Wesley and Buffy - the depression arcs

[bespangeled]

On another thread, someone used the word depression talking about Wesley's arc after he had his throat cut and all of his friends deserted him. It made me think of season 6 Buffy after she was ripped out of heaven by the very people she was used to confiding in, and I see obvious parallels. Buffy too was depressed, unable to talk to her friends, and ended up sleeping with - no, having hot sex with someone she disapproved of, someone whose very nature she hated. Both finally were strong enough and believed in their mission enough to walk away, turn their back on the temptation even though they still have feelings. Lilah stayed evil, died, and kinda dropped by on occasion - she never changed her intrinsic nature. Spike does evil, changes his intrinsic nature and then goes on to try to make amends.

Fred gets turned to Illyria. Not sure if there's any parallel there.....😕

Anyone want to discuss this? I'm more interested in Wesley and Buffy, but feel free to compare the other two if you want.

 

[Blaze]

On another thread, someone used the word depression talking about Wesley's arc after he had his throat cut and all of his friends deserted him. It made me think of season 6 Buffy after she was ripped out of heaven by the very people she was used to confiding in, and I see obvious parallels. Buffy too was depressed, unable to talk to her friends, and ended up sleeping with - no, having hot sex with someone she disapproved of, someone whose very nature she hated. Both finally were strong enough and believed in their mission enough to walk away, turn their back on the temptation even though they still have feelings. Lilah stayed evil, died, and kinda dropped by on occasion - she never changed her intrinsic nature. Spike does evil, changes his intrinsic nature and then goes on to try to make amends.

Fred gets turned to Illyria. Not sure if there's any parallel there.....😕

Anyone want to discuss this? I'm more interested in Wesley and Buffy, but feel free to compare the other two if you want.

Well to start of I like both of the storylines, I actually connected to those stories a lot and they are part of my favorites in the the verse.

I don't really believe thought that's it's a case of them being strong enough to walk away from being self destructive because of the mission.

I 100% believe that Buffy is still depressed in s7, and there's many signs that supports this theory.

Same with Wesley, depression is not simply about turning your back on those feelings and moving forward, it's much more complicated than that. And of course with Wes there's this added layer of wiped memory that plays into account, but even in s5 he isn't the same as he used to be. He's strong, but depression isn't about being strong or weak. I don't necessarily think Wes is depressed though, I just think he has a dark outlook on the world, and rightfully so.

And to correct myself, I've used the word depressed to describe Wes before, but I think the difference is that Buffy is clinically depressed, while Wes is going through a very dark time in his life. Wes' depression state is brought on by circumstances and I don't think it would necessarily be permanent. That doesn't mean he isn't depressed at the time, bit I think with Buffy were speaking more mental illness whereas with Wes, well he was just faced with a lot of consequences that left him with a dark outlook on the world. Overall, I'd debate that Wes went through more than Buffy did.

 

[Xin Rong]

Well to start of I like both of the storylines, I actually connected to those stories a lot and they are part of my favorites in the the verse.

I don't really believe thought that's it's a case of them being strong enough to walk away from being self destructive because of the mission.

I 100% believe that Buffy is still depressed in s7, and there's many signs that supports this theory.

Same with Wesley, depression is not simply about turning your back on those feelings and moving forward, it's much more complicated than that. And of course with Wes there's this added layer of wiped memory that plays into account, but even in s5 he isn't the same as he used to be. He's strong, but depression isn't about being strong or weak. I don't necessarily think Wes is depressed though, I just think he has a dark outlook on the world, and rightfully so.

And to correct myself, I've used the word depressed to describe Wes before, but I think the difference is that Buffy is clinically depressed, while Wes is going through a very dark time in his life. Wes' depression state is brought on by circumstances and I don't think it would necessarily be permanent. That doesn't mean he isn't depressed at the time, bit I think with Buffy were speaking more mental illness whereas with Wes, well he was just faced with a lot of consequences that left him with a dark outlook on the world. Overall, I'd debate that Wes went through more than Buffy did.

Wes went through more than Buffy did? What do you mean by this?

