Wes and Lilah Why???

Going with that same train of thought, he probably wanted to convince himself that she never loved him so that he wouldn't have to feel as though he had failed her.
 
H
Hitome
Great avatar, Farscape rocks!!
LadyLavinia said:
If you want to wallow in the illusions of Wes/Fred, be my guest. Don't expect me to agree with you. But I suggest you check out the late S5 episode, in which Wes had a dream about Fred that revealed his epiphany that he didn't really know her. And you also might want to take into account that the conversation he and Fred had in "Players" led to him realizing that he never really knew her. He may have lost his memory of that conversation, since it began with the topic of CONNOR and Cordelia. In it, Wes realized that Fred was not the woman he had imagined her to be and that she was very naive and rather narrow-minded.

As for your comments about Buffy, I'm sorry but not even her comments in "Seeing Red" could refute her actions later in "Villains" when she returned to Spike's crypt for him to take care of Dawn or her reaction when she learned that he had left. Nor could it refute her actions toward him in the following S7.
I'm confused...What "late season 5 ep" where he had a dream? I don't remember anything like that.

Oh, ok, it was in Underneath. I'd forgotten that part. Players I remembered but that was way before AHITW so it can't really be counted. That was like what, a year before? Things can change though I really am not sure how fast, that part's up for discussion.

I still say it's not an "illusion" though, they were in love. What I do see though is that there may have been some idealism, loving of the image each had of the other, on both sides in the mix rather than straight loving each other for what they really were.

And Lilah-I think he cared about her and he he wanted to and hoped to redeem her-he said that in argh, I forgot the ep, the one where he cut Lilah's head off. But I didn't see them ever really loving each other either. He was feeling bad about the late S3 events and kinda got into a cycle of seeing Lilah and feeling better during the encounter but then afterward he felt bad again about seeing her so he saw her again to feel better.

Actually that's not mine, I picked it up from one of the novels I think....so I know those aren't canon, I just happened to see it the same way.
 
Watcher's Pet said:
I'm confused...What "late season 5 ep" where he had a dream? I don't remember anything like that.

Oh, ok, it was in Underneath. I'd forgotten that part. Players I remembered but that was way before AHITW so it can't really be counted. That was like what, a year before? Things can change though I really am not sure how fast, that part's up for discussion.

I still say it's not an "illusion" though, they were in love. What I do see though is that there may have been some idealism, loving of the image each had of the other, on both sides in the mix rather than straight loving each other for what they really were.

And Lilah-I think he cared about her and he he wanted to and hoped to redeem her-he said that in argh, I forgot the ep, the one where he cut Lilah's head off. But I didn't see them ever really loving each other either. He was feeling bad about the late S3 events and kinda got into a cycle of seeing Lilah and feeling better during the encounter but then afterward he felt bad again about seeing her so he saw her again to feel better.

Actually that's not mine, I picked it up from one of the novels I think....so I know those aren't canon, I just happened to see it the same way.


I'm referring to the S5 episode, "Underneath" (5.17).

Yes, he and Lilah did fall in love one another. Both were too afraid to admit it openly. After Lilah's death, Wes had something of a pyschotic episode, just before he chopped off her neck. He had imagined himself talking to her - or her corpse. And one of the things he had accused her off was not loving him. Now, I found that odd. If Wesley had never really loved Lilah, why was it so important to him that she was in love with him?

In "Players", Wesley and Fred had first discussed Cordelia's affair with Connor. The conversation eventually led to Wes' affair with Lilah. Fred had seemed disgusted with the affair and could not understand how he could have feelings for Lilah other than hate. Wesley tried to explain what led to the affair, but he seemed disappointed by Fred's naivety and inability to understand adult relationships.
 
The obvious reason is because they were unbelievably hot together.

And now for the serious, studious answer...

