Wes and Lilah Why???

That's Lilah for you. She was never a hypocrite. And that is what I loved about her. It's interesting that Wes did most of his maturing, during his relationship with her. It's too bad that he never appreciated it.
 
I miss Lilah. 🙁 She took on Angelus with a glock and a gut wound, that's gotta get some respect. Stephanie Romanov should be in more things. If only because she has an excellent shouting name. "I'm Stephanie Damn Romanov! Step aside weakling!"

"Holy God! It's Stephanie Romanov stomping Tokyo!"

"I am Stephanie Romanoov! Prepare to die!"

(*Note to self: Get impressive name.)
 
Jill_Valentine said:
I miss Lilah. 🙁 She took on Angelus with a glock and a gut wound, that's gotta get some respect. Stephanie Romanov should be in more things. If only because she has an excellent shouting name. "I'm Stephanie Damn Romanov! Step aside weakling!"

"Holy God! It's Stephanie Romanov stomping Tokyo!"

"I am Stephanie Romanoov! Prepare to die!"

(*Note to self: Get impressive name.)
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Check out her portrayal of Jackie Kennedy in "Thirteen Days". Although her scenes were brief, she had the former First Lady down pat.
 
Watching this relationship develop was different. In the beginning it was cold then it got intimate. I found myself thinking "if only she was good," but she wasn't. She was not fighting on the right side(Good). Wesley made a mature decision letting Lilah go. His speech in Habeas Corpses really explains this relationship and why it couldn't last.
 
Blessed said:
Watching this relationship develop was different. In the beginning it was cold then it got intimate. I found myself thinking "if only she was good," but she wasn't. She was not fighting on the right side(Good). Wesley made a mature decision letting Lilah go. His speech in Habeas Corpses really explains this relationship and why it couldn't last.
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The fact that Wesley used morality as a reason to break up with Lilah only told me that he was lying to himself. Frankly, it's a poor excuse.

It's a bad mistake to use morality as a basis for love. It's an illusion that usually doesn't work in the end, because love isn't about good or evil. It's about connecting with someone, regardless of his or her moral stance. And sticking by that person. Wes fooled himself that he couldn't love Lilah, because she was "evil". In the end, he realized that he loved her, regardless of her moral stance. But it was too late, because she was dead and he never gave himself a chance to be honest about his feelings. And in the end, Wesley proved that he was no more of a "White Hat" than Lilah was.
 
LadyLavinia said:
The fact that Wesley used morality as a reason to break up with Lilah only told me that he was lying to himself. Frankly, it's a poor excuse.

It's a bad mistake to use morality as a basis for love. It's an illusion that usually doesn't work in the end, because love isn't about good or evil. It's about connecting with someone, regardless of his or her moral stance. And sticking by that person. Wes fooled himself that he couldn't love Lilah, because she was "evil". In the end, he realized that he loved her, regardless of her moral stance. But it was too late, because she was dead and he never gave himself a chance to be honest about his feelings. And in the end, Wesley proved that he was no more of a "White Hat" than Lilah was.
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Though you do make sense. The good/evil thing should have its boundaries. Buffy was not in love with Spike during Season 6. The episode As You Were really shows how Buffy was not being true to herself by having these feelings for Spike. Spike made her look like a fool. She tries to do good and he is pulling something evil behind her back. Evil is evil. There is not trust with evil and therefore there can be no True-Love relationship. Plus, in the episode Seeing Red Spike, being evil, tried to rape Buffy. It was his way of showing affection. It would not work. Another example would be in Charmed. Phoebe was in love with the source of evi. It is selfish to love someon that ries to kill innocent and good people. She couldn't lve her life normally. If Lilah would have stayed alive I do not believe she would have been a faithful person for Wesley to love. She would have done something totally inappropriate b/c she played for evil.
 
Ah, Cathy and Heathcliff. Disastrous together, but doomed to each other.

It's not selfish to love somebody because of what they do or say. It's not entirely a choice. It is selfish if you let it affect your judgement when other people stand to suffer.

They both seemed to distinguish between "work" and "love" life. They didn't really seem take it personally if one betrayed the other. Lilah even seemed amused by the concept of Fresley, and didn't doubt that Wesley would be hers how it counted. And lets face it, of the many things Lilah was, she wasn't the borderline psychotic in the relationship. She was more or less consistent in her behaviour. For Lilah, that is normal. She didn't make excuses for who or what she was, and never even made an attempt to blend in with the good guys (Unless you count her failed attempt to make coffee) To paraphrase Jack Sparrow, she's dishonest, and could always be trusted to be dishonest...
 
