Wesley & Slayer Obedience - Deference

[NoShip]

I have read several posts that criticize Buffy & Faith for not following Wesley's orders & blatantly disrespecting him.

The scenes I remember were played for laughs. Also the Slayers were not very obedient to Giles, but, they (especially Buffy) were much more respectful.

Personally, I don't think Wesley did anything to earn their obedience or respect. He was the prototypical example of the "good" watcher, focused on the mission only & not overly concerned about his Slayer's well-being.

So..... Wesley got what he deserved.

Agree? Disagree? Don't care? Let me know. Cheers.

 

[Miath]

Agreed.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

They are high school students, they have to deal with student teachers, substitute teachers, and other personages who deserve their respect, even if they haven't earned it. Ideally, Giles would have encouraged her to keep an open mind, because she doesn't know everything, and to respect the office and the council (who represent a never ending sacrifice in service to protecting the world from the forces of darkness and to keep slayers alive an extra day), but not to be afraid to ask questions, and to firmly and politely challenge him when needed.

 

[thrasherpix]

Didn't know that was a thing.

I'd think any good will Wes might have would evaporate given how he operated. Understandable, and made for an interesting character (his arc over 2 shows anyway), but I can see why Faith didn't trust or respect him, and why Buffy, who is experienced and attuned to the intangibles of Sunnydale with sources she respects, pretty much ignore him.

I'm being generous given that the Council is mostly sitting in safe offices while using drafted child soldiers. Okay, children by today's standards, but that doesn't make either Buffy or Faith just as prepared as Slayers in previous centuries, and it's sink or swim, and sometimes even when they swim the Council will haze them with cruel tests (which seem to be to keep the Slayer young and thus easier to control).

 

[NotASlayer]

Someone (@AlphaFoxtrot ?) compared the council to the Catholic Church, with two main aspects, the centre of power, where those who wanted power wanted to be, and the periphery, where the real work gets done.

So, you have two kinds of Watchers. Those who run things, and those like Giles, who are on the front line. Not just training Slayers, but watching over potentials and keeping an eye on places of concern, which is why Giles was at the Hellmouth before Buffy in the main timeline and still there in the Wishverse. These Watchers are highly likely to be better trained and have had actual combat experience.

Wesley comes across as more of the "centre of power" type of Watcher. It could be he's a baby Watcher, being sent out to get some seasoning, but given he was sent to watch over the Slayer, that doesn't seem as likely. It seems, given his father seemed to have Council influence, that he was just "doing the rounds" in the lower ranks before getting promoted to the centre. And that was a mistake. Wesley was unsuited, emotionally and by training, for dealing with the real, supernatural, world of front line Watchers, and coping with those who faced it, Slayers or no.

He wasn't doing anything to earn respect, and in a position where those he is dealing with are facing death regularly, that meant he was being treated with the level of respect he did deserve. Wesley would have been better off listening to Giles, but at that point he truly believed he knew better than Giles.

 

[thetopher]

I think neither slayer respected Wesley, but for slightly different reasons.
For Buffy it was mostly because he wasn't Giles and didn't share that already established Watcher/Slayer relationship that they had built between them during that first couple of years. Add to that her general disaffection with the Watcher's council after her surprise Birthday-fight-to-the-death-thing.
For Faith, she was just much further down the disaffected path; the council clearly didn't care for her or value her (that includes Giles) so why should she obey any of them them, or trust them even?

For all her snark Buffy still did what Wesley wanted in 'Bad Girls' (with the tacit approval of Giles of course) but Faith was just full-on 'screw you I'll do what I want' and only turned up for the assignment in the end because of Buffy.

And whilst I feel a little sorry for Wesley and the position he had been put in, overall it doesn't really bothers me because Buffy and Faith are in-character and completely justified in their attitude towards him.
Wesley himself has not wronged them, but the institution he represents has, and so his assumed authority suffers as a consequence.


However when Wesley appears to Buffy in 'Graduation Day Pt. 2' as himself, not as a representative of the WC, she gives him a fair shot in helping them, which is telling.

 

[Cohen]

I think neither slayer respected Wesley, but for slightly different reasons.

These are all great points!

For Buffy it was mostly because he wasn't Giles and didn't share that already established Watcher/Slayer relationship that they had built between them during that first couple of years. Add to that her general disaffection with the Watcher's council after her surprise Birthday-fight-to-the-death-thing.

