What About The Shanshu?

[white avenger]

Angel has been supposedly working to be worthy of the Shanshu, becoming once more human, since Season 2 of "Angel," and he was actually assured in Season 5 that he was, in fact, the one who would receive it. So what happens to that award now that all magic is (supposedly) expelled from the Buffyverse? The same principal of the current Slayers remaining Slayers and Angel's and Spike's souls still being intact because those are preexisting conditions wouldn't seem to apply to the Shanshu, because it doesn't exist yet. So, is the award and, with it, all hope of restored humanity for Angel, lost forever? Or do you think that it is still a viable thing?

 

[Christopher]

Angel has been supposedly working to be worthy of the Shanshu, becoming once more human, since Season 2 of "Angel," and he was actually assured in Season 5 that he was, in fact, the one who would receive it. So what happens to that award now that all magic is (supposedly) expelled from the Buffyverse? The same principal of the current Slayers remaining Slayers and Angel's and Spike's souls still being intact because those are preexisting conditions wouldn't seem to apply to the Shanshu, because it doesn't exist yet. So, is the award and, with it, all hope of restored humanity for Angel, lost forever? Or do you think that it is still a viable thing?

It was awarded to and subsequently rejected by him in season 1 episode 'I will remember You', Angel just never acknowledged it.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It was awarded to and subsequently rejected by him in season 1 episode 'I will remember You', Angel just never acknowledged it.

I always thought the same. He gave up twice living (almost) as a human - with the ring of Amarah, and then in I will remember you. He was given the chance, so that must be it. I don't think he deserve it now very much.

But there's a problem with that theory, if I understand right what you were trying to say. The Shanshu is supposed to be given after a big appocalypse and blah blah blah, and by then it seems like it didn't happen yet.

So anyone could still get it. Maybe there will be another vampire with a soul in the world. We don't know for sure. It could be Dru, it could be Harmony. Sounds crazy, but it can happen. No one gave a specific date for when this is going to happen. It could happen 100 years from now. There might be many appocalypses by then. How do we know which one is the right one that the prophecy is talking about.

 

[zobothehobo]

Question: when was he assured in season 5 the prophecy was about him? When he signed his rights to it away? Or when Spike beat him in the fake cup thing?

As far as I'm concerned, Angel signed his rights to it away in season 5. If he wants it now, too bad.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Christopher agrees: Angel indirectly stopped an Apocalypse at the end of Buffy S2, maybe it just took a while for 'processing'?

Yeah, he signaled her with his eyes 😀

 

[Wesley]

Question: when was he assured in season 5 the prophecy was about him? When he signed his rights to it away? Or when Spike beat him in the fake cup thing?

As far as I'm concerned, Angel signed his rights to it away in season 5. If he wants it now, too bad.

Although this has been covered many times. I can't imagine signing his name on a piece of paper, or failing to drink some Mountain Dew means you're not the subject of the Shanshu.

It's pretty well established he is the prophesied vampire with a soul in at least a couple different slots. If nothing else look at the inordinate amount of time WR&H spends on him. If he was just one of several options, they sure are wasting a lot of money.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Although this has been covered many times. I can't imagine signing his name on a piece of paper, or failing to drink some Mountain Dew means you're not the subject of the Shanshu.

It's pretty well established he is the prophesied vampire with a soul in at least a couple different slots. If nothing else look at the inordinate amount of time WR&H spends on him. If he was just one of several options, they sure are wasting a lot of money.

But the question is, did they really know? Could they really know somehow that he is the one and he couldn't? And how? Did they take a psychic to tell them that? Maybe they just spent time on him because he was "special", because THERE WAS A CHANCE that it was him. They guessed, I think. I mean, they didn't even see another vampire with a soul joining to the soul club - Spike. Because Angel was the only vampire with a soul in the world, probably ever, they just assumed it was him.

 

[Kean]

Although this has been covered many times. I can't imagine signing his name on a piece of paper, or failing to drink some Mountain Dew means you're not the subject of the Shanshu.

It's pretty well established he is the prophesied vampire with a soul in at least a couple different slots. If nothing else look at the inordinate amount of time WR&H spends on him. If he was just one of several options, they sure are wasting a lot of money.

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that a prophecy cannot be so easily discarded simply because it is unwanted. Look at Buffy, her death was prophecised twice. In S1 she didn't want it. She tried to fight it but she died anyway. And again with IWRY. Angel was told she would die at the end of days, he offered his life for hers but she died anyway. Then there is "The father will kill the son". Wesley tried to prevent that happening but Angel still ended up having to slit Connor's throat.