The good/evil thing should have its boundaries. Buffy was not in love with Spike during Season 6. The episode As You Were really shows how Buffy was not being true to herself by having these feelings for Spike. Spike made her look like a fool. She tries to do good and he is pulling something evil behind her back. Evil is evil.


It seems as if you're still trying to mix love and morality together. Like I said before, it's illusional. Wes was being illusional in regard to his feelings about Lilah. And Buffy was being the same, in regard to Spike. In fact, she was still fooling herself, when she broke up with Spike in "As You Were". And that became obvious, when she expressed jealousy over the date Spike had brought to Xander and Anya's wedding in "Hell's Bells" and when Spike and Anya slept together in "Entropy".

And I have doubts that Wes was ever really in love with Fred. At least not the "real" Fred. I think he was in love with an illusion he had of Fred, as some embodiment of goodness. He would have eventually become disallusioned with her, as he did in the S4 episode, "Players".
 
Wesley was definetly in love with Fred. He really appreciated the person she was. He loved her beauty, her intelligence, it was beyond connection. Meaning...True Love. Of course there are always obstacles True Love must face. Gunn was competition. And in the end he would have sacrificed himself for Fred. Lilah may have been evil but if she ever changed from her ways there could have been hope for her and Wes. The most Lilah and Wes could have had together was lust with some basic human compassion.

But hello...remember Seeing Red. "Ask me again why I could never love you!" She couldn't love a being that could not truly understand the concept of Love. Evil can not understand Love which is an emotion of good.
 
Blessed said:
Wesley was definetly in love with Fred. He really appreciated the person she was. He loved her beauty, her intelligence, it was beyond connection. Meaning...True Love. Of course there are always obstacles True Love must face. Gunn was competition. And in the end he would have sacrificed himself for Fred. Lilah may have been evil but if she ever changed from her ways there could have been hope for her and Wes. The most Lilah and Wes could have had together was lust with some basic human compassion.

But hello...remember Seeing Red. "Ask me again why I could never love you!" She couldn't love a being that could not truly understand the concept of Love. Evil can not understand Love which is an emotion of good.
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If you want to wallow in the illusions of Wes/Fred, be my guest. Don't expect me to agree with you. But I suggest you check out the late S5 episode, in which Wes had a dream about Fred that revealed his epiphany that he didn't really know her. And you also might want to take into account that the conversation he and Fred had in "Players" led to him realizing that he never really knew her. He may have lost his memory of that conversation, since it began with the topic of CONNOR and Cordelia. In it, Wes realized that Fred was not the woman he had imagined her to be and that she was very naive and rather narrow-minded.

As for your comments about Buffy, I'm sorry but not even her comments in "Seeing Red" could refute her actions later in "Villains" when she returned to Spike's crypt for him to take care of Dawn or her reaction when she learned that he had left. Nor could it refute her actions toward him in the following S7.
 
I'm gonna go all cliche' here but in the end it you really can't help who you fall in love wirh weather there black or white, good or evil, bad for you or blahhh blahhh lost train of thought....
 
P
PrincessCrayon
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I don't think what Wes and Lilah had was "love." Wesley and Lilah were simply using eachother. It was mostly a phisical need/desire than anything though the other fator in the mix was information really them being together had nothing to do with love. At least that's how I saw it.
 
Asmiley said:
I don't think what Wes and Lilah had was "love." Wesley and Lilah were simply using eachother. It was mostly a phisical need/desire than anything though the other fator in the mix was information really them being together had nothing to do with love. At least that's how I saw it.
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That's how their relationship started out. It eventually became love. Unfortunately, neither had the guts to admit that one was in love with the other.
 
Why are evil creatures automatically incapable of love? Hitler loved, and he was unquestionably monstrous. To deem someone incapable of love in one sense purely because they've shown hate in many others is surely an overly simplistic view.
 
