Wesley's Memories in "Origin" (5.18)

[LadyLavinia]

Someone on another forum pointed out that many of the memories that Wesley had regained in "Origin" (5.18) were of his romance with Lilah during S4.

I found this odd, especially since Wesley seemed to have memories of his romance with Lilah in both "Lineage" (5.07) and "You're Welcome" (5.12).

So, had it been a mistake for the ME writers to allow Wesley to have memories of his relationship with Lilah before "Origin" had aired? Or was it a mistake to show him regaining his memories of the Wes/Lilah ship in that particular episode?

 

[nerd4hire]

The "original reality" montage is not just about Wesley's memories. There are bits of stuff that happened when Wesley was nowhere around.

It's more just a montage signifying that knowledge of the original reality before it was altered has escaped from the Orlon Window.

As far as memories of Lilah being altered in Wesley's brain goes, I'd always assumed it was only those memories connected to Lilah that would suggest the existence of Connor that had been altered along with the original reality.

In the montage it's the hot scenes between Wesley and Lilah that appear. That's just poetic license. Add a little hot stuff.

Also remember the memories haven't just been wiped. They've been altered. Wes uses the phrase "Altered reality".

 

[LadyLavinia]

The "original reality" montage is not just about Wesley's memories. There are bits of stuff that happened when Wesley was nowhere around.

It's more just a montage signifying that knowledge of the original reality before it was altered has escaped from the Orlon Window.

As far as memories of Lilah being altered in Wesley's brain goes, I'd always assumed it was only those memories connected to Lilah that would suggest the existence of Connor that had been altered along with the original reality.

In the montage it's the hot scenes between Wesley and Lilah that appear. That's just poetic license. Add a little hot stuff.

Also remember the memories haven't just been wiped. They've been altered. Wes uses the phrase "Altered reality".

In which episode was it openly stated that the Fang Gang's memories were altered? I thought that all memories pertaining to Connor were wiped. And why should Wes have memories of his affair with Lilah in the first place? It doesn't make sense, since CONNOR was the catalyst of the affair. If Wes had not kidnapped Connor, Gavin Park would not have told Lilah that he had been ousted by Angel and the others. And she would not have bothered to recruit him.

I get the feeling that many people are trying to make excuses for what might be a major blooper on the ME's part.

 

[nerd4hire]

In which episode was it openly stated that the Fang Gang's memories were altered?

I get the feeling that many people are trying to make excuses for what might be a major blooper on the ME's part.

From Origin:

WESLEY
(reading the file Lorne handed him)
Not just him. He supervised some of the most powerful sorcerers on the west coast.

LORNE
Manpower like that, I'm guessing he wasn't doing card tricks.

WESLEY
Some sort of reality shift, and it"” Oh...

From You're Welcome:

ANGEL
(walks into the living room)
They don't remember him. It's part of my agreement to take this job. The senior partners altered reality.

Yes some memories have been wiped as a result of the "altered reality". Other memories have been built. Connor's new family for instance would need new memories. Exactly what these alterations are, we can only guess at. The writers aren't offering a televised seminar on altered realities, you know. They're telling a story.

And no, people who actually noticed all the mentions of altered realities aren't making excuses. They're informing you what exists in the scripts. The Connor thing was an altered reality. It's a black and white fact.

 

[LadyLavinia]

From Origin:



From You're Welcome:



Yes some memories have been wiped as a result of the "altered reality". Other memories have been built. Connor's new family for instance would need new memories. Exactly what these alterations are, we can only guess at. The writers aren't offering a televised seminar on altered realities, you know. They're telling a story.

And no, people who actually noticed all the mentions of altered realities aren't making excuses. They're informing you what exists in the scripts. The Connor thing was an altered reality. It's a black and white fact.

By wiping away the gang's memories of Connor, reality was altered, nerd4hire. Which means that Wes should not have had memories of his affair with Lilah.

 

[nerd4hire]

There's a difference between a memory wipe and an altered reality. I'll try to show it to you with examples. Perhaps this will show you how things have to be interpreted differently with an altered reality, than they do with a simple memory wipe.

Memory Wipe

Glory/Ben, Ben/Glory; All memory and knowledge of any connection between Ben and Glory is immediately wiped from this reality. That's all.

Angel, Angelus, and the Beast

All knowledge of the Beast was wiped from this reality. That's all. Angelus was not in this reality at the time of the wipe so he was immune to it. That's the way it was explained.