In each of these incidences the prophecies came about in a way that wasn't necessarily anticipated but still satisfied the prophecy in question.

Point is, there is no avoiding a prophecy. It's gonna happen, some how, some way.

So, unless the magic situation rules it out, I think that it is pretty much a certainty that Shanshu will happen. Could be next week or the next millennium, but I believe it will happen.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that a prophecy cannot be so easily discarded simply because it is unwanted. Look at Buffy, her death was prophecised twice. In S1 she didn't want it. She tried to fight it but she died anyway. And again with IWRY. Angel was told she would die at the end of days, he offered his life for hers but she died anyway. Then there is "The father will kill the son". Wesley tried to prevent that happening but Angel still ended up having to slit Connor's throat.

In each of these incidences the prophecies came about in a way that wasn't necessarily anticipated but still satisfied the prophecy in question.

Point is, there is no avoiding a prophecy. It's gonna happen, some how, some way.

So, unless the magic situation rules it out, I think that it is pretty much a certainty that Shanshu will happen. Could be next week or the next millennium, but I believe it will happen.

Agree about everything, except I'm really not sure we'll get to actually see it happen. Becaues turning Angel into human means it will end the Spuffy/Bangel dilema, and Joss doesn't want that. He will never conclude that issue. He wants us to keep fighting.
But I'm still holding my fingers for it to be Spike 😀

 

[Flannen]

But the question is, did they really know? Could they really know somehow that he is the one and he couldn't? And how? Did they take a psychic to tell them that? Maybe they just spent time on him because he was "special", because THERE WAS A CHANCE that it was him. They guessed, I think. I mean, they didn't even see another vampire with a soul joining to the soul club - Spike. Because Angel was the only vampire with a soul in the world, probably ever, they just assumed it was him.

I think these are valid questions but given the nature of WR&H I don't think it fits with who they are for them to be so haphazard with something so serious. I don't think they would risk all they did just in case there was a chance. Personally, I wouldn't underestimate WR&H or they're capabilities to find out what they need to know.

 

[white avenger]

Becaues turning Angel into human means it will end the Spuffy/Bangel dilema, and Joss doesn't want that. He will never conclude that issue. He wants us to keep fighting.
But I'm still holding my fingers for it to be Spike 😀

Agreed, Joss has no intention of clearing this threesome up as long as he can milk interest out of it, and I. also am rooting for Spike to be the Chosen One, but I really don't see how this will in and of itself ever actually influence Buffy's decision as to which, if either, man she chooses.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think these are valid questions but given the nature of WR&H I don't think it fits with who they are for them to be so haphazard with something so serious. I don't think they would risk all they did just in case there was a chance. Personally, I wouldn't underestimate WR&H or they're capabilities to find out what they need to know.

Because Spike didn't have a soul when they "tracked" Angel, they never would have thought that another vampire will earn his soul back. And since Angel was the only vampire with a soul in the history (as far as we know), they could just assume it was him. Who would have thought that a vampire, out of his own will, will get himself a soul. That could never happen (well, Spike's special I guess, he is a very different kind of vampire). And I don't think they thought it could happen. They didn't even put that in question. They say: "here's a vampire with a soul who's been fighting on the good side. He is the one from the prophecy for sure, because there is no one else!"

It doesn't even have to be Spike or Angel. And if it will happen, it might happen 200 years later, when a new vampire decides to be good (that rarely happens, so they didn't consider another option) and earn himself a soul.
There weren't any solid proves it's about Angel (or Spike!) so I think it was all just guess work.

 

[Christopher]

This reminds me of the end of Chosen, when Buffy and Angel discuss the amulet.

ANGEL: This is for an ensouled champion, but not you.
BUFFY: Oh cheers mate, as you're one of the two vampires with a soul is it you?
ANGEL: No love, 'not me' say the lying, scheming corporation that want to end the world.
BUFFY: Oh dear, well son I'll definitely use it during the apocalypse.
ANGEL: Sugar tits, if only there was an ensouled champion we could use it on.
BUFFY: Yep, I wonder what I'm gonna do with it.

*B&A THEN HAVE A FIVE MINUTE CONVERSATION ABOUT SPIKE*

BUFFY: God knows who I'm gonna give this Amulet to.
ANGEL: Beats me.

 

[Flannen]

Because Spike didn't have a soul when they "tracked" Angel, they never would have thought that another vampire will earn his soul back. And since Angel was the only vampire with a soul in the history (as far as we know), they could just assume it was him. Who would have thought that a vampire, out of his own will, will get himself a soul. That could never happen (well, Spike's special I guess, he is a very different kind of vampire). And I don't think they thought it could happen. They didn't even put that in question. They say: "here's a vampire with a soul who's been fighting on the good side. He is the one from the prophecy for sure, because there is no one else!"

