Wesley's attitude.

[ItMustBeBunnies]

So ive been pondering (look out the monkey's thinking again....lol) Wesely's badass broody pants attitude occured because of everything that happened in season 3 when he stole Connor and all his friends abandoned him. At the end of season 4 Angel makes the deal to take over Wolfram & Hart in exchange for saving Cordy and making sure Connor is safe and everybody never even heard of him. Therefore the mess Wesley got himself into in season 3 never occured. So do you think that it would have made more sense for him to revert back to the lovable goof in a way?. His character was already developing and changing but would he have still been as pissy as he was in season 5 of Angel?. I think it would have been a bit of a jip for him to revert to form, but his major changes occured due to the circumstances. He wasn't as cranky as he was in season 4 and obviously Fred becoming Illyria wouldn't eactly put a spring in his step, but what about at the begining of the season?. Or do you think his broken heart over Fred choosing Gunn would have been enough for his attitude change?. Also him being with Lillah occured because he was completly isolated from the group, would he have still gone to her if none of the events concerning Connor in season 3 happened? Obviously the show states that he did but does that make sense?. I guess they couldn't go back and completely re-write all of the past events but in terms of his character would he have been with someone like her just because he couldn't have Fred at that point? Im not exactly even sure of my stance on the idea but I would love to hear all of yours, so thoughts?

 

[Lou]

Hmmmm.....good thinking little monkey!
I think I agree. Gonna have to sleep on it though.....

I mean, they didn't really make it so Connor didn't exist or none of it happened, because if they had, Cordy'd been there too and not in a coma. And then they'd not have even remembered most of S4.
Yeah, gonna have to sleep on it.

GOOD thinking though. I like it.
And, you're MY little monkey so think all you want!

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Hmm...now I have to come up with something intelligent and witty....

Ok, so as far as we know, Cyvus Vail and his warlocks completely changed the groups collective memories of what happened in Season 4. You would think that this would result in a Spin the Bottle style reversion to how the characters were a year ago, but it might not be so. We've seen in BtVS with the introduction of Dawn, that when inserting something into this reality, it's much easier to alter existing memories and objects than create new ones. This is shown when Buffy is under the influence of the Tirer la Couture ("Rotate Many Foodstuf.....er, Pull Back the Curtain. The trance that showed Dawn to be fake). Everything in the house was altered somewhat to include Dawn, but few things were created outright. The same, it would appear, goes for their memories. Of course, some are a complete fabrication, such as the Joyce bringing Dawn home in "The Weight of the World" and the Carouselle ride for Dawn's birthday, but the fact is the characters all remained the same people. The only noticable character change between Restless and Buffy vs. Dracula, was that Buffy whines about Dawn more than about her duties as the Slayer.

Now, what in the name of the Powers that Be and all things unholy does this have to do with Wesley? Well, I would think that the members of AI underwent a similar process. However, this time, instead of something being inserted into their reality, something was extracted. I'm that it would have been much simpler for Vail and his warlocks to follow the same route as the monks and simply remove Connor from the existing memories. So, I believe that (in AI's collective minds) the events of Season 3/4 all happened as they did, but simply without Connor being the catalyst. They just happened. Darla came to town, but she wasn't pregnant, just ill/fat/souled or something. Holtz came, and the prophesy said something similarly shocking, so Wesley betrayed Angel. He just did it over something slightly different. Cordelia was possessed, and they all dealt with Jasmine. They just accepted that she came; there was no reason for them to go "Hey, but doesn't a Power That Was need to orchestrate a mystical birth between two vampires and be spawn of said son to come into the world?". Cause frankly, that's rather ridiculous!

So, basically, how I see it is that Wesley still went through everything that happened. Since it was for altered reasons, it seems that there was less hatred on behalf of the rest of the group, so by the time they got to Season 5 they were much more chummy. He was still changed character, but the fewer inconsistincies in a spell like this the better, I would have thought.

Intelligent enough for ya? :silly:

 

[Washburne]

Gaaah! No need to follow that post by FbF but since I gave a promise here it is (yes I wrote it before I read his post. I want to copy it.).

As far as the crew (and the rest of the world) is concerned all things involving Connor never happened but does that mean that they are unaffected by it? Just because we don´t remember everything in our life doesn´t mean that it hasn´t "helped" us become the people we are today. Of course these events are way to big to be forgotten but you get the basic idea.

Do we know what memories that they got instead? Sure, it probably wasn't as lifechanging experiences as the ones including Connor but it can at least have been events that still would have "pushed" Wes in the same direction. Looking at how things progressed before Connor I don´t think that he had ended up with Lilah but that´s just me guessing of course. I really should have more to say but I think I need to wait until I watch the show again. Don´t hold your breath.

 

[Lou]

Well, okay, I gave it some thought.

FbF's theory is okay, except for the betraying Angel in some other way, because as they show in S5, Wesley has no memory of betraying him.

I figure, that their memories were just fuzzed up a bit. That would be the technical term, of course.
I mean how often, in our day to day lives, do we think back on everything that went down like that?
If they just kind of took Connor out of their memories...unless they were really thinking hard about the past, they might not remember.
For instance, I can remember times when I fought with my friends. I don't necessarily remember all the ins and outs of why...dirty looks here to there, snide comments....exactly how long it lasted.
There have even been times friends have said, "Remember that time we fought about (insert random reason here)" and I'm like, "nope".
So, perhaps it's just as simple as unless they were thinking, "Gee...it seems like when I was sleeping with Lilah that I wasn't showing up to work often" that they wouldn't even give it a second thought. And since Lilah was dead and kind of gone by then, there really wouldn't be a lot of reason to dwell on it, except for in Your Welcome when Cordy brings back memories of that time.

