Wes/Fred Love - Epitome of Immaturity

[LadyLavinia]

"Wes and Fred!!! Anyway love is a sort of obsesion, and even if he was, she loved him too so it would have worked, they would have made it work... it's almost funny Spoiler - Highlight to view: My aussie friend was watching Shells and was like, there not gonna put Wes and Illyria together are they?... I think Illyria and Spike would make a good ship... WES/FRED together forever... maybe . . ."

Fred didn't love Wes. She LUSTED after him. Deep down, Fred simply wanted someone by her side, so that she wouldn't be lonely. She got tired of Knox and set her sights on Wes, simply because she discovered in "Lineage" that the dumb idiot was obssessed and infatuted with her.

And why on earth do you think that obssessive love would work?

 

[DáNió]

I actually thing she loved him. I also think Illyria and Spike would make a good ship aswel..

 

[LadyLavinia]

I actually thing she loved him. I also think Illyria and Spike would make a good ship aswel..

Sorry, but I disagree about Fred's feelings for Wes. What I saw on the screen was a woman harboring a teenaged lust for a man she thinks is some kind of knight-in-shinning armor/father figure. I'm not joking. Watch Fred's reactions regarding Wes in "You're Welcome" and "Harm's Way".

As for Illyria and Spike - I don't think Spike should hang around a woman who likes to use him as a punching bag.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

And why on earth do you think that obssessive love would work?

Do you or do you not agree that Spike loved Buffy in season 5 (of Buffy)? he was obsessed (and to some point still is) with her am I wrong? Angel has an obsession with her as well, he had people watching her right up till the girl in question, yet no one dissagrees that they loved Buffy and still do.

B/S he went to get his soul back because he was in love with and obsessed with Buffy, the only reason it didn't work was because Spike died saving the world.

B/A they had a love at first site type love. I'll admit in my mind, their love was less mature than W/F's love. They did however love each other. Their love didn't work because of the curse his love with her (only IMO though) was too pure (if this makes sense if not I'll explan more later) therfore being pure true love as adolecent love often is, he loses his soul to perfect happiness and being that Buffy made him too happy, and he'd lose his soul it couldn't work.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Do you or do you not agree that Spike loved Buffy in season 5 (of Buffy)? he was obsessed (and to some point still is) with her am I wrong? Angel has an obsession with her as well, he had people watching her right up till the girl in question, yet no one dissagrees that they loved Buffy and still do.

B/S he went to get his soul back because he was in love with and obsessed with Buffy, the only reason it didn't work was because Spike died saving the world.

B/A they had a love at first site type love. I'll admit in my mind, their love was less mature than W/F's love. They did however love each other. Their love didn't work because of the curse his love with her (only IMO though) was too pure (if this makes sense if not I'll explan more later) therfore being pure true love as adolecent love often is, he loses his soul to perfect happiness and being that Buffy made him too happy, and he'd lose his soul it couldn't work.

1. Yes, Spike was obssessed over Buffy in S5. And in S6.

2. Spike got his soul, because he felt guilty over the attempted rape and wanted Buffy to have a relationship with the kind of guy he thought she deserved.

3. Spike's obssession ended after he got the soul. Instead, he and Buffy managed to form a close friendship, along with a warm romance by the end of S7.

4. Buffy and Angel's romance was more mature than Wes and Fred's. Even though they idealized each other, they were more aware of each other's flaws. Something that even Wes and Fred were incapable of achieving - without a cursed soul hanging over their heads.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Okay, I guess we agree to dissagree (even though saying this you'll reply something else saying why it's not true) I think that Buffy and Angels relationship was less mature because Buffy was at the time, but you dislike strongly aperently the Wes/Fred thing while I find it cute and romantic. like I have said it's not my favorite but, whatever.

 

[Magui]

Well,I like dancing on tables,it's not cute,romantic and it doesn't make any sence but I like it...who cares if Fresley didn't make sence(which is not true)?,normal people like it,why do you always have to disagree with everyone?.
But,okay,if you wanna *Tries not to use the word 'argue'* discuss the situation,let's do it!,it could be fun!

