What Changed?

[Kean]

We've had countless discussions about the 180 that the Willow and (especially) Tara had in regards resurrection between S5 and S6.

I am watching Forever on SciFi at the moment and I can't but notice the 180 Spike does on resurrection too. In this episode he goes out of his way to help Dawn but he is staunchly against it in Bargaining.

So, what happened?

 

[sisterofmercy]

Well, it was Buffy. Like he said, if there was a chance that Buffy could have come back wrong, he would have found it difficult to let the Scoobies kill her. Although Spike respected Joyce, his feelings for her weren't as strong and there was Buffy to sort it out if things got out of hand.

That's what I think anyway, I'm probably wrong.

 

[Kean]

I'm no fan of Spike but I thought he respected Joyce more than that.

 

[thunderhawk86]

Maybe I understood wrong, but I thought Spike's big deal about Buffy was that if she came back wrong he wouldn't let the Scoobies take her away. They would have had to kill her and he wouldn't let them. Which is why they left Spike out of the loop. Spike would have been all for it no matter how Buffy came back.

 

[Icarium]

The writers probably forgot what they had written earlier and gave Spike his nonsensical speech about magic and consequences. I always chuckle when I think of him claiming he wouldn't have allowed Willow et al. to destroy Zombie!Buffy if it came down to that. How exactly was he going to do that, ask them nicely? 🙂

 

[Carrrrgh]

I don't remember him being against the resurrection of Buffy, I just thought he was more upset about the fact that the scoobies didn't include him in their plans. I thought he was feeling betrayed by them after working alongside them all that time she had been dead, he felt like he was one of them and he was taking good care of Dawn in her absence and then when this happened, and no one decided to clue Spike in, he was upset about it. But I don't think he was against bringing Buffy back, he just knew in his little heart that if there was something wrong with the resurrected Buffy, he would never let them get rid of her.

I also thought maybe the reason Spike was so hellbent on helping Dawn was to prove to Buffy that he can help people, even though he was doing it the wrong way.

 

[The Unspoken]

Well, first off, they think Buffy is in a hell dimension. This isn't really touched upon, but Buffy did literally jump into a portal leading to a hell dimension... Resurrection is hinted at being something forbidden and something that goes against 'the natural order of things', but Buffy being stuck in said hell dimension might warrant an exception to that rule.

Some of Tara's dialogue makes it seem like she didn't count on the spell working in the first place.

EDIT: Oh woops, this is about Spike, lol.

Anyway, they both lost their mother. And maybe he's helping out Dawn for Buffy's sake.

 

[Carrrrgh]

Edit: I'm also watching Smashed right now on LoGo and Spike is just so emotional about Buffy it's crazy. When he finds out he can hurt her, he's like the angriest vampire ever and wants to kill her, then on the other hand when she kisses him later he's like the happiest vampire ever and would never dream of hurting Buffy. I think maybe it's safe to say he is just an emotional wreck when it comes to things surrounding Buffy.

 

[Kean]

Maybe I understood wrong, but I thought Spike's big deal about Buffy was that if she came back wrong he wouldn't let the Scoobies take her away. They would have had to kill her and he wouldn't let them. Which is why they left Spike out of the loop. Spike would have been all for it no matter how Buffy came back.

I dunno, that doesn't quite cover it though. If he had really wanted her back and really didn't care what she was when she came back he would have done it himself, just as Dawn did with Joyce.

He tells Dawn that the reason he is helping her is because he can't stand to see Summer's women so upset, yet Dawn must have been distraught at Buffy's death and he was with her all summer long.

I know it is just poor writing but there isn't even a real way to fanwank this one.

 

[Lyri]

You can fanwank it and say that the reason he was helping Dawn resurrect Joyce was because he didn't want to see BUFFY so upset, and losing her mother, that's the lowest place she's ever been and he wanted to get her out of it. She had no one to turn to, she was all alone, and Spike wanted to give her her mother back.

When Buffy died, Dawn had Willow, Tara, Xander, Anya, Spike and Giles to turn to, and while it must have been a terrible time for her, it must have helped that they were there. As far as the Scoobies knew, Buffy kept everything bottled up and kept it to herself. They didn't know that Angel was there to help her through it, Spike might have just assumed that she didn't feel like she had anyone left, so he thought the best way was to give her back her mother.

I also think that another part of it was that, no matter how Joyce came back, she was Buffy's mother, and he didn't think she would actually want to kill her, so that part of it never entered his head. With the Scoobs, Spike was aware of the risks of Buffy coming back wrong, and he knew that the Scoobs are much more black and white about something like that. If Buffy came back wrong, they would do whatever was needed to send her away again, and he wasn't going to let them do that.