H
hazzard
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After completely rewatching S4, I really don't believe Wes loved Lilah because he was so consumed by Fred and Lilah couldn't match up. I think Wes cared about Lilah and had even, by the end, come to respect her...but I don't believe it was love (IMO)
 
I don't think Lilah was ever evil.
She was a scared woman who worked for evil because it was a way to survive. Lilah never belived that good could win, and frankly she had no reason to belive this. Whenever she discovered that demons were real she couldn't have had friends around her like Buffy's group who might make the world seam less dark and the task of fighting against supernatural evil less difficult. Lilah picked the side most likely to win. Once she knew about the supernatural, being in W&H was a good way to stay alive and maintain control, and Lilah craves control. I think W&H was her solution to a scarry world. She had to side with the big evil so that the little evils couldn't kill her. Lilah also knew what type of bargin she was making. I think it is important to distinguish between characters who are evil and characters that serve evil. While in W&H, Lilah was very professional. She did her job and didn't torture or kill people unnecessarily. In other words, she caused others pain but didn't take pleasure in it. Lilah was a basically good woman who served evil and was d*mn good at it.

I agree that Lilah and Wesley's relationship was increadibly complicated. On some level I think he wanted to save her. On another, he understood that she was the only person he knew who understood him. Lilah and Wesley both have darkness inside and were both honest enough to admit it. Their relationship was a mature relationship among equals. However, Wesley was still ambivalent about his own darkness and thought that if he admited that he loved her he would become evil by not rejecting "evil." Also, Lilah was a forbidden passion, if his friends ever found out they would have been disgusted and reject him. Although he was already isolated because of what he did with Connor, Wesley couldn't handle further rejection. These factors made his relationship "dangerous" but didn't diminish its validity.

As for Lilah, she loved Wesley. Lilah was never dead inside or cold. She just became conditioned after serving W&H not to think about people as individuals and instead do her job, sort of like a comander in a battle who sacrifices people to win. Lilah clearly loved Wesley, possibly because loving him was defying W&H and finding a little bit of freedom. She certainly loved him simply because he was Wesley.
 
From "Salvage":


CUT TO:
5 INT. HYPERION HOTEL"” BASEMENT"” NIGHT 5
Wesley sits in the dark, staring at Lilah's body. After a moment, he stands
up and unwraps the plastic. He lifts the axe and looks down at her. As he
brushes the hair from her face, her eyes open and she smiles at him.
LILAH
Why so glum? It is kind of what you wanted, isn't it? I
mean, deep down. Me out of the picture. Utterly"¦
finally"¦ you can't get utter than this. It makes your life
simpler, doesn't it? Cleaner?
WESLEY
I didn't want this..

She sits up and shrugs off the plastic.
LILAH
Come on, what are you worried about, Wesley? You
hated yourself for being with me. Or maybe, you just
hated yourself for loving being with me. Hey, semantics.
In any case, we both knew sooner or later it would come
to messy end. For one of us, anyway.
She gets up and walks around behind him.
LILAH
So ease up on that furrowed brow. You're free now. No
longer encumbered with the secret shame of our
relationship.
WESLEY
It wasn't a relationship.
LILAH
There's a signed dollar bill in your wallet I think proves
different. (beat) You knew how I felt.
WESLEY
You don't feel.
LILAH
The only true thing I ever"”
He turns away.
WESLEY
You didn't love me!
And Lilah is back on the table, cold and still..
WESLEY
You couldn't.
She walks out of the shadows behind him again.
LILAH
We'll never know now, will we?"


Why was Wesley so determined to convince Lilah's ghost (actually himself) that Lilah never loved him, in this scene? Why not simply state that "he never loved her" or that "they never loved each other"?
 
LadyLavinia said:
Why was Wesley so determined to convince Lilah's ghost (actually himself) that Lilah never loved him, in this scene? Why not simply state that "he never loved her" or that "they never loved each other"?
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At that point Wesley knew that he loved her, he couldn't deny his feelings. Lilah's death was terrible for Wesley. He most have thought that if Lilah had loved him, her death would have been even worse somehow.

Wesley failed to save Lilah. I think that this is related to why he was desperate to deny her love for him. As long as Lilah didn't love him, as long as she was using him, as long as she didn't depend on him, his failure was not quite so great. If Lilah didn't love Wesley then their relationship wasn't real. However, if she loved him, Wesley might have lost his only chance at a good life. He might have been able to save Lilah from the evil in the world and in herself and begin a new life with her. It was vitally important for Wesley to deny that Lilah loved him because if she had loved him his loss (and his failure) would have been much greater.
 
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