Wesley's had hardly any hardship compared to Buffy - who died at 15, killed the love of her life at 16, got betrayed by faith at 17, got dumped at 17, had her mother die at 19, got cheated on, died again and everything else- whereas Wesley nearly got killed and was disowned by Angel for for kidnapping his son, which, to be fair, is a reasonable stance to take when someone is responsibile for losing your child, no matter what the circumstances.

 

[thetopher]

Wes went through more than Buffy did? What do you mean by this?

Wesley's had hardly any hardship compared to Buffy - who died at 15, killed the love of her life at 16, got betrayed by faith at 17, got dumped at 17, had her mother die at 19, got cheated on, died again and everything else- whereas Wesley nearly got killed and was disowned by Angel for for kidnapping his son, which, to be fair, is a reasonable stance to take when someone is responsibile for losing your child, no matter what the circumstances.

Wesley got abandoned by all his friends, Buffy has always had support from friends and family.
All through the hardships that you described I only really think Buffy was alone in S6 (this is partly her own isolation and partly her friends having their own issues- Willow and magic, Giles leaving, Tara ;eaving Wilow, Xander and....oh, that's right he had a wedding plan. 🙄) which was the worst part of her life- her actual depression/numbness to almost everything else.

Buffy may have felt alone, but Wesley was actually alone for a very dark period in his life. His friends (chiefly Gunn and Cordelia) pretty much decided to have nothing more to do with Wesley rather than help him or show even any sympathy.

Honestly I think how people adjust to a particularly dark time in their lives is partly down to how much support they have from freinds/loved ones.


As to the Lilah/Spike comparison, I think its a false one.
Lilah/Wesley just kinda happened, I'm not sure Lilah thought that she was going to seduce Wes over to the dark side for W&H's benefit. I think she just wanted to help him outline his options- 'you have nobody now, you're on your own, come work for us.'

The rest was just chemistry. 😀

Spike pretty much pursued Buffy after a couple of ill-advised kisses. He losted after her, loved her. He was in full-on hopeful stalker mode even when she said she wanted him to stay away from her.
Then he finds out his chip stops working and he attacks her.

Right there the balance of their relationship changes and they both know it. I think that's part of the reason Buffy 'gives in', because of the danger, not just the pleasure part.

This coupled with her depression, and I'm not convinced that Buffy, unlike Wesley, was in her right mind when she embarked on the relatio...boink-athon with Spike.

 

[Blaze]

Wes went through more than Buffy did? What do you mean by this?

Wesley's had hardly any hardship compared to Buffy - who died at 15, killed the love of her life at 16, got betrayed by faith at 17, got dumped at 17, had her mother die at 19, got cheated on, died again and everything else- whereas Wesley nearly got killed and was disowned by Angel for for kidnapping his son, which, to be fair, is a reasonable stance to take when someone is responsibile for losing your child, no matter what the circumstances.

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]; already outlined it well.

By saying that Wes went through more, it's not exactly a fair comparison. When viewing what each person is capable of going through, you have to look at it on a case by case basis. Wes lost all of his friends and support system, that can destroy someone. And as much as I adore Wes, I'd also debate that he's not as mentally strong as Buffy is (that is until s5, I think s5 Wes is one of the strongest character), but again Buffy's strength comes from her friends.

It's kind of hard to make a real life comparison because no one has gone to heaven and come back, but in s6, Buffy hasn't necessarily gone through more than she usually does. Like you said, the girl's life is pretty rough, and being ripped out of Heaven was awful. But she still has her friends, yet feels really alone. I mean, no Willow (addiction) and Giles, but she could have easily turned to Xander and Dawn and ask for help but she never did. This is actually a huge sign of clinical depression, Buffy felt alone, she wasn't. And yes maybe at the end of the day, she had just gone through too much for a single person through out all the season.

But for Wes' case, in s4 which is comparable to s6 in the timeline, Wes doesn't start out as depress, he becomes depressed because he literally has no friends and he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. What he did and the remorse he felt could eat a man alive. His biggest punisher was himself. What Wes went through was harder on him than some of the "worst" events Buffy went through, again they can't be directly compared. If were making a list for each of them I'm sure Buffy has gone through more things, but if were trying to make the comparison based on the person, I think what Wes went through took a bigger toll on him compared to Buffy.