Fred didn't love Wes.

Fred did love Wesley,people have different ways of showing love,if you think that love is trying to rape the person you 'love',okay,fine...I think that Fred's way of acting towards Wes meant that she loved him.

Buffy and Angel's romance was more mature than Wes and Fred's.

I disagree. Buffy and Angel were together during more than 2 years,things didn't work out because of..well,we all know the reasons.
Fred and Wes didn't have the change to be together becuse she died.You don't know what would have happened if she would have lived.

She LUSTED after him.

''Hey Wes!. Before our relationship gets more mature I think you should know that I don't find you attractive at all. We will never have sex cuz I don't lust after you. Love means smoochies...not literal ones becuase ya know,tongues,mouths,eww,don't want body contact honey...but,oh,yeah,as I was saying I do love you,I'm just inlove with your brain,cuz bodies and stuff..eww.''
''Well,can I at least kiss you?''
''No!!!,no contact,we love each other remember?!.Love means no flesh-flesh,do get what I mean?''
''Yes,..but,no,in fact I don't...why can't we do it if we love each other?''
''Haven't you read LadyLavinia Holy Bible?.Sex is wrong,you can't have sex when you're inlove. You should act like a priest''
''Oh,well...I don't wanna sound mean,I do love you Fred,I don't care about that kind of contact neither,,...but,did you say 'never'?''
''Yes,we will never have sex because we will always love each other''
''Gosh,this is like curse''

She got tired of Knox and set her sights on Wes, simply because she discovered in "Lineage" that the dumb idiot was obssessed and infatuted with her.

Angelus told her what Wes felt about her in S4 before she met Knox. *Magui thinks 'Buy a memory'*
She knew what Wes felt,she jsut wasn't ready to be with him.

And why on earth do you think that obssessive love would work?

You said Wes was obsessed with her. Fred wasn't obssessed with him,she just love him. It's not an obsessive love. And,no,I don't think it'd work because they are both dead,remember?

Sorry, but I disagree about Fred's feelings for Wes. What I saw on the screen was a woman harboring a teenaged lust for a man she thinks is some kind of knight-in-shinning armor/father figure. I'm not joking. Watch Fred's reactions regarding Wes in "You're Welcome" and "Harm's Way".

Watch Cordelia's reaction in BTVS S3 when Xander teold teh Gang that Angel was alive. Cordelia was like 'Yeah,let's kill the bloody vamp!'. Do you have to tell you that Cordelia ended up loving Angel with all her heart?,or you wanna 'discuss' Cangel too?

As for Illyria and Spike - I don't think Spike should hang around a woman who likes to use him as a punching bag.

*Cough* Spuffy *Cough* S6 *Cough*

1. Yes, Spike was obssessed over Buffy in S5. And in S6.

In fact he's been obsessed with her since her met her in S2

2. Spike got his soul, because he felt guilty over the attempted rape and wanted Buffy to have a relationship with the kind of guy he thought she deserved.

He didn't want a soul in,he wanted his chip out. But let's pretend he did want the soul. He wanted to Buffy understand that he can be as good as Angel and that if she loved Angel once she could have loved him too.

3. Spike's obssession ended after he got the soul. Instead, he and Buffy managed to form a close friendship, along with a warm romance by the end of S7.

That is not true,he didn't want to be her friend,he wanted to be with her,he just didn't care about sex so much like in S6

 

[LadyLavinia]

Okay, I guess we agree to dissagree (even though saying this you'll reply something else saying why it's not true) I think that Buffy and Angels relationship was less mature because Buffy was at the time, but you dislike strongly aperently the Wes/Fred thing while I find it cute and romantic. like I have said it's not my favorite but, whatever.

