Wes/Fred Love - Epitome of Immaturity

FahrbotDrusilla said:
Do you or do you not agree that Spike loved Buffy in season 5 (of Buffy)? he was obsessed (and to some point still is) with her am I wrong? Angel has an obsession with her as well, he had people watching her right up till the girl in question, yet no one dissagrees that they loved Buffy and still do.
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I'll Disagree.

Buffy loved Angel, but was able to get over him after "I Will Remember You". Their kiss in "Chosen" was less of a passionate kiss and more of a "hello" as Buffy so aptly put it. By then she had had enough time away from him that she was comfortable near him in a casual setting, and was able to see past their previous relationship to his abilities as a champion and where they would be most useful.

Angel loved Buffy, but he was also a little obsessive from the beginning, a trait mirrored in his relationship with Darla ("The Girl in Question"). This is most likely a result of living his entire life and two thirds of his un-life in a time and culture in which women were generally considered property. His love for Buffy seemed to follow his grasp of his mission, though: he was most obsessive and controlling when he was evil (see BtVS, S2), and when he was corrupted by Wolfram and Hart ("The Girl in Question").

Buffy never loved Spike. In seasons four and five she tolerated him because he was an asset in the fight against evil, but barely. In season 6 she was only seeking to drown out her emotional angst with physical pain (like the teens who indulge in self-mutilation). Even later on, when she snuggled against him in "Touched" it was as a friend and confidant, not a lover. Even Spike realized that by the end, when she said that she loved him in "Chosen", and he replied that she didn't, not really.

Spike never loved Buffy. His obsession with her was simply a continuation of his obsession with slayers in general, stemming from as far back as 1880. He once confided to Angelus that there was nothing so thrilling ot him as a fight he didn't know he would win, and his entire relationship with Buffy was just that. It was only after he could no longer attack her in battle that his obsession turned lustful.
 
eset said:
I'll Disagree.

Buffy loved Angel, but was able to get over him after "I Will Remember You". Their kiss in "Chosen" was less of a passionate kiss and more of a "hello" as Buffy so aptly put it. By then she had had enough time away from him that she was comfortable near him in a casual setting, and was able to see past their previous relationship to his abilities as a champion and where they would be most useful.

Angel loved Buffy, but he was also a little obsessive from the beginning, a trait mirrored in his relationship with Darla ("The Girl in Question"). This is most likely a result of living his entire life and two thirds of his un-life in a time and culture in which women were generally considered property. His love for Buffy seemed to follow his grasp of his mission, though: he was most obsessive and controlling when he was evil (see BtVS, S2), and when he was corrupted by Wolfram and Hart ("The Girl in Question").

Buffy never loved Spike. In seasons four and five she tolerated him because he was an asset in the fight against evil, but barely. In season 6 she was only seeking to drown out her emotional angst with physical pain (like the teens who indulge in self-mutilation). Even later on, when she snuggled against him in "Touched" it was as a friend and confidant, not a lover. Even Spike realized that by the end, when she said that she loved him in "Chosen", and he replied that she didn't, not really.

Spike never loved Buffy. His obsession with her was simply a continuation of his obsession with slayers in general, stemming from as far back as 1880. He once confided to Angelus that there was nothing so thrilling ot him as a fight he didn't know he would win, and his entire relationship with Buffy was just that. It was only after he could no longer attack her in battle that his obsession turned lustful.
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Sorry honey, I disagree. Just because Buffy didn't shout in teenaged angst, "Spike, I love you!" like she did with Angel, doesn't mean that she didn't love him. She did. Too many people paid more attention to what came out of her mouth, than her actions in S6 and S7.

As for Spike - I don't know how you came to your opinion that he didn't love Buffy, but I think you need to watch BUFFY again.
 
After finishing up S4, I really do think Wesley honestly cared about Fred, to the point at which you can assume he loved her (as we don't get inside their heads, we don't know for sure). His affair with Lilah is something that just happened...he was rejected by his friends and forced into solitude, the woman he truly loved was involved in what he believed to be a strong relationship, so he turned to her for comfort. Wes & Fred had a lot in common and their relationship formed from a long standing friendship.
 
Cordelia said:
After finishing up S4, I really do think Wesley honestly cared about Fred, to the point at which you can assume he loved her (as we don't get inside their heads, we don't know for sure). His affair with Lilah is something that just happened...he was rejected by his friends and forced into solitude, the woman he truly loved was involved in what he believed to be a strong relationship, so he turned to her for comfort. Wes & Fred had a lot in common and their relationship formed from a long standing friendship.
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After finishing S4, I think that Wesley really loved Lilah. But he was afraid to admit this, because a) she was one of the "black hats" (what an infantile expression) and b) he feared that she didn't love him.

I also believe that Wesley was in love with an illusion he harbored of Fred. He thought that she was some kind of epitome of female or human goodness; and thought that being with her would make his life better. Silly man! I also believed that he had a good look at the real Fred in "Players" and realized that she was not the type of woman who would make him happy. But since their conversation in this episode was partially about Connor, both forgot about it in the mindwipe of "Home". Which is why Wes probably returned to his mindless worship of Fred in S5.

For all of you Wes/Lilah fans check out this essay - http://www.livejournal.com/community/ship_manifesto/6529.html#cutid1
 
You can't assume parts of the conversation that weren't about connor were erased by the mindwipe...you know what happens when you assume 😀 (ok I know its silly, but I couldn't resist)

I do agree that Wes did put Fred up on a pedastal, which is never healthy for a relationship but it didn't mean he didn't love her. What did Fred ever do not to deserve his love?
 
Cordelia said:
You can't assume parts of the conversation that weren't about connor were erased by the mindwipe...you know what happens when you assume 😀 (ok I know its silly, but I couldn't resist)

I do agree that Wes did put Fred up on a pedastal, which is never healthy for a relationship but it didn't mean he didn't love her. What did Fred ever do not to deserve his love?
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How about "not love him"?

Look Cordelia, I think we better end this conversation right now. It's obvious you think that Wes/Fred is one of the great love stories of Jossverse. I think they make one dull-ass couple and I find their "love" for each other illusional and narcissist, like all romances between people searching for the "ideal" mate.

Let's just leave it at that and end this debate. Shall we?
 
Lol...what makes this thread different from any other one that you like to assert your opinion on. And btw, Wes/Fred is not on my top ships of the Jossverse...I'm just arguing a point...I actually like Frunn(or whatever silly ship name it has) better. And I'm hardcore Cangel FYI 😀
 
Personally I loved the Wes/Fred relationship.

It was complex and fascinating. I only wish I could see more of it.
 
C
Cordelia
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Cordelia said:
Lol...what makes this thread different from any other one that you like to assert your opinion on. And btw, Wes/Fred is not on my top ships of the Jossverse...I'm just arguing a point...I actually like Frunn(or whatever silly ship name it has) better. And I'm hardcore Cangel FYI 😀
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You know Cordelia, I realized that we would never agree on this topic and decided to end the argument. Instead, you decided to continue by sniping at my character. Jesus Christ!

Oh, and Nerd4hire had to get into the act, as well.
 
But gosh Lady L. You said you didn't want to talk about this anymore. So I figured, "Cool". Now I'm safe. I can show my support for the amazing job the writers did with the Wes/Fred relationship.

Now it turns out you do want to continue arguing.

Sheesh, girl make up your mind will you. I'll come back later when it appears safe for sure, and talk some more about one of my favourite B/A relationships.
 
I was just merely pointing out you don't seem to back off an arguement in other threads when you realize you don't agree with someone else on a topic. 😀
 
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