On a final note, I again don't think we can accurately compare these two character's depression storyline.

 

[bespangeled]

Wesley got abandoned by all his friends, Buffy has always had support from friends and family.
All through the hardships that you described I only really think Buffy was alone in S6 (this is partly her own isolation and partly her friends having their own issues- Willow and magic, Giles leaving, Tara ;eaving Wilow, Xander and....oh, that's right he had a wedding plan. 🙄) which was the worst part of her life- her actual depression/numbness to almost everything else.

Buffy may have felt alone, but Wesley was actually alone for a very dark period in his life. His friends (chiefly Gunn and Cordelia) pretty much decided to have nothing more to do with Wesley rather than help him or show even any sympathy.

Honestly I think how people adjust to a particularly dark time in their lives is partly down to how much support they have from freinds/loved ones.


As to the Lilah/Spike comparison, I think its a false one.
Lilah/Wesley just kinda happened, I'm not sure Lilah thought that she was going to seduce Wes over to the dark side for W&H's benefit. I think she just wanted to help him outline his options- 'you have nobody now, you're on your own, come work for us.'

The rest was just chemistry. 😀

Spike pretty much pursued Buffy after a couple of ill-advised kisses. He losted after her, loved her. He was in full-on hopeful stalker mode even when she said she wanted him to stay away from her.
Then he finds out his chip stops working and he attacks her.

Right there the balance of their relationship changes and they both know it. I think that's part of the reason Buffy 'gives in', because of the danger, not just the pleasure part.

This coupled with her depression, and I'm not convinced that Buffy, unlike Wesley, was in her right mind when she embarked on the relatio...boink-athon with Spike.

He actually just stands in front of her - she's the one who starts throwing punches, and she sure as hell seems to get into the fight when she's throwing Spike into walls, etc. Before that, he was the only one she was really honest with - she came to him both when they talked and later most of the time that they slept together. Spike saved Buffy, told her to go back to get out her kumbayayas but she decided she'd kiss him because she just wanted to feel. Buffy definitely held her own on that fight before she jumped him - threw him into a wall, jumped on, got rid of what clothing was in the way, unzipped Spike and climbed on for a ride. Whatever Spike does wrong (and there are many tons of wrong to explore) don't turn Buffy into a witless victim. That mess took two to create. She's a powerful woman who made some stupid mistakes because she was in terrific pain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F2FS3XOvnA - the actual ending of Smashed, cut for obvious reasons

As for Lilah - that relationship 🙂D) did not just happen by any means. Talk about stalkery, she shows up at his place with "gifts", tells him he deserves the lowest circle in hell, sends him the invite to the bar massacre W&H planned for Justine, and then taunts him into grabbing her by the throat - which turns into flat-out hate sex. Let's not even get into 'leave the glasses on' from when Lilah followed Wes to Fred's symposium, or all the other place she followed him. Her interest in him goes way beyond W&H as does his interest in her. It's Wesley's chance to roll in the muck.

Lilah walks through a dingy, half-empty bar to a table where Wesley sits staring at the beer and shot glasses on the table in front of him.
Lilah: "Mind if I join you?"
Wes: "On many levels and with great intensity."
Wes pours a shot into his beer.
***snip***
Wes staring straight ahead: "Yes. Every child born carries into the world the possibility of salvation - or slaughter."
Lilah: "And one born to two vampires carries it in spades. Now, my people will be rooting - for slaughter. And your people... sorry - your *former* people, they won't know what to do if things turn sour."
Wes looks down: "No."
Lilah: "So, if the kid's the next Stalin, do you kill him? You can't! He's Angel's son. But on the other hand, if you just watch while he up and kills Angel or somebody else - that cure girl from Texas, say? - Wow, times like this? Glad I don't have a conscience."
Wes: "I think you should leave now."
Lilah puts a hand up to her throat: "What was it like? When she cut you?"
Wes grabs her by the throat: "You terribly anxious to find out?"

(I just love this scene!!)

As for Wesley and Buffy, I agree on the nature of their support systems. Wesley's friends abandoned him completely - Angel tried to kill him and Fred told him to never come back. Buffy's problems stemmed from what her friends did for/to her. She couldn't tell them what they had done to her without hurting them. Instead she turned to Spike who was willing to listen instead of wanting her to constantly reassure him that she was alright.