I think this is an important aspect of working with teenagers that the internal Watcher's Council has never quite figured out, and probably why their slayers tend to only live a couple years before ultimately being killed. Giles initially was like this too. In the first episode, it is clear he is doing his duty, as charged to him. He didn't really want to be in California, and he didn't understand Buffy as a teenage girl. But you can see a shift in him throughout the first season, where he begins to understand the important aspect of building a relationship with her, and allowing her to have relationships outside of the Slayer-Watcher dynamic. This is starkly contrasted by the Kendra/Zabuto relationship, in which she was sent to him at a very young age, and that was the extent of her social circle. Because of this, she died relatively quickly in her duty.

For Faith, she was just much further down the disaffected path; the council clearly didn't care for her or value her (that includes Giles) so why should she obey any of them them, or trust them even?

I think you raise a great point about Giles and his (lack of) relationship with Faith, though not entirely his fault alone. The council plays the largest role in Faith's downward spiral. They sent her a watcher to Boston, and that watcher died. Then, they never followed up. Giles, as the resident watcher in Sunnydale, did take her under his wing to train, BUT he stopped short at providing the relationship with her that he gave to Buffy, and even to the rest of the Scoobies. Giles and Willow had a solid relationship. Giles clearly never "liked" Xander in the high school years, but he still established a sort of relationship with him. And he even extended this to caring about Cordelia and Oz. But other than being a "tool," I don't see Giles really establishing any true type of relationship with her.

For all her snark Buffy still did what Wesley wanted in 'Bad Girls' (with the tacit approval of Giles of course) but Faith was just full-on 'screw you I'll do what I want' and only turned up for the assignment in the end because of Buffy.

Wesley reminds me of first year teachers. He thinks he has to come in hard and strict, and does not understand the relationship-building aspect of being a teacher. Especially with teenagers. I actually like the dynamic between Giles and Wesley, because it reminds me of a first year and veteran teacher relationship, where Wesley tries different strategies and goes to Giles for support. But, to Wesley's credit, he was not adequately prepared to handle a slayer like Faith. He was screwed, just as much as she was. The council was probably hoping that Faith would be killed quickly, and they could get a new slayer, similar to Kendra, on their side.

However when Wesley appears to Buffy in 'Graduation Day Pt. 2' as himself, not as a representative of the WC, she gives him a fair shot in helping them, which is telling.

I think being "fired" by Buffy really put into perspective his shortcomings as a watcher. And you can see this continue in his interactions with Faith in seasons 1 and 4 with Angel. I often think of Wesley as more of Faith's watcher than Buffy's for this reason. Buffy's true watcher, even at the end of season 3, was Giles. There was never a true replacement. But Wesley, even though he lost her in season 3, was always Faith's watcher, and Faith clearly sees this as fact, because of her hatred and target of him in season 1 of Angel and then their resolution in season 4 of Angel.

 

[Bop]

After the cruciamentum and the fact that Giles is around anyway, it's understandable why Buffy didn't have any use for Wesley and for Faith this is sort of her fourth watcher, imagine it was your fourth social worker or teacher in the same subject within the span of not even a year, a lot of teenagers wouldn't believe it can work anymore so she gave up early.

I don't think Wesley had bad intentions but he came in assuming he would be listened to automatically which wasn't the case and wouldn't be the case unless the slayer was something like Kendra.

 

[thetopher]

I think this is an important aspect of working with teenagers that the internal Watcher's Council has never quite figured out, and probably why their slayers tend to only live a couple years before ultimately being killed.

I was thinking about this and, basically, the idea of 'teenager' is actually a very recent thing. Maybe since the 1950's in the West; every time before that people were children until about 14/15 and then were mini-adults, expected to just grow up and get jobs unless getting higher education for a specific purpose. Usually by the time they turned 20 they would be starting a family.

So the Watcher's would never have to 'deal' with teen issues for...hundreds of years previously and clearly as an institution they were incredibly slow to react to such social changes.

I think Giles did pretty well, it helped that he had a youthful rebellion phase of his own which was why he could empathize so well with Buffy's own angst.

I think you raise a great point about Giles and his (lack of) relationship with Faith, though not entirely his fault alone. The council plays the largest role in Faith's downward spiral.