I didn't see Lilah as evil. W&H didn't represent some supernatural evil. Remember: in the Buffyverse, mystical evil things are really metaphors for real things. At the end, they basically came out and stated that W&H represented the corporate corruption that is slowly taking over the world. Lilah, in my opinion, represented people who are taken in by that corporate culture. They still have lives and feelings, but the corporate culture does not allow for that. The corporation wanted her constantly on call. It wanted her to be entirely devoted to it. It didn't want her to have a separate private life, hence the business-related double cross. W&H wanted its employees' souls, not just in the Buffy-verse meaning of the word, but also in the real-word meaning. There is also an interesting feminist subtext to this because, as a woman, Lilah had to work harder and give more in order to succeed at the top level of the corporate environment and, also in a work-related incident, she had to rise up against a misogynistic man from a powerful family. Her love life was always under scrutiny -- to the extent that Gavin even made fun of her because she hardly ever had lovers. To make it at W&H, Lilah had to stop being Lilah and become W&H.

But real life doesn't work that way. Lilah couldn't turn off Lilah the woman in order to be Lilah, W&H employee. She couldn't devote herself entirely to corporate culture. She grew to love Wesley even though he didn't fit the mold.

Wes, for his part, had a similar experience. He tried to do what he thought was right. But he ended up betrayed, nearly killed (twice), and friendless for his trouble. As a result, he tried to cut himself off from human contact and emotion. And then, there was Lilah. At first, that seemed ideal: a no strings-attached sexual release with a woman who didn't love him, so couldn't hurt him. But then he saw a side of her that no one else saw: the horny side, yeah, but also the side that cuddled and giggled over the word "relationship." She became someone he couldn't just use. She re-established his connection to humanity. She became someone that he couldn't just let die. He saw her as separate from - perhaps even more than - W&H. So when W&H went down, he went in after her. In coming to terms with the contradictions in Lilah's character - the contradictions that made her able to connect with him despite being W&H girl - he came to terms with the contradictions in the characters of his friends that had enabled them to abandon him. Through his relationship with Lilah, he began to see people not as "good" or "bad," but as complex and valuable for those complexities.

Was this love? I don't know. But that doesn't so much matter. What matters is that it had value for both of them. It was something that they needed. And they grew as people because of their connection. Whatever you want to call it, they were important to each other. It's not fair to belittle that connection just because it started with sex and desperation. The point is that it grew to mean more.
 
I loved Wes&Lilah together. The whole relationship made me like the character Lilah for more than just comic relief or an advance in the plot. It also emphasized how many layers Wesley had, where before we only saw Head Boy of the Watchers, we were revealed to so many deep layers of maturity. Loved it!
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Total agreement!
I enjoyed Wes and Lilah as a couple, because they were one of the very few Jossverse couples that seemed real to me, instead of some forced, ideal couple.
 
Ok sorry if this has been up before but I was Wondering why did Wes and Lilah get together (or whatever you want to call it)... ??? I was watching S3 of Angel and I just thought why would either Wes or Lilah want to be with the other they both seem to hate each outer. :: P?:: So why?? Hope you guys can help me out... :help:
They wanted each other. Simple as that. I think theirs was one of those relationships that developed into "love" later.

Hey, hate can often turn into love. Case in point: Spuffy 🙂

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

I enjoyed Wes and Lilah as a couple, because they were one of the very few Jossverse couples that seemed real to me, instead of some forced, ideal couple.

Interesting comment. I wouldn't say Spuffy was ideal, would you? As much as I love them, it did seem forced and certainly out of character for Buff at the time - don't you think? Also - Cordelia and Xander? Never really clicked in my book.
 
Ok sorry if this has been up before but I was Wondering why did Wes and Lilah get together (or whatever you want to call it)... ??? I was watching S3 of Angel and I just thought why would either Wes or Lilah want to be with the other they both seem to hate each outer. :: P?:: So why?? Hope you guys can help me out... :help:


Wes lost the woman of his dreams, Fred, to Gunn. I never like the whole idea of Fred/Gunn pairing. They had no chemistry at all and took way too long for it too end. Gunn was just a roadblock between Wes and Fred.

Wes then was kicked off the team because he thought he was doing the right thing. He was alone. He had nobody.

Then came Lilah. At first, it was just sex. Nothing more. After that, it became more. Both started to love one another but were afraid to tell one another how they feel. It's that love/hate relationship which worked really well. Wes/Lilah had better chemistry than Fred/Gunn any day.

Lilah loved Wes more than he loved her. Wes's true love is with Fred and Lilah knew that.

When Wes had to chop Lilah's head off, it took him along time, because, even though they had broken up, he still loved her and had feelings for her. And it was hard for him that he couldn't save her at the end.
 
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