Wesley's friends were willing to use him, but even after he rescued Angel they made it clear there was no forgiveness. Even Angel was interested in using him - told Wesley he forgave him - but he just wanted the info on Cordelia. I love that scene - and I love the fact that Wesley created his own life away from AI.

 

[thetopher]

He actually just stands in front of her - she's the one who starts throwing punches, and she sure as hell seems to get into the fight when she's throwing Spike into walls, etc. Before that, he was the only one she was really honest with - she came to him both when they talked and later most of the time that they slept together. Spike saved Buffy, told her to go back to get out her kumbayayas but she decided she'd kiss him because she just wanted to feel. Buffy definitely held her own on that fight before she jumped him - threw him into a wall, jumped on, got rid of what clothing was in the way, unzipped Spike and climbed on for a ride. Whatever Spike does wrong (and there are many tons of wrong to explore) don't turn Buffy into a witless victim. That mess took two to create. She's a powerful woman who made some stupid mistakes because she was in terrific pain.

I never said that Buffy was a witless victim, I said that she wasn't in her right mind when she made her terrifically BAD choice to sleep with Spike.
She was depressed, she was in pain, she was, therefore, vulnerable.

But she still chose. I accept that. People made bad choices when they're lonely and depressed.

And what, Spike rings her up and asks to meet her alone so he can..? They ain't gonna chat innocently are they.
The obvious conclusion is that he's going to attack her when they meet up . I don't care who threw the first punch, he was there to fight.
He even tells her that he wasn't planning on hurting her, much. But he did want to show her that the rules had changed, he wanted to show her that he could hurt her.

And that is why Buffy has sex with him, and that is twisted on a deep emotional level and points to her mental state at the time.

What I meant is that the Lilah/Wes thing wasn't Lilah's initial goal. She was trying to recruit him, not boink him.
She didn't take into account Wes's incredible good looks, his dark edge that she found so attractive, his english accent that no woman in their right mind can resist 🙂D)

They both made a choice, agreed, but it was far more informed on both their parts than the Buffy/Spike mess.

 

[bespangeled]

@thetopher QUOTE

And what, Spike rings her up and asks to meet her alone so he can..? They ain't gonna chat innocently are they.
The obvious conclusion is that he's going to attack her when they meet up . I don't care who threw the first punch, he was there to fight.
He even tells her that he wasn't planning on hurting her, much. But he did want to show her that the rules had changed, he wanted to show her that he could hurt her.

And that is why Buffy has sex with him, and that is twisted on a deep emotional level and points to her mental state at the time.


In normal circumstances I would try to keep the male from attacking the female. In our culture the male is the aggressor and the woman reacts.

But if you remember what Faith said about fighting getting you horny, what Spike saw with Buffy running off to slay to work off some energy that she and Riley hadn't burned, what Buffy said about beating up Spike being third base - and the fact that Spike has been on hyper-stalk since the OMWF kiss and subsequent make-out sessions....I think we are a lot closer to the reason for the attack. They both love to fight - particularly with each other - this will bring her out of her head and into her body. And it works.

Trouble is - the next morning comes, and the one after that. Yeah, spectacularly bad moves from the very depressed and alienated slayer. Add to that the fact Spike's entire love life has been taking care of an insane vampire - he has no idea what love is even if he weren't a demon. Which he very much is. He will take advantage of every opening he can find - and much as he thinks he loves her, love isn't an emotion. It's a way of acting on your beliefs. His love is the most toxic thing that she could have in her life at that time.

Wes and Lilah are both normal humans so their relationship is much more normal and human - but damn is it hot. There's no love there - mild affection, blistering sex, two adults nakedly using each other. Wesley never loses sight of what Lilah is. And she loves it. So does he. Each one grapples to be the one less involved, less in love & more able to take advantage of the other. Wesley never loses touch with the fact that Lilah is amoral, and happily evil as needed.

The circumstances are not identical but the resonance surprised me - the parallels. I wonder if Joss planned that. Hell, even when Angel went over the top, it was because of Darla.