Alternate Reality

Dawn; A new reality is created in which a new person is added to it. All memories that might conflict with this new addition are erased or altered.

Connor; The same as with Dawn. In the new reality Connor has a new family and a new life with them. All memories in any individual who now has a connection to Connor have been subtracted from here, and new memories are added to there to make his existence in their lives make sense.

In Lilah's case those aspects of any connection to Connor would have been altered. Wesley could still have had an affair with Lillah in the new reality, but the old reality where Lillah did or said anything that any way connected her to Connor would have been altered.

*

There's a theory Science Fiction writers sometimes use to explain this alternate reality stuff. I heard somewhere it has something to do with quantum theory.

It goes something like; All possible consequences of any possible action already exist. They exist in kind of a different dimension, vibrating at a different wavelenghth.

When the monks or Cyvus Vale and associates, or whoever want to create an altered reality, they simply grab the bits they want from the alternative realities and patch them into this one, or create an entirely different reality.

 

[LadyLavinia]

There's a difference between a memory wipe and an altered reality. I'll try to show it to you with examples. Perhaps this will show you how things have to be interpreted differently with an altered reality, than they do with a simple memory wipe.

Memory Wipe

Glory/Ben, Ben/Glory; All memory and knowledge of any connection between Ben and Glory is immediately wiped from this reality. That's all.

Angel, Angelus, and the Beast

All knowledge of the Beast was wiped from this reality. That's all. Angelus was not in this reality at the time of the wipe so he was immune to it. That's the way it was explained.

Alternate Reality

Dawn; A new reality is created in which a new person is added to it. All memories that might conflict with this new addition are erased or altered.

Connor; The same as with Dawn. In the new reality Connor has a new family and a new life with them. All memories in any individual who now has a connection to Connor have been subtracted from here, and new memories are added to there to make his existence in their lives make sense.

In Lilah's case those aspects of any connection to Connor would have been altered. Wesley could still have had an affair with Lillah in the new reality, but the old reality where Lillah did or said anything that any way connected her to Connor would have been altered.

*

There's a theory Science Fiction writers sometimes use to explain this alternate reality stuff. I heard somewhere it has something to do with quantum theory.

It goes something like; All possible consequences of any possible action already exist. They exist in kind of a different dimension, vibrating at a different wavelenghth.

When the monks or Cyvus Vale and associates, or whoever want to create an altered reality, they simply grab the bits they want from the alternative realities and patch them into this one, or create an entirely different reality.

I'm sorry, nerd4hire, but I think you have wasted your time. I'm still not convinced. I think the writers screwed up by having Wes remember Lilah, so that he could move on and allow his character to be "all about Fred". Just as Whedon wanted, due to his own infatuation with the character and actress Amy Acker.

 

[nerd4hire]

Oh OK, I get it. ROFLMAO. I thought you actually didn't understand how an alternate reality story worked in sci-fi/fantasy fiction.

I get it now though. You just don't like Fred. I forgive you, because it must be kind of lonely in the "We hate Fred", clubhouse. 🙂

 

[Feigenbaum]

I'm not sure that I'm intelligent enough to exactly jump into this conversation, but I'm just going to point my big toe in.

The senior partners altered reality. I'm trying to remember something; didn't Connor kind of show an inkling of remembering his life with Angel during season five? Or am I remembering that wrong? I thought that Connor showed some confusion, but never really stated until after that orb had broken that sent the memories back. That's what makes me think it was an altered reality.

But maybe I'm way off base. I just want to say that I agree with you nerd4hire, about the altered reality. That is why Wes would have rememberd Lilah. And destiny may have been that Wes and Lilah may have gotten together without Connor's involvement. We could probably actually attribute that to Jasmine, because she arragned Connor, which in turn spawned the Wes/Lilah relationship.

And you clearly tell that Wes has been infatuated with Fred from the start. So, I'm not exactly sure that is was such a difference for Wes to start with Fred. Their relationship only began because the opportunity was there: Gunn and Fred were no longer together.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm not sure that I'm intelligent enough to exactly jump into this conversation, but I'm just going to point my big toe in.

The senior partners altered reality. I'm trying to remember something; didn't Connor kind of show an inkling of remembering his life with Angel during season five? Or am I remembering that wrong? I thought that Connor showed some confusion, but never really stated until after that orb had broken that sent the memories back. That's what makes me think it was an altered reality.