The slack I cut Giles is that he is still Watcher-man showing complete deference to Watcher protocol and the unprecedented position of having two slayers in his care. I'm sure he thought of himself as just a place-holder in terms of Faith and any new, 'imminently arriving watcher' and not wanting to get in the way of that. Also he was incredibly focused on Buffy since her summer hiatus.

I do think that should thought process should've shifted after Mrs. Post's betrayal but Giles mindset didn't really change until losing his job.

Wesley reminds me of first year teachers. He thinks he has to come in hard and strict, and does not understand the relationship-building aspect of being a teacher. Especially with teenagers. I actually like the dynamic between Giles and Wesley, because it reminds me of a first year and veteran teacher relationship, where Wesley tries different strategies and goes to Giles for support.

That's a good analogy, but I feel added to that there is the slightly bitter undercurrent from Giles side where occasionally he will poke at Wesley's pomposity if he feels its warranted. But sure, when the stakes are important they work as a good team.

I think being "fired" by Buffy really put into perspective his shortcomings as a watcher. And you can see this continue in his interactions with Faith in seasons 1 and 4 with Angel. I often think of Wesley as more of Faith's watcher than Buffy's for this reason.

Oh, totally agree. And I think that's how Wesley and Faith both feel given the torture scene in 'Five By Five'.
By S4 they both have something to prove to each other; they're both kinda damaged but they actually end up syncing better as Watcher & Slayer, and in a way that's completely different from Buffy and Giles.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Notaslayer; I don't recall making that point, but nonetheless it's a good one.

Okay, that's a second problem, what Wesley should have done to earn the girls respect and trust? This to me, is the better question, as Buffy is a senior in highschool, in that she should respect him, but isn't inclined to in any way, shape or form. I mean, if Joyce or Hank got remarried, we all agree Buffy may not like her step parent, but she would at least not openly undermine them, especially in front of Dawn? But if Secretary Mom starts disrespecting Buffy, we also wouldn't expect her to take the abuse. It's a complicated situation.

The real problem here is with the council. Wesley could have been placed to intern with an veteran watcher and potential, to learn the ins and outs of handling a teenage girl. He could have been sent to a combat unit, or some sort of embedded attache, or served as an associate watcher, or something, but instead, he was tossed into a situation with two active slayers, where the previous watcher was fired, and Gwendolyn Post was a thing, and on the hellmouth. That was a specialist situation, someone who you trusted, who could put the slayers in line, and bully Giles into going home, and getting an honest appraisal of the situation. Not, Percy's first job. So, in truth, Wesley was, intentionally or not, going to fail in this job.

P.S. (I mean, aside from getting a cool scar and boinking an evil lawyer and buying a shotgun. Season 5 Wesley should have been the watcher, that would have been sweet.)

 

[NoShip]

The slack I cut Giles is that he is still Watcher-man showing complete deference to Watcher protocol and the unprecedented position of having two slayers in his care.

Love your post.

Unfortunately, I have to dispute the use of the word 'care'. Outside of Giles (and, realistically, Buffy did not give him a choice), no watcher shows any real 'care' for any slayer. And, the higher you go up the Council feeding chain, the worse it gets.

 

[thetopher]

I have to dispute the use of the word 'care'. Outside of Giles (and, realistically, Buffy did not give him a choice), no watcher shows any real 'care' for any slayer.

Yeah, I guess I meant 'care' in a more professional capacity; like the terms 'tended to', 'minister' or 'mind' are better descriptors or his behavior rather than his attitude.
Like I would say that he did care for Buffy, in emotional investment terms, but he more 'tended' or babysat Faith, I guess.

 

[NoShip]

The real problem here is with the council. Wesley could have been placed to intern with an veteran watcher and potential, to learn the ins and outs of handling a teenage girl. He could have been sent to a combat unit, or some sort of embedded attache, or served as an associate watcher, or something, but instead, he was tossed into a situation with two active slayers, where the previous watcher was fired, and Gwendolyn Post was a thing, and on the hellmouth. That was a specialist situation, someone who you trusted, who could put the slayers in line, and bully Giles into going home, and getting an honest appraisal of the situation. Not, Percy's first job. So, in truth, Wesley was, intentionally or not, going to fail in this job.

I think this assumes the Council actually gave a damn about the Slayer(s). My view of what we are shown: Giles & Zabuto (through Kendra) & Post & Travers & Wyndham-Price; indicates that the Council really does not care for the Slayer at all. They really do view the Slayer as a.tool to be used & discarded. Having said that, your ideas are actually excellent & define how creating good watchers should be done.

