What About The Shanshu?

[Moscow Watcher]

I think Angel's window of opportunity to shanshue has closed in spring 1997, when The WB renewed BtVS for the second season. Angel shanshued in Prophecy Girl script, but as soon as it became clear that the show wasn't canceled, the idea was dropped.

 

[moopop]

That was never explained as to what was supposed to happen there, was it? I always got the impression that all vamps would become human.

But that's just one of many things that were supposed to happen. Angel was supposed to die a bunch of times, he was supposed to stay in hell, Xander was supposed to die and so on. Joss won't turn any vamps human until the end of the Buffyverse because he finds them boring.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Moopop
That was never explained as to what was supposed to happen there, was it?

Apparently, there was some token explanation, but after the show was renewed, Joss excised it off the script. But he didn't notice the "newly human" remark and it slipped through.

I'd give a lot to read the first draft of "Prophecy Girl" 🙂)))

Joss won't turn any vamps human until the end of the Buffyverse because he finds them boring.

Agree. But, frankly, I doubt that the end of the Buffyverse will happen in foreseeable future. And I doubt that Angel or Spike could permanently shanshue at this stage. Angel could turn human in the end of season 1, because back then BtVS was a funny show about teenagers. Happy ending was a given.

But now, with all the baggage of the past BtVS is an epic tragedy. I don't think we'll get a happy ending for any character.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I am really confused.. why all the talk about Prophecy Girl.. To Live and Die in LA wasnt even mentioned, as far as I know, until Season 4 of Buffy.. I don't know what Prophecy Girl has to do with it.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

I am really confused.. why all the talk about Prophecy Girl.. To Live and Die in LA wasnt even mentioned, as far as I know, until Season 4 of Buffy.. I don't know what Prophecy Girl has to do with it.

From the last scene of "Prophecy Girl" according to the script:

INT. LIBRARY - A COUPLE OF MINUTES LATER

Buffy enters slowly, Xander and a now-human Angel following. Everyone gathers in the middle of the room, a bit dazed.

That's what I meant.

 

[moopop]

I don't think we'll get a happy ending for any character.

We know Willow doesn't get one. She's Joss's favorite, so I agree it's highly unlikely anyone will. The closest will likely Xander and Dawn. On that note, I agree with the other poster that said it would hurt the overall story for it to be completely tragic, but barring a drastic change from Joss, that's what will happen.

 

[Zeppo]

I think Angel's window of opportunity to shanshue has closed in spring 1997, when The WB renewed BtVS for the second season. Angel shanshued in Prophecy Girl script, but as soon as it became clear that the show wasn't canceled, the idea was dropped.

The "now-human Angel" refers to him not being in vamp-mode anymore after fighting off vampires with Xander.

The first season was all shot and wrapped up before the first episode even started. It has nothing to do with Shanshu, most of Angel's backstory wasn't even developed at this point. Also the characters don't adress Angel being human, which is the only way the audience would know.

Where did you get your info that they wanted to Shanshu Angel in Prophecy Girl but "the idea was dropped?"

 

[Moscow Watcher]

The "now-human Angel" refers to him not being in vamp-mode anymore after fighting off vampires with Xander.

The first season was all shot and wrapped up before the first episode even started. It has nothing to do with Shanshu, most of Angel's backstory wasn't even developed at this point. Also the characters don't adress Angel being human, which is the only way the audience would know.

Where did you get your info that they wanted to Shanshu Angel in Prophecy Girl but "the idea was dropped?"

It's a guess based on the shooting script.

I don't think that "now-human" can be interpreted as "not vamp-faced". Human is human. As in "not a vampire".

Besides, there are different endings of "Prophecy Girl". Russian TV aired the version that ended with The Anointed One sitting in the cave and smiling. Later I watched online a version with Turkish subtitles that ended with the shot of The Master's skeleton.

Maybe there was a third ending?

Pity Joss doesn't do conventions. It would've been interesting to ask him that question.

 

[Zeppo]

It's a guess based on the shooting script.

I don't think that "now-human" can be interpreted as "not vamp-faced". Human is human. As in "not a vampire".

But when he turns into a vampire the line is used in reference to his face, it doesn't say "turns into a vampire:"

"He turns to her, his face now vampiric." (Quote from the script link'ed.)

Also, Willow says this after now-human Angel walks into the library:

"You can come with us, Angel. Get something to drink. Or, no... don't do that. Just hang out."

And no one says anything to contrast and clearly she believes he is still a vampire. If he became human in the episode there would've been a scene, a short moment, something to show it happened, he wouldn't just walk into frame suddenly a real boy. The script's narative is the only thing that mentions this, it's not said or aluded to in any way, so I don't know how you think it would've came across on screen which is why I can't buy this.

Sorry, interpret how you will, of course. I just think this is a radical interpretation of the text and was concerned with the way you freely stated that it was a plot point that was dropped because it came across as a fact.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I think Angel should get his shanshu only because I feel that Spike will be okay with or without his soul. Angel on the other hand seems to ...well he's not as stable as Spike when he doesn't have a soul.

For me, I'm not a fan of either of them, but it's not about who wins Buffy's love it's about stability. I think Spike just has way more stability and Angel doesn't.