But maybe I'm way off base. I just want to say that I agree with you nerd4hire, about the altered reality. That is why Wes would have rememberd Lilah. And destiny may have been that Wes and Lilah may have gotten together without Connor's involvement. We could probably actually attribute that to Jasmine, because she arragned Connor, which in turn spawned the Wes/Lilah relationship.

And you clearly tell that Wes has been infatuated with Fred from the start. So, I'm not exactly sure that is was such a difference for Wes to start with Fred. Their relationship only began because the opportunity was there: Gunn and Fred were no longer together.

Was Wes still infatuated with Fred by late Season 4? Or was his feelings for her different . . . especially after "Player"?

 

[Feigenbaum]

Of course Wesley was still infatued with Fred.... it just wasn't as evident in early season five because he had decided to back off.

One more thing I thought of... I've been thinking about the mindwipe/altered reality thing. I'm a more firm believe that the senior partners altered reality, because at least two people knew of Conner before the events in "Origin": Cordelia and Eve. One would assume that a mind wipe would've taken their memories as well, why were they still spared the memory? That leads me to believe altered reality, because somebody always remembers the old reality. A good example would be Anya/Anyaka in "The Wish". She still remembered the old reality in the new one.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I've discovered that I'm not the only one who is confused by what Wes had remembered in Season Five. A few viewers had posted their own opinions on one of the LIVE JOURNAL discussion forums:

(Anonymous)
2004-04-29 11:03 (link)
I went over the returned memories frame by frame, and they are ... confusing. Two scenes of Lilah-as-Fred, including the only Weslah scene that was really discernable without freeze-framing. But there was also one scene of Angelus snacking on Lilah's corpse, and two Deep Down scenes of Wes and Lilah holding each other in bed. Odd choices, given the lack of Lilah mentions lately.

It would have been really cool and meaningful and emotionally complex if the writers had linked Wesley's desire to save Illyria with his guilt over not trying to redeem Lilah. But as it stands, I have no idea what ME wants us to believe about Wesley's feelings for Lilah. It seems they want Wes to be all about Fred all of the time, but then why bother to show us his memories of Lilah when we've already been told he remembers her? File it under things that make me go "huh?"

But there was also one scene of Angelus snacking on Lilah's corpse . . .

Which totally confuses me as Wes knows Cordelia/Jasmine killed Lilah ("Lineage"/"You're Welcome") so if he remembered that why wouldn't he remember Angelus and Lilah....arrrgh, I d'know. Probably looking for more continuity than ME ever dreamed of putting in there, I guess.

One of my questions is that why does Wesley remember that it was Jasmine/Cordy who had killed Lilah in "You're Welcome", yet one of the memories restored to him was that of Angelus snacking on Lilah's blood in "Release"?

And if Wesley did have memories of his romance with Lilah, why are there so many intimate Wes/Lilah scenes amongst the memories restored to him in the same episode?

 

[The Arcane]

I've purposely only skimmed the posts after the first one of this thread because i'm rushing a little so i apologise if i'm repeating anything here.

The way i see it, it was only the memory details that specifically related to Connor that were altered. The Fang Gang remembered everything from the events of Offspring to the events of Peace Out pretty much the way they actually occured, just with elements altered to refit the Connorless reality.

For example, they will remember Darla returning and getting dusted, only now without the pregnancy deal. Darla may just have returned for revenge and Angel killed her, as far as they remember.

They will remember Holtz and Sarhjhan, only now Sarhjhan will have just had a grudge against Angel and have brought Holtz to destroy him, rather than Connor. Sarhjhan will have been captured in the same way, Holtz will have been killed by Angel.

They will remember that Wes betrayed Angel, only now because of a different reason. Maybe he betrayed him because Sarhjhan created a prophecy that Angel would bring about the end of the world and that Holtz was to be a part of stopping it occuring. Wes goes to Holtz for help only to later find he has been set up and is alienated from the gang that way. This would still allow him to end up with Lilah.

They will remember Angel being sunk to the bottom of the sea, only now maybe by Justine alone in revenge for killing Holtz.

Obviously this is all just speculation but nothing i have suggested is out of the question. My main point is that their reality can be rewritten to omit Connor but still stay very much intact to what actually happened.