 

[Plasma]

I have read several posts that criticize Buffy & Faith for not following Wesley's orders & blatantly disrespecting him.

The scenes I remember were played for laughs. Also the Slayers were not very obedient to Giles, but, they (especially Buffy) were much more respectful.

Personally, I don't think Wesley did anything to earn their obedience or respect. He was the prototypical example of the "good" watcher, focused on the mission only & not overly concerned about his Slayer's well-being.

So..... Wesley got what he deserved.

Agree? Disagree? Don't care? Let me know. Cheers.

I think the bigger issue is that even the show doesn’t give him any sort of respect. He’s treated as an absolute muppet, with even Giles saying things like “you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone” (lmao).

It would be a more interesting idea if he was more well established or better than Giles, but he more or less comes in as a joke character and stays that way for the most part, only ever rising from his station when the plot determines he needs to be a jackass.

If Angel S4-5 Wesley showed up on the scene though?? Sheesh!

 

[Bop]

I think the bigger issue is that even the show doesn’t give him any sort of respect. He’s treated as an absolute muppet, with even Giles saying things like “you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone” (lmao).

It would be a more interesting idea if he was more well established or better than Giles, but he more or less comes in as a joke character and stays that way for the most part, only ever rising from his station when the plot determines he needs to be a jackass.

If Angel S4-5 Wesley showed up on the scene though?? Sheesh!

I sort of agree but strangely I'd argue Wesley's given growth and a character arc more so than other new characters on Buffy in their first season. He asks the council for help with getting Angel a cure even though he knows Angel doesn't matter in the council's eyes and even though he ends up getting knocked out and that's a joke he does show up to fight on Graduation Day which shows he's gained some courage since being a coward in front of danger in Bad Girls.

 

[NotASlayer]

Wesley had one of the best character development arcs of the series, going from the Council's yes-man with no real understanding of his job, to stepping up at the end of season 3, to the "Rogue Demon Hunter" (What's a "rogue demon"?) through to the end of Angel season 5. If he hadn't started out so poorly, it would not have been so impressive.

 

[Plasma]

Wesley had one of the best character development arcs of the series, going from the Council's yes-man with no real understanding of his job, to stepping up at the end of season 3, to the "Rogue Demon Hunter" (What's a "rogue demon"?) through to the end of Angel season 5. If he hadn't started out so poorly, it would not have been so impressive.

Agree. I think they did a fantastic turnaround with his character that couldn’t have been done better if he was this badass “rogue demon hunter” from jump.

He may have been an absolute circus when he first showed up, but he really was turned into an amazing character by the end.

 

[NoShip]

Wesley had one of the best character development arcs of the series, going from the Council's yes-man with no real understanding of his job, to stepping up at the end of season 3, to the "Rogue Demon Hunter" (What's a "rogue demon"?) through to the end of Angel season 5. If he hadn't started out so poorly, it would not have been so impressive.

I thought the Buffy version of Wesley was great. I didn't watch Angel much so I can't comment on the Rogue Demon Hunter except, from what I've heard, Wes is much more awesome on ATS.

Wes was great because he was such a cowardly loser and I think he knew it. Or Denisoff just portrayed him that way. Denisoff is such an under-rated actor.

Cheekey is the perfect description. As arrogant & stupid as he is, Wes is hilarious, especially when his actions bite him in the ass. From (not)dating a student to facing down Vamp Willow Mano-a-Vampo, Wes is a comic joy. His attempts to do 'right' cause more chaos than Spike parachuting in for Lovers Walk. And, Wes is one of the few 'good' characters to do wrong and face permanent consequences.

I think I just talked myself into binging Angel. Things that make you go hhhmmmm...........

 

[Tome]

If Angel S4-5 Wesley showed up on the scene though?? Sheesh!

That's an exciting thought. Probably would be near the top of my list of "what ifs"! 🙂 I think he would have strongly clashed with the mostly upbeat temperament of the Scoobies during the early years. Definitely would have gained their respect a lot sooner as he would have been a good, experienced fighter, and he would have looked and sounded a lot more serious.

As for OP, I think Wesley deserved to be mocked every now and then because of his own actions, but the group could sometimes be a little mean and exclusionary with him for no other reason than because they perceived him as a representant of the Council instead of just a human being wanting to help them.