Wesley vs. Giles

[Mr Giles]

Remember in consequences, Wes is going to tell the big jabba vamp everything and Giles comes to the rescue, telling him to shut it and taking a few vamps out! The way they gave Wes guns to jump through the air with.... lame.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Just a reminder here, guys, to keep it friendly 🙂 Take a deep breath 😉

 

[Icarium]

To be honest I will trust in the literal definition of the word. I believe character development means to become something better (or effective from the definition I posted before)

So do you also believe that like half of classic works of art don't have character development because they deal with the hero's downfall? Sorry, that's not what the phrase character development means.

Wesley had feelings for Fred long before they started dating. He finally got into a relationship with her and she dies...and then he dies like 4 episodes later (or something like that. Giles has had 2 full seasons of idle time where he had nothing going on and he never found someone.

So Wesley who became basically suicidal after Fred's death is somehow getting a plus for that compared to Giles who actually managed to move on after Jenny's death without getting killed? Not that I blame Wesley for his depression, mind you, but I find this notion quite bizarre.

So yes, the Buffy/Giles relationship was not repaired because they simply never resolved their issues.

Neither did Wesley and Angel. Conflict creates drama.

When I say gives accomplished nothing I mean in his personal life.

And that's so bad because...? Giles's calling was hugely important, more than anyone's job in the real world. And it was hardly his fault that Jenny got killed and Olivia decided to take a hike.

 

[EvilWillow]

I didn't say it was a cliche or that he didn't do good things OR that Giles was such a hero. And of course Wesley wasn't as boring as you think I'm saying, far from that. I'm just not as impressed by the originality of the character itself. They took an original character and turned it into another charcter that has no real special difference than the rest of the cast. They were all heroes, fighting evil, holding weapons while they do, brave. Yeah, they have different personalities. But they all did the same thing.

I see what you are saying, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, love, but that's the impression that I was getting. I pretty much chose Wesley because Giles wasn't the Giles that I grew to love anymore, and Wesley turned out to be a character that I grew to love. 🙂

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I see what you are saying, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, love, but that's the impression that I was getting. I pretty much chose Wesley because Giles wasn't the Giles that I grew to love anymore, and Wesley turned out to be a character that I grew to love. 🙂

That's alright.

The difference between us here is, what kind of changes we like to see and find interesting.

 

[Hale Caesar]

So do you also believe that like half of classic works of art don't have character development because they deal with the hero's downfall? Sorry, that's not what the phrase character development means.

The difference is Giles was never meant to be a tragic hero. His life just ended tragically. His position in life was better in seasons 1-3, by the end of the show he has nothing to purpose.

So Wesley who became basically suicidal after Fred's death is somehow getting a plus for that compared to Giles who actually managed to move on after Jenny's death without getting killed? Not that I blame Wesley for his depression, mind you, but I find this notion quite bizarre.

Giles never moved on. He was never able to find someone who made him feel the way Jenny did. Giles had 2 full seasons of free time to move on. He never did. Wesley was busy saving the world.

Neither did Wesley and Angel. Conflict creates drama.

Wesley trusted him in Season 5, he followed Angel's plan to attack the Circle of Black Thorn. And you're avoiding my point by bringing up other situations. The Buffy/Giles relationship was not repaired...you didn't answer.

And that's so bad because...? Giles's calling was hugely important, more than anyone's job in the real world. And it was hardly his fault that Jenny got killed and Olivia decided to take a hike.

Are you serious? I just explained this. At the end of season 7 Giles had no love, no family, the Scoobies moved on with their own relationships, and Buffy no longer needed him. Very simply. I'm not denying Giles helped save the world, but at the end of it all he has no purpose in life.

 

[Icarium]

The difference is Giles was never meant to be a tragic hero. His life just ended tragically.

You didn't answer my question. Character development isn't the same as character improvement, period. Heck, Wesley's most impressive development was when his life was in dire straights in S3-4, not his transformation from a loser to badass earlier, IMO.

The Buffy/Giles relationship was not repaired

Yes, it was. In a very sloppy and annoying way that made me want to find Joss and strangle him, mind you, but that's not the point.

Giles never moved on. He was never able to find someone who made him feel the way Jenny did. Giles had 2 full seasons of free time to move on. He never did.

That's your idea of character development? Maybe Giles didn't want to put another woman in danger. Maybe he just didn't meet the right woman. What's wrong with being single anyway?

Wesley trusted him in Season 5, he followed Angel's plan to attack the Circle of Black Thorn.

And Giles followed Buffy's moronic plan in Chosen, which was Joss's stupid way of saying they had reconciled. I am not saying the Angel-Wes situation was quite as bad but it was far from perfect and the Buffy-Giles hadn't parted ways for good as you claimed.

Are you serious? I just explained this. At the end of season 7 Giles had no love, no family, the Scoobies moved on with their own relationships, and Buffy no longer needed him. Very simply. I'm not denying Giles helped save the world, but at the end of it all he has no life.