It doesn't even have to be Spike or Angel. And if it will happen, it might happen 200 years later, when a new vampire decides to be good (that rarely happens, so they didn't consider another option) and earn himself a soul.
There weren't any solid proves it's about Angel (or Spike!) so I think it was all just guess work.

Again, I do get what you're saying but I just don't see WR&H doing what they did on guesswork alone. It just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. I can see why you could think it was guesswork but it just doesn't fit. But the fact that I absolutely think the Shanshu is about Angel probably directs me to the theory I have. If it isn't Angel then rest assured I will never ever watch or care for this show again!

 

[Kean]

Again, I do get what you're saying but I just don't see WR&H doing what they did on guesswork alone. It just doesn't make sense to me, that's all. I can see why you could think it was guesswork but it just doesn't fit. But the fact that I absolutely think the Shanshu is about Angel probably directs me to the theory I have. If it isn't Angel then rest assured I will never ever watch or care for this show again!

If it isn't about Angel then Ats was a waste of time, if not a farce. I don't necessarily believe we will see him get Shanshu but I would like to still regard the 5 seasons as having their integrity intact.

 

[Flannen]

If it isn't about Angel then Ats was a waste of time, if not a farce. I don't necessarily believe we will see him get Shanshu but I would like to still regard the 5 seasons as having their integrity intact.

This! Exactly this! This is the reason I find it so hard to think that Spike should even be an option. Like you say, if it isn't Angel then the whole four series before Spike showed up will be completely obselete and a waste of time, effort and money and that's before I even get on to the fiction/character side of things as to why it isn't and shouldn't be anyone but Angel. I can entertain the idea that Spike fans would like to see him being the 'Chosen One' but not at the expense of a whole TV show built on the premise of being Angel, not to mention Angel's personal story of redemption.

 

[white avenger]

If it isn't about Angel then Ats was a waste of time, if not a farce. I don't necessarily believe we will see him get Shanshu but I would like to still regard the 5 seasons as having their integrity intact.

I fail to see the logic in this. ATS was the story of the evolution of a man from what could be defined as more or less Lois Lane to Buffy's Clark Kent (lousy analogy, but I think that you get the point) from sidekick to defender of the weak, to hero, to champion. Whether or not he ever gets awarded the Shanshu really has nothing to do with that. In fact, if Angel did all that he did with his ultimate reasoning and final goal being made human again, regardless of why he wanted that humanity, it would actually cheapen what he ultimately managed to accomplish. ATS is Angel's story, pure and simple. No ulterior motives, private goals, or hidden agendas.But, really, if W&H and the Senior Partners were truthful about Angel actually being the recipient, and that the reward was FROM THEM for services rendered in the final, accept no substitutes, one and only, REAL apocalypse, that pretty well means that, come that time, he and Buffy will be fighting on opposite sides again.

As for W&H spending so much money setting Angel up to be their ensouled vampire fall guy, that wasn't, or at least almost certainly didn't appear to be, any great gamble at the time. Vampires with souls, except for him, were totally nonexistent. They were betting on the only horse in a one horse race. No chance whatsoever that he wasn't going to cross the finish line first. Then Spike did the unthinkable, and suddenly it's a two horse race for the first time.

For the record, I think that Angel is almost certainly the vampire who will ultimately receive the Shanshu, though I'm not certain whether he's receiving it as an award, or if he's just exchanging one curse (his soul) for another (the loss of his powers when Buffy might need him the most).

Ultimately, I guess only time will tell. Cause Joss sure isn't being very free with the details.

 

[thunderhawk86]

Theoretically does it really matter which vampire gets Shanshu'd? Unless the only Mohra demon in existance was killed by Angel, whichever of the 2 didn't get it could become human anyways by mixing blood with the Mohra demon again. Although most signs point to angel. I guess whomever is contacted by the Powers that Be to be their Champion again after this S8 mess will probably get.

 

[LadyLavinia]

If Angel does receive the Shanshu, does that mean he will return to the same mortal state that he was before becoming a vampire? Or will he get to keep the soul given to him by the Romanian gypsies?

 

[BuffangelLovE]

If Angel does receive the Shanshu, does that mean he will return to the same mortal state that he was before becoming a vampire? Or will he get to keep the soul given to him by the Romanian gypsies?

Um... he becomes mortal again. He gets his soul and humanity back permanently.
That's what receiving Shanshu will cause. (At least it's what has been implied on the show)