Yes, I disliked the Wes/Fred romance. They're boring. I just found it ridiculous that two adults - a man in his 30s and a woman in his 20s - acting like teenagers. Even worse, they were in love with idealized images of each other, not the real man or woman. It was boring and forced. And if Fred had not died - either that relationship would have ended . . . or Whedon would have forced it to continue, because Fred Burkle is one of his favorite characters.

 

[Magui]

Yes, I disliked the Wes/Fred romance.

You dislike what people like

They're boring.

That's your opinion,I found the relationshio extremely interesting

I just found it ridiculous that two adults - a man in his 30s and a woman in his 20s - acting like teenagers.

`

Uh-huh..but you don't complain about Spike argueing about cavemen and astronauts with Angel. They are not teenagers,believe me. The situation was kinda childish(and sexy!!!) tough
I don't think that Wes and Fred acted childish.

Even worse, they were in love with idealized images of each other, not the real man or woman.

Whatever,you love the good things in a person,not the bad ones. Didn't you say that Fred wasn't inlove with Wesley?.

It was boring and forced.

Not boring at all to me. Forced?,Wes loved Fred since S3,forced is something that happens from one moment to the other and no one likes it. A lot of people like Fresley a ship that improved slowly

And if Fred had not died - either that relationship would have ended . . . or Whedon would have forced it to continue, because Fred Burkle is one of his favorite characters.

''Fred is my favourite character,I think I will make be with a guy that she doesn't lvoe or even like.Oh,yeah,me,genious''

 

[Xander]

Wes and Fred weren't obsessed with each other, they fancied each other greatly but never really acted on it (bar the kiss in S4). Just because you fancy someone doesn't mean you are obsessed. I fancy someone at work and my friends know that (and she probably does as well, everyone fancies her). I talk to her and I'm nice to her. That's friendship. I don't sit outside her house, I don't stalk her, I don't phone her all the time, I don't take photos of her. That's obsession.

If Fred had lusted after Wes she would of taken him to bed when they got together and Wes would of said yes (wouldn't you?). Yet in AHITW Wes comes up with a reason to go see her, I think they were way before sex. Fred had an attraction, was it the most adult no but Fred had a lot of her adult life taken away from her, let her indulge in acting younger then she is. She had to grow up quickly, she was smart and skipped out a few years at school (Amy said in an interview) then was sucked into Pylea. When she returned she was slightly crazy as so to speak and she could of gone off, joint a science group or something but she wanted to endulge in acting a bit younger while she could.

And why on earth do you think that obssessive love would work?

You're a Spuffy fan, you tell us!

Whedon would have forced it to continue, because Fred Burkle is one of his favorite characters

I believe Whedon loves all his characters, besides he wrote one episode in S4 and two in S5 and only one delt with Fresley so try and blame the other writers if you're going to moan. Whedon's a great guy but he doesn't write all the episode.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Uh-huh..but you don't complain about Spike argueing about cavemen and astronauts with Angel. They are not teenagers,believe me. The situation was kinda childish(and sexy!!!) tough

Yeah I love that argument LOL

Not boring at all to me. Forced?,Wes loved Fred since S3,forced is something that happens from one moment to the other and no one likes it. A lot of people like Fresley a ship that improved slowly

that's exactly what I think!

''Fred is my favourite character,I think I will make be with a guy that she doesn't lvoe or even like.Oh,yeah,me,genious''

LOL

You're a Spuffy fan, you tell us!

Spuffy is THE most obsessive ship I have ever seen on any TV show... I mean it's one of my favorites LOL but still totally obsessive.

 

[Fat Elvis 007]

For once I have to agree with LadyLavinia. Wesley's feelings for Fred have always seemed a little creepy to me. Which was fine in early S3 when the show treated it as if it were creepy, but in S5 it was supposed to be sweet and that only made it even creepier. Like Lavinia said, they suffered from the Niles/Daphne syndrome: They were in love with the fantasy of being together, not the reality. That, and both characters kind of annoy me. I'm not trying to argue with anyone who is a Fresley shipper, this is just my humble opinion.