And Wesley was dead at the end of his story and had no life apart from his job prior to his death, IIRC. This doesn't invalidate his previous accomplishment, so why does Giles being (supposedly) that pathetic by the end of S7 is the ultimate benchmark for his character? Giles had more than earned his retirement, even if he had no life post- Chosen - so what?

 

[Hale Caesar]

You didn't answer my question. Character development isn't the same as character improvement, period. Heck, Wesley's most impressive development was when his life was in dire straights in S3-4, not his transformation from a loser to badass earlier, IMO.

Okay. Let's agree with the fact that character development is not the same as character improvement. I then make the stance that Giles character did not improve on the show because of the point i've given before (his personal life being stagnant). In seasons 1-3 he was at his best. In season 4 he dropped. He returned to form in season 5 and in seasons 6 and 7 he plummeted to the bottom.

Yes, it was. In a very sloppy and annoying way that made me want to find Joss and strangle him, mind you, but that's not the point.

How did it get repaired? At the conclusion of season 7 there was no discussion between Buffy and Giles, she never apologized for what she said or even explained why she did. In season 8 Giles was noticeably distant from Buffy, In the "No Future for You" arc Giles tells Faith that he and Buffy are not on speaking terms. He then later dies and leaves all his things to Faith. How did they resolve anything?

That's your idea of character development? Maybe Giles didn't want to put another woman in danger. Maybe he just didn't meet the right woman. What's wrong with being single anyway?

He never stated any of those reasons. As fans we can only conclude what we know from facts, Giles never mentioned having feelings for anyone besides Jenny (Olivia was a bootycall during a time in his life when he was nothing thinking straight). And wouldn't Giles want to be in a relationship? He's deserves love and to eventually start a family, because in the Buffyverse life is short. And I never said there was anything wrong with being single, please don't make this personal, it's not relevant to this discussion and I have (for the most part) tried to keep civilized in this debate.

And Giles followed Buffy's moronic plan in Chosen, which was Joss's stupid way of saying they had reconciled. I am not saying the Angel-Wes situation was quite as bad but it was far from perfect and the Buffy-Giles hadn't parted ways for good as you claimed.

Wesley had his mind wiped of Connor and his betrayal. I admit this is lazy writing. But Wesley and Angel were fine in season 5. And for the reasons I stated above (season 8 and 9 exampels) Buffy and Giles did not end on good terms

And Wesley was dead at the end of his story and had no life apart from his job prior to his death, IIRC. This doesn't invalidate his previous accomplishment, so why does Giles being (supposedly) that pathetic by the end of S7 is the ultimate benchmark for his character? Giles had more than earned his retirement, even if he had no life post- Chosen - so what?

In season 5 of Angel Wesley was dealing with the moral issues of working for Wolfram and Hart. He finally faces the issues he has with his father, who constantly made him feel inferior, he turned out to be a robot but Wesley shot his own father!. He was finally able to confess his love for Fred and start a relationship with her. He had to deal with Fred's death which made him (briefly) fall into alcoholism. He attacked the Circle of the Black Thorn, because he supported Angel. He frickin died. Wesley was very busy i the fifth season of Angel.

I completely agree that Giles earned a retirement. So why didn't he retire? Why did he choose to stand around when the Scoobies didn't need him help? The reason it was pathetic to watch Giles in season 7 was because Giles used to be awesome, it was sad to see the role he took, he used to be the person with the most information and best advice in the room. The Giles in season 7 was a sad and almost depressing person to watch.

And post-Chosen Giles deserved a life. He was such an integral part of the development of Buffy and the rest of the Scoobies in the beginning (s1-s3 and s5). His mission was to mentor Buffy and he did, and as a result from this whole experience he has nothing to do. He found a temporary job mentoring Faith, but he never established a life for himself to live once he stopped fighting, which is why I feel bad for the guy.

 

[sisterofmercy]

Wesley, he was overall more developed I think. They could have explored Giles' dark side a bit more, whereas they went all out with Wes. I like Giles of course, but I found Wesley more interesting throughout Angel, whereas Giles kind of faded into the background in Buffy.

 

[Icarium]

And I never said there was anything wrong with being single, please don't make this personal, it's not relevant to this discussion and I have (for the most part) tried to keep civilized in this debate.

I wasn't trying to get personal, I merely wondered why you keep harping on Giles's lack of romantic partners. If there is nothing wrong with that why mention it at all in a list of problems you have with the character?

He never stated any of those reasons. As fans we can only conclude what we know from facts, Giles never mentioned having feelings for anyone besides Jenny (Olivia was a bootycall during a time in his life when he was nothing thinking straight).

Giles never liked discussing his romantic life with Buffy or Willow. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

He's deserves love and to eventually start a family, because in the Buffyverse life is short.

Buffy deserves millions of dollars for saving the world so often but oddly enough no one blames her not being a millionaire...