 

[VisionGirl]

The script that MoscowWatcher posted- is that an actual shooting script, or a transcript? Either way, I agree with Zeppo about the interpretation. I highly doubt the idea of Shanshu was even conceived at that point. When Angel was first introduced, Joss wasn't even sure he was going to be a vampire. The idea of a spin-off didn't occur until late in season 2.

 

[moopop]

Earlier in the script, Collin asks him (referring to humans) "Why would you want to be one?" so the prospect had to already be there.

 

[Zeppo]

Earlier in the script, Collin asks him (referring to humans) "Why would you want to be one?" so the prospect had to already be there.

The prefix to that line that you didn't quote, though, is: "People are weak. They're stupid. Why would you want to be one?" His question pertains back to his statements. It's a generalized question with no emphasis on the word "you" script-ually, which if there was some "prospect" (of Shanshu) in the writing there should be italics on the word "you" to get the point across for on-screen.

Saying that it's relating to a prospect of Shanshu is placing a subjective tone on the line that's just not there. Again, take it as you will and as fun as it is to think about there is just nothing here that can prove Shanshu was planted in Prophecy Girl.

 

[moopop]

The prefix to that line that you didn't quote, though, is: "People are weak. They're stupid. Why would you want to be one?" His question pertains back to his statements. It's a generalized question with no emphasis on the word "you" script-ually, which if there was some "prospect" (of Shanshu) in the writing there should be italics on the word "you" to get the point across for on-screen.

Saying that it's relating to a prospect of Shanshu is placing a subjective tone on the line that's just not there. Again, take it as you will and as fun as it is to think about there is just nothing here that can prove Shanshu was planted in Prophecy Girl.

Yes, his question goes back to his statements as they provide the context that being human sucks. So why would Angel want to be one? That's not providing subjectivity, it's what the text says. He doesn't ask why Angel would act like one, he asks why he wants to be one.

I'm not saying it has anything to do with the Shanshu, just that the possibility that the storyline was already in Joss's head, not Shanshu, per se, but Angel turning human. Angel was supposed to die more than once. He wasn't originally supposed to come back from Hell (which sort of precludes turning human again).

It doesn't matter anyway because he didn't turn human, obviously, so it's moot in the end anyway.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yes, his question goes back to his statements as they provide the context that being human sucks. So why would Angel want to be one? That's not providing subjectivity, it's what the text says. He doesn't ask why Angel would act like one, he asks why he wants to be one.

Things should not be always taken literal. Those conversations happen everyday in the real world. For example:

BRUNETTE GIRL A: I am so jealous of her, with her blonde hair she gets all the boys attention.

BRUNETTE GIRL B: Yeah, but there is also the whole 'dumb blonde' stigma that goes with it. Me, I don't know why you would want to be one.

That doesn't mean that brunette girl A will suddenly and miraculously turn blonde (without the help of mrs. clairol) it is simply a figure and manner of speech. Nothing more should be inferred.

 

[moopop]

Things should not be always taken literal. Those conversations happen everyday in the real world. For example:

BRUNETTE GIRL A: I am so jealous of her, with her blonde hair she gets all the boys attention.

BRUNETTE GIRL B: Yeah, but there is also the whole 'dumb blonde' stigma that goes with it. Me, I don't know why you would want to be one.

That doesn't mean that brunette girl A will suddenly and miraculously turn blonde (without the help of mrs. clairol) it is simply a figure and manner of speech. Nothing more should be inferred.

Why, thank you for the lesson in conversation deconstruction. Those contexts are exactly the same as the one in the script. I don't know how I never saw it before.

 

[VisionGirl]

The point is that Angel was trying to be more human-like than his vampire peers. He was the only vampire with a soul so he was indeed more like humans. He wanted to be around them, help them, he was even in love with one. But this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Shanshu. I find it high unlikely that Joss conceived of it this eay on: we don't hear it being mentioned again for another 3 years

 

[LadyLavinia]

The point is that Angel was trying to be more human-like than his vampire peers. He was the only vampire with a soul so he was indeed more like humans. He wanted to be around them, help them, he was even in love with one.

The problem I have with this is that to me, humans and vampires are not that different in nature. I suppose this is due to my low opinion of humanity.

I think Angel should get his shanshu only because I feel that Spike will be okay with or without his soul. Angel on the other hand seems to ...well he's not as stable as Spike when he doesn't have a soul.

Why? If Angel is incapable of developing as a character without the curse forced upon him, why bother "rewarding" him with the Shanshu?

 

[Zeppo]

Why? If Angel is incapable of developing as a character without the curse forced upon him, why bother "rewarding" him with the Shanshu?

Spike was incapable of developing as a character, too, until a chip was forced upon him. Both parties had things thrust upon them that helped them to get to where they are. It's not just a reward one would just be rewarded with, it's a reward that's worked towards.

 

[kndizzle]

Spike was incapable of developing as a character, too, until a chip was forced upon him. Both parties had things thrust upon them that helped them to get to where they are. It's not just a reward one would just be rewarded with, it's a reward that's worked towards.

Very very well said. Its pretty even IMO. To me, the initiation of Spike into the running of the shanshu was a last ditch effort at throwing the audience off, to add more intrigue. If Angel wasn't the recipient then ATS was a total waste of time. Will we ever see anything come of it? Maybe on Joss' deathbed when he's decided he's had enough fun.