As an added bonus, since Connor was erased from their memories, it would seem that even if they DID think about it, they'd never really get to an answer and would eventually give up.

 

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

Looking at how things progressed before Connor I don´t think that he had ended up with Lilah but that´s just me guessing of course. I really should have more to say but I think I need to wait until I watch the show again. Don´t hold your breath.

when you guys question whether wes and lilah had a relationship in the fabricated memories, this might make it clearer. seems they did. quoted from lineage:

WESLEY: You want to talk about me. All right. The last girl I was with I had to chop into little tiny pieces because a higher power saw fit to stab her in the neck.

 

[AgentX7k]

Basically it was too hard to rewrite the show so they just hinted at stuff. I say things were identical as possible to keep the character development consistent. I think Joss/Alexis said Wesley went through a dark period though though it isn't clear what.

 

[plenilune]

So, basically, how I see it is that Wesley still went through everything that happened. Since it was for altered reasons, it seems that there was less hatred on behalf of the rest of the group, so by the time they got to Season 5 they were much more chummy. He was still changed character, but the fewer inconsistincies in a spell like this the better, I would have thought.

Aye aye, I agree with this. My personal interpretation is that no-one really knew what had happened the year before -- it all seemed oddly fuzzy, but they never thought about it for very long, because the spell would poke its head in and be all "oh hey, something much more interesting is going on over there; why are you thinking about this?". In folklore and fantasy novels there are often spells that keep people from seeing things or thinking about them if they happen to notice them (or Douglas Adams' SEP Field -- Somebody Else's Problem!), so I like to think the removing-memories-of-Connor spell had something like this as a built in defense, just in case someone, late at night, suddenly thought, "...so, why is Cordelia in a coma, anyway? The details seem awfully fuzzy..."

 

[palabravampiress]

Wow. I always admired Wesley's character development, but you guys have made me think about it in a new way. I never questioned why Wes changed because he told us. "I had my throat slit and then all of my friends abandoned me," he told Gunn. With the memories of Connor extracted, though, the impetus for the throat-slitting plot point and the abandonment plot point would, as far as the Fang Gang were concerned, have never existed.

Oy. I have nothing more intelligent to say on this. My brain kinda wants to explode. lol. I think I'll just bow to Lindsey McDonald's superior knowledge on this one and agree with what he said. 🙂

 

[Fresley4ever]

The funny thing about it is the actors were not even sure what exactly was erased. Wesley was devastated by Gunn and Fred getting together which was still true in the storyline with the change. That was still impacting him quite a bit. Though it wasn't as bad as the first time. Wesley wouldn't revert back to goofy Wesley because if you noticed in the beginning of season three that had already started to change. He wasn't acting that goofy in that season. He had changed a lot because he had been in charge for a while and had to do a lot of growing up to fit the position. He became more confident, figured out just what he was good at, and according to Alexis didn't want to look like a fool around Fred. You also have to consider that Cordelia was in a coma at the end of season four. That probably affected his attitude as well. He was not happy with what happened to her. He even felt guilty for not catching it sooner to save her. I am not sure what storyline they put in to have that make sense but we know that he still remembers Cordy and the Jasmine incident based on Your Welcome. So overall I thought his attitude made sense. You actually can see some differences in Home like he goes from being a complete ass to Angel to not anymore after Angel said he took the deal. Even in early season five he acts like he and Angel are still close friends even though Angel still treats him like an outsider and says he can't be trusted with 'his people.' We found that out in the beginning of Lineage. Wesley still had his fling with Lilah so her death was also on his mind. So there was still enough tragedies for his grumpiness to be explained.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think S5 Wesley was notably lighter than S4 Wes, surely not like his early days though.

In S5 we see that his bumbling was due to insecurity also touched on by Angelus in S1 & 4. He was pretty confidant now, he saw that even away from Angel & the Watcher's Council he was one of the most effective demon hunters around.

He was still dark because he lost Cordy who was really his only consistent friend since Buffy S3, he decapitated the second woman he loved (Lilah), and his true love wasn't with him.

Imo, his relationship with Angel never really recovered following Redefinition. They were kind of pals for Wes' first year in LA, but there was tension between the two after they reunited in Epiphany onward. There was mutual respect, but little trust.

I believe that Wes & Gunn are the only two of Angel's "Lieutenants" that Angel never expressed love for. He flat out said that he loved Fred & Cordy. And it was extremely obvious that he felt that way about Doyle & Spike.

 

[Fresley4ever]

I think S5 Wesley was notably lighter than S4 Wes, surely not like his early days though.

In S5 we see that his bumbling was due to insecurity also touched on by Angelus in S1 & 4. He was pretty confidant now, he saw that even away from Angel & the Watcher's Council he was one of the most effective demon hunters around.

He was still dark because he lost Cordy who was really his only consistent friend since Buffy S3, he decapitated the second woman he loved (Lilah), and his true love wasn't with him.

Imo, his relationship with Angel never really recovered following Redefinition. They were kind of pals for Wes' first year in LA, but there was tension between the two after they reunited in Epiphany onward. There was mutual respect, but little trust.

I believe that Wes & Gunn are the only two of Angel's "Lieutenants" that Angel never expressed love for. He flat out said that he loved Fred & Cordy. And it was extremely obvious that he felt that way about Doyle & Spike.

I agree with you. I don't think Wesley trusted Angel after that point either. He also lost trust in Gunn after That Old Gang Of Mine. Yes Wesley was lighter in season five and I do think that Cordy and Lilah had something to do with him still being dower. He also was struggling with that fact that Fred only viewed him as a friend.