 

[Robb Stark]

I never really thought Wesley was depressed, to be honest. Depression, as least the way I've understood and interacted with it, is a seeping state that you don't just "pull yourself out of". It affects everything you think and do. I think Wes went through a ton and those experiences fundamentally altered his life, I think they made him much, much darker, but I don't think that necessarily means "depression". Being angry, bitter or sad isn't the same thing as being depressed.

 

[bespangeled]

I never really thought Wesley was depressed, to be honest. Depression, as least the way I've understood and interacted with it, is a seeping state that you don't just "pull yourself out of". It affects everything you think and do. I think Wes went through a ton and those experiences fundamentally altered his life, I think they made him much, much darker, but I don't think that necessarily means "depression". Being angry, bitter or sad isn't the same thing as being depressed.

I think the difference is between situational depression and chronic depression. Given that he probably had to function without affection all his life, I suspect chronic depression was the first think he learned to deal with in order to survive. Losing the one family he had sent him over the top, and he reacted with the skill he had. Close off, and use what you've learned. The more he could take control that way, the less his depression was a threat - empowerment is what fights depression. So both Buffy and Wes, even though they made awful choices got a lot of growth from them. Lilah and Spike ended up dying.

Kinda suck to be them, though both got sequels.

 

[thetopher]

Sex and slaying have always been strongly linked since S3, from 'Bad Girls' onwards, with Buffy giving in to how Faith sees slaying and pretty much draping herself over a (very uncomfortable) Angel, so I do understand your point.

But I'm not sure I got a sex vibe when Buffy and Spike fought, not from Buffy at any rate. But from 'Harsh Light Of Day' it's obvious (to me) that Spike loves fighting with Buffy, and kinda finds it a turn on. But Smashed in the first instance I got a mutual spark from the both of them, but then that's just me.

To Buffy Spike is still a vampire, her slayer instinct there is to kill or be killed, to slay or be bitten.
But obviously her 'depressed, feel something' Buffy instinct takes over and takes Spike for a joyride instead.

The only person that I thought Buffy might enjoy fighting on that level was Faith...yeah, yeah, I know, but if we're going by eye contact and double entendre's then there's definitly something there.
Plus, slayer vs. slayer is definitley something on a different intesity level to fighting a vampire. 🙂

And I agree with everything you said about Wes/Lilah. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

Sex and slaying have always been strongly linked since S3, from 'Bad Girls' onwards, with Buffy giving in to how Faith sees slaying and pretty much draping herself over a (very uncomfortable) Angel, so I do understand your point.

But I'm not sure I got a sex vibe when Buffy and Spike fought, not from Buffy at any rate. But from 'Harsh Light Of Day' it's obvious (to me) that Spike loves fighting with Buffy, and kinda finds it a turn on. But Smashed in the first instance I got a mutual spark from the both of them, but then that's just me.

To Buffy Spike is still a vampire, her slayer instinct there is to kill or be killed, to slay or be bitten.
But obviously her 'depressed, feel something' Buffy instinct takes over and takes Spike for a joyride instead.

The only person that I thought Buffy might enjoy fighting on that level was Faith...yeah, yeah, I know, but if we're going by eye contact and double entendre's then there's definitly something there.
Plus, slayer vs. slayer is definitley something on a different intesity level to fighting a vampire. 🙂

And I agree with everything you said about Wes/Lilah. 🙂

Gotta spread it around, so no karma 🙂
But Fuffy rocks!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Great post ideas!

Yeah, I think what Buffy and Wesley went through was similar, though in a way I think Wes' was worse: he, however misguided, thought that taking Conner was the right thing to do, and he was punished for it. Not only did his arguably bet friend try to kill him, his friends abandoned him, but he lost his job as well.

Buffy, though ripped out of Heaven, at least had support from her friends...and no one tried to kill her because of what she'd been through.

But you're right: both tried to lessen their depression, and to feel something by sleeping with people they despised and/or hated.

Good observation!

 

[Xin Rong]

Out of interest, do people think that what Wesley went through was worse, or just that he didn't handle it as well as Buffy, because he wasn't as strong/resilient?