One of my questions is that why does Wesley remember that it was Jasmine/Cordy who had killed Lilah in "You're Welcome", yet one of the memories restored to him was that of Angelus snacking on Lilah's blood in "Release"?

And if Wesley did have memories of his romance with Lilah, why are there so many intimate Wes/Lilah scenes amongst the memories restored to him in the same episode?

As N4H explained earlier, what we saw happening in Origin wasn't just Wes getting some memories back, it was the true reality being released from the Orlon Window. Events were released that had little or nothing to do with Wes as the Window didn't just contain things related to him, it held the entirity of the events of the original reality.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

The only clips i remember off hand that Wes remembered of Lilah was her dressed as Fred me and a friend thought that that signified him not being near Fred during that time.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I've purposely only skimmed the posts after the first one of this thread because i'm rushing a little so i apologise if i'm repeating anything here.

The way i see it, it was only the memory details that specifically related to Connor that were altered. The Fang Gang remembered everything from the events of Offspring to the events of Peace Out pretty much the way they actually occured, just with elements altered to refit the Connorless reality.

For example, they will remember Darla returning and getting dusted, only now without the pregnancy deal. Darla may just have returned for revenge and Angel killed her, as far as they remember.

They will remember Holtz and Sarhjhan, only now Sarhjhan will have just had a grudge against Angel and have brought Holtz to destroy him, rather than Connor. Sarhjhan will have been captured in the same way, Holtz will have been killed by Angel.

They will remember that Wes betrayed Angel, only now because of a different reason. Maybe he betrayed him because Sarhjhan created a prophecy that Angel would bring about the end of the world and that Holtz was to be a part of stopping it occuring. Wes goes to Holtz for help only to later find he has been set up and is alienated from the gang that way. This would still allow him to end up with Lilah.

They will remember Angel being sunk to the bottom of the sea, only now maybe by Justine alone in revenge for killing Holtz.

Obviously this is all just speculation but nothing i have suggested is out of the question. My main point is that their reality can be rewritten to omit Connor but still stay very much intact to what actually happened.



As N4H explained earlier, what we saw happening in Origin wasn't just Wes getting some memories back, it was the true reality being released from the Orlon Window. Events were released that had little or nothing to do with Wes as the Window didn't just contain things related to him, it held the entirity of the events of the original reality.

Don't you think they would have question why their memories of certain incidents that have such a strong tie to Connor are at best, murky?

The only clips i remember off hand that Wes remembered of Lilah was her dressed as Fred me and a friend thought that that signified him not being near Fred during that time.

Why is Wes not being near Fred during the time Lilah was dressed as her, such a major significance?


After all this, I guess I'll have to conclude that ME's handling of the whole issue - especially in how it related to Wesley, was badly handled. I guess the rest of you think otherwise. But it really disappointed me.

 

[The Arcane]

Don't you think they would have question why their memories of certain incidents that have such a strong tie to Connor are at best, murky?

Why is it that you think their memories would be murky in any way? I would imagine that Vale made the fake memories to be just as real and fluid as the ones they were meant to replace. I doubt that Wolfram & Hart would use anyone that couldn't do a first class job.

Besides, as long as everything added up there would be no reason for the Fang Gang to question what they remembered. It was only when Wes discovered what Angel had done that any of them really noticed the change. Even the prompts from what Cordy said in You're Welcome weren't enough to make them realise things had changed. Your memories are your memories, if they make sense to you then there is no reason why you would think they were altered.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Why is Wes not being near Fred during the time Lilah was dressed as her, such a major significance?

I didn't think so, that was actuly her idea... she is totaly anti Fresley and pro Wes/Lilah so I don't know.

 

[Mulder22]

Here's a question I have. Is Wes the only one of the Fang gang to get his memories back. I thought I remember Vale saying that only people near the box when it breaks will remember reality.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Here's a question I have. Is Wes the only one of the Fang gang to get his memories back. I thought I remember Vale saying that only people near the box when it breaks will remember reality.

Wes & Illyria... that's it. Although, Connor got his back too.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I didn't think so, that was actuly her idea... she is totaly anti Fresley and pro Wes/Lilah so I don't know.

I brought it up, because one of the memories that Wesley had regained in episode 5.18 was Lilah dressed up as Fred. Or have you forgotten? This has nothing to do with my opinion of Fresley or Wilah or whatever the hell you seem to think. I really get tired of people making assumptions of others, without bothering to ask.