I completely agree that Giles earned a retirement. So why didn't he retire? Why did he choose to stand around when the Scoobies didn't need him help? The reason it was pathetic to watch Giles in season 7 was because Giles used to be awesome, it was sad to see the role he took, he used to be the person with the most information and best advice in the room. The Giles in season 7 was a sad and almost depressing person to watch.

I very much agree but my point is that accessing the entirety of Giles's role in the show by how he ended up in S7 is not something I can agree with. Not least because if I did that with other characters I would hate them all. 🙂

How did it get repaired?

In an incredibly dumb fashion and it unravelled off-screen because Joss needed more angst for the comics. I never said it was repaired well, did I?

 

[Mr Giles]

so Giles is tha fave 🙂

 

[Hale Caesar]

I wasn't trying to get personal, I merely wondered why you keep harping on Giles's lack of romantic partners. If there is nothing wrong with that why mention it at all in a list of problems you have with the character?

Because why wouldn't Giles want to start a family? It would the next natural thing for him to do. Buffy didn't need him anymore. He's got no job or anything left to do.

Giles never liked discussing his romantic life with Buffy or Willow. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Which ties back to his failed relationship with Buffy.

Buffy deserves millions of dollars for saving the world so often but oddly enough no one blames her not being a millionaire...

There are more important things in the world than money. Money does not equal happiness or love. Giles should have started a family.

I very much agree but my point is that accessing the entirety of Giles's role in the show by how he ended up in S7 is not something I can agree with. Not least because if I did that with other characters I would hate them all.

It's not only season 7 where Giles sucks. It's in in season 4 where he is no longer Buffy's mentor. It's in season 6 where he leaves Buffy at the most vulnerable time in her life. In season 8 where he is no longer on speaking terms with her. Giles is defined by this role and when he is not doing it he has no other real purpose.

In an incredibly dumb fashion and it unravelled off-screen because Joss needed more angst for the comics. I never said it was repaired well, did I?

How. Show me one piece of evidence where post-Season 7 Buffy/Giles were like they used to be. Show me the conversation they had where Buffy apologized to Giles. Acknowledge the fact that Giles told Faith he and Buffy are no longer on speaking terms, Buffy did not need Giles anymore. IT NEVER GOT FIXED.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I'm just going to chime in here with: maybe Giles doesn't want a family.

 

[Hale Caesar]

I'm just going to chime in here with: maybe Giles doesn't want a family.

A valid point. But since Buffy is on her own what else could Giles do post-Season 7? I hardly think living on his own is something he wanted to do (Season 4 showed how much he needed to be surrounded by people the he cared about)

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well I don't think the solution to not wanting to be alone is to rush out and have some kids...

 

[Icarium]

Because why wouldn't Giles want to start a family?

Because plenty of people in real life do just that? Show me where in the show Giles has indicated any overt desire to start a family. Maybe he wanted to, maybe he didn't, we don't really know.

Which ties back to his failed relationship with Buffy.

How so? He never wanted to discuss those things with her even when their relationship was incredibly strong, while she wanted even less to hear anything about his "gross" romantic life.

There are more important things in the world than money. Money does not equal happiness or love.

Neither does having a girlfriend. And you can replace "millions of dollars" with "the most perfect boyfriend ever" in my previous post and my point will still stand.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Because plenty of people in real life do just that? Show me where in the show Giles has indicated any overt desire to start a family. Maybe he wanted to, maybe he didn't, we don't really know.

Giles starting a family was my suggestion because he has nothing else going on. What possible meaningful direction can he take his life post-Season 7? He found a temporary job with Faith. Then he died. I would love to say that he found joy out of seeing Buffy succeed and grow, but she ended up not needing him and publicly embarrassing him, so when the most important person in your life does that to you it obviously is not a good feeling.

How so? He never wanted to discuss those things with her even when their relationship was incredibly strong, while she wanted even less to hear anything about his "gross" romantic life.

He never confided with anyone. It seems unnatural for him to never talk about this issue. And even so, if Giles did ever pour his emotions to Buffy I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't just walk away

Neither does having a girlfriend. And you can replace "millions of dollars" with "the most perfect boyfriend ever" in my previous post and my point will still stand.

Marriage was my suggestion, like i said before he had no life once Buffy grew up. There was nothing that could make him feel as fulfilled as when he was helping Buffy. Giles is no longer a young person, it's natural to assume starting a family would bring him the most happiness...because like I said he's got nothing going on.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Just one question: What do Giles' personal life achievements have to do with character developement? I mean, a character can be a loser with no friends or romances for the entire series, but still have other storylines that forwarding his character.

 

[EvilWillow]

Just one question: What do Giles' personal life achievements have to do with character developement? I mean, a character can be a loser with no friends or romances for the entire series, but still have other storylines that forwarding his character.

Yeah, I really don't understand that either.

Giles was a stud. If Buffy were real life, he'd never be alone. 😉

 

[Cast No Shadow]

It's fairly amusing how people can't seem to accept that others have different, and valid opinions...

Anyhoo...I preferred Giles, I just consider him to be the original and the best 🙂