 

[Blaze]

Out of interest, do people think that what Wesley went through was worse, or just that he didn't handle it as well as Buffy, because he wasn't as strong/resilient?

I don't think those two events are mutually exclusive. We have to take into account that each person's worst nightmare is different, and what each person goes through cannot be compared.

For example, Wes is not close to his father, Buffy was very close to her mother, and each had a different relationship with their parent. Therefore, let's say both parent died the same way, even though the event are the same, they couldn't be measured on the same scale for how much it affects each character.

Therefore, it really is impossible to say whether being ripped away from heaven or losing all of your friend is worse. For one person it might be option A or for one person it might be option B. The same way, Wes isn't necessarily weaker than Buffy for reacting the way he did, and it's impossible to know how Buffy would have done in Wes' shoes or vice versa. That's why I think both situations are very hard to compare.

Also, when I say that Wes went through more, I also don't mean that it was necessarily worse. But I do judge according to my own values and how I would personally react to what happened, but also how Wes handled it, so it's a combination of both factors.

I also don't mean to say that Buffy didn't go through a lot, she obviously did.

 

[bespangeled]

Wesley had what was probably his worst nightmare come through - once again he was on his own, despised and rejected by the only people he had any bond with.In a way he too was ripped out of heaven. Given what we know of his family and upbringing these are probably the best friends he has ever had. The funny thing is that, as a parent I know how horrific his actions were, and yet I still feel for him.

And I also do not think Angel wanted to kill Wesley. If he had wanted to kill him, Wesley would be dead. He also doesn't seem to want to torment him, since he doesn't have contact until the rescue. I started a thread for that question. Why a pillow and not snapping his neck? If it was to torment him, then why stop with just a pillow?

Buffy had friends she could reach out to. The trouble was they were the very same friends who had ripped her out of heaven. So while she did have what Wesley really wanted, she couldn't be honest with them. Only Spike, who had shown that he knew what she was going through immediately after she came out, could she trust. And there is some truth to the dead man's ear doesn't make it real. Like Fred with her parents. .

 

[Xin Rong]

Would Wesley's situation not be more comparable to Buffy at the end of season 2/beginning of season 3.

They both went through a traumatic event, which was spurred on by a bad decision with larger than normal consequences, and both then were cut off from their friends, and went through a depressive spiral.

Yes, Wesley didn't have a choice in being cut off, at first, but he does struggle to forgive his friends, and doesn't try to apologise or make amends, even though he does find Angel, he doesn't seem to do it for forgiveness, he just does it, which is very commendable in my view.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I see something of depression with Buffy but not Wesley. Wesley has had disapproval from his father and was something of a buffoon on Buffy. He has had a major decision about Connor go wrong. There are reasons that we can see for how unhappy he is with his situation. THIS IS NOT DEPRESSION.

There is some evidence that Buffy is depressed, but again, she has to cope with being torn out of the safety of heaven, making a living, assuming adult responsibilities, defending the world from the denizens of the hellmouth and relationships that go off the rails. We see what appears to be depression in "Bargaining Part 2 6ABB02" (but it could be easily confused with disorientation).

Depression is a metabolic disease, like diabetes. It is not curable by a change of circumstances, nor is it caused by circumstances. It can be exacerbated by circumstances, but it is separate from them. It is related to neurotransmitter production and it cannot be wished away, nor can someone just "put on a happy face" and people who demand that are both stupid and cruel. The end of Season 6 shows some miraculous recovery from "depression", which is an indication that depression is either not what it was originally or the writers have no clue that unhappiness may be a symptom of depression, but the symptom is not the disease.

 

[bespangeled]

Circumstances can affect the brain chemistry - situational depression can become chronic depression. Not every depressed person responds the same way. For the rest, I agree. Depression is as physical as diabetes and liver disease, and probably more in need of treatment. The blues are not depression.

Both Wesley and Buffy show the inability to care, and that is a huge sign. Not sad, not happy - just unable to feel.

I just think that Wes is no stranger to situational depression, and has better tools than most. Wesley goes from sitting alone in his apt to running his own crew, an that takes him about a year. He is able to find a valid way of escaping the situational depression. There are ways other than medication - both exercise and empowerment work.