Magui, I may be wrong, but I thought Joss confirmed that Spike went to Africa to get his soul back. And Spike is constantly talking about how he chose to get his soul back. Do you think he is lying about this? Why?

 

[Xander]

they suffered from the Niles/Daphne syndrome: They were in love with the fantasy of being together, not the reality.Magui, I may be wrong, but I thought Joss confirmed that Spike went to Africa to get his soul back. And Spike is constantly talking about how he chose to get his soul back. Do you think he is lying about this? Why?

Niles was in love with a fantasy but Daphne wasn't. Besides that all worked out and they had a nice red ribbon ending in the finale.

 

[Jacklyn]

It's funny that people think that Fresley was forced-I always felt like Fred and Gunn was forced on us....

 

[Fat Elvis 007]

Niles was in love with a fantasy but Daphne wasn't. Besides that all worked out and they had a nice red ribbon ending in the finale.

Yeah, maybe my metaphor was a little off. The thing about Niles and Daphne was that they actually grew to love each other for what they really were. We never saw this happen with Fresley.

 

[Hitome]

I know that I am in the extreme minority, but like LadyLavinia and Fat Elvis 007 I find Wesley and Fred's relationship very disturbing. I you don't instead of automatically disagreeing with me try to understand where I'm coming from. I really don't have a problem that Fred is childish in her view of love, after all she lost most of her young adulthood in Pylea. I worry about Fred, however, because she tends to idealize the men she loves, which in my opinion makes her relationships less interesting. I enjoy couples who banter, and know each other very well. That's why I love Cory and Angel's interaction and wanted them to become a couple even though I adore Cordeila and don't much care for Angel.

Wesley has always seemed creepy to me. He is stalker material. Just because he didn't follow Fred around or steal her panties (souless Spike!) doesn't mean that he wasn't obsessed. That Wesley has enough control not to completely freak out the girl he wants doesn't mean that he isn't sick. Wesley is one of my favorite characters because he is so complex and because although he is not a good man he works for good.

Wesley is authoritarian, he has hidden rage issues. Watch any episode that mentions Wesley's father and you will see what I mean. In addition, Wesley is extremely possessive of Fred while she is dating Gunn. It doesn't matter what he thought of their relationship, Wesley had no right to claim Fred, who is not a possession but instead a person, as his own.

Would you date someone who had sex with his girlfriend while pretending she was you? Doesn't that give you a nasty feeling in the pit of your stomach? Doesn't that disturb you? It freaks me out. Wesley wanted to screw Fred. He wanted to own Fred. Then she starts dating him and you think its romantic. Why???

Spike at least was souless while stalking Buffy. Wesley had no excuse for his bizare behavior.

 

[Xander]

Would you date someone who had sex with his girlfriend while pretending she was you? Doesn't that give you a nasty feeling in the pit of your stomach? Doesn't that disturb you? It freaks me out. Wesley wanted to screw Fred. He wanted to own Fred. Then she starts dating him and you think its romantic. Why???

Saying that Spike got Harmony to dress up as Buffy, theres some interesting parallels.

Screwing does not mean owning, yes he wanted her to be all his but if he was that bothered he would of tried to break up Gunn and Fred (well at least tried quicker) and Knox as well. I think Wes did love fred innocently but expressed it wrong. Best intentions and all that. I can see the creeper stalkeriness but hey, when is moderation attraction with no strong interest ever good TV?

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Saying that Spike got Harmony to dress up as Buffy, theres some interesting parallels.

Yeah! Spike was more obsessed with Buffy, he's the king of it.

 

[Xander]

It's interesting, Spike was more obsessive with Buffy and we found that interesting and almost sweet (in an odd way but nothings pure and 1920s like any more) yet with Wes its childish and sick.

 

[WatcherWes]

I agree that the Wes/Fred romance was ridiculous and boring. That's what made Fred's deathbed scenes in A Hole in the World so tedious. I found Shells to be a much better episode than A Hole in the World simply because it was the first episode where we could move past the banal Wes/Fred stuff.