 

[Kean]

You can fanwank it and say that the reason he was helping Dawn resurrect Joyce was because he didn't want to see BUFFY so upset, and losing her mother, that's the lowest place she's ever been and he wanted to get her out of it. She had no one to turn to, she was all alone, and Spike wanted to give her her mother back.

When Buffy died, Dawn had Willow, Tara, Xander, Anya, Spike and Giles to turn to, and while it must have been a terrible time for her, it must have helped that they were there. As far as the Scoobies knew, Buffy kept everything bottled up and kept it to herself. They didn't know that Angel was there to help her through it, Spike might have just assumed that she didn't feel like she had anyone left, so he thought the best way was to give her back her mother.

I also think that another part of it was that, no matter how Joyce came back, she was Buffy's mother, and he didn't think she would actually want to kill her, so that part of it never entered his head. With the Scoobs, Spike was aware of the risks of Buffy coming back wrong, and he knew that the Scoobs are much more black and white about something like that. If Buffy came back wrong, they would do whatever was needed to send her away again, and he wasn't going to let them do that.

But he knew Buffy would be against her mother's resurrection. He explicitly tells Dawn that Buffy is never to know that he helped her.

I know what your getting at, but I think you'd really want to see it for it to fit.

 

[Lyri]

Yes, she might have been against the idea of it, but look at how she was at the end of 'Forever', the excitement she felt at the possibility of seeing her mother again. We don't know if she would have wanted to send her away, even if she did come back as Zombie!Joyce. It was Dawn who ended the spell.

 

[Kean]

Yes, she might have been against the idea of it, but look at how she was at the end of 'Forever', the excitement she felt at the possibility of seeing her mother again. We don't know if she would have wanted to send her away, even if she did come back as Zombie!Joyce. It was Dawn who ended the spell.

I know...it just doesn't fit for me somehow. I can see him applying that logic. I suppose I just don't like it.

 

[Lyri]

Babe, you don't like Spike!

 

[Kean]

Babe, you don't like Spike!

Touché.

But really, my feelings towards him don't really effect this issue. I mean, I totally agree with his reaction in Bargaining.

I suppose it does all come down to Buffy for him. I kinda peeved that he thought Buffy deserved eternal rest but Joyce (apparently) didn't.

 

[Lyri]

Touché.

But really, my feelings towards him don't really effect this issue. I mean, I totally agree with his reaction in Bargaining.

I suppose it does all come down to Buffy for him. I kinda peeved that he thought Buffy deserved eternal rest but Joyce (apparently) didn't.

I guess I can understand that, but I don't think it had much to do with him wanting Buffy to have eternal rest, for all we know, he thought Buffy was in a hell dimension just like the rest of them did. I think it had more to do with the fact, like he said, that he knew that if Buffy came back wrong that the Scoobs would get rid of her, and he wouldn't let them do that. I know I'm gonna get a kick in the teeth from the Spuffies for this, but I do think it was more selfishness on Spike's part than selflessness.

 

[StarSlayer]

I suppose it does all come down to Buffy for him. I kinda peeved that he thought Buffy deserved eternal rest but Joyce (apparently) didn't.

I don't know if Spike really thought Buffy deserved eternal rest though. He counted the days that she wasn't here. Every night he saved her. Like it was said earlier, I think he was more upset that the Scoobies didn't include him in their plans, especially when he worked beside them all summer.

 

[thunderhawk86]

Let's not forget Spike, for whatever reason, is fantastic at reading people for the most part. He saw right through Angel and Buffy's relationship in S3 as just one example. Maybe he knew Dawn wouldn't go through with it in the end. At the very least he knew Dawn would go off on her own to try raise her mom. She went to the cemetary by herself the vampire hot spot.

Minimally he was protecting Dawn, giving Spike the most credit is that he felt that Dawn wouldn't go through with it at the end (which she didn't).

 

[Washburne]

Minimally he was protecting Dawn, giving Spike the most credit is that he felt that Dawn wouldn't go through with it at the end (which she didn't).

I only buy the protecting bit partially at best. Ignoring the whole resurrection bit "just" to save her from going to a vampire hot spot.There must have been better ways to protect her. But sure, lets say I agree. You remember why Dawn didn't go through with it? Do I? Because if I do not only could Spike read Dawn, he could also see how others would affect her. In time none the less. If that's true major kudos to him. But maybe I remember wrong. It was a long time since I watched this.

 

[EvilBuffy]

My thought is that in Forever, he knew Dawn was going to do it with or without him so he tragged along to protect her. I firmly believe he didn't want her to do it, but considering she was going to anyways he helped her do the spell at least partly right. I also think that he knew she wouldn't go through with it. Spike knows Dawn isn't a stupid girl and at the end, she'd realize she couldn't go through with it.

About Bargaining though, I think most of his reaction was out of anger because he had no idea they were doing the spell even though he fought by their sides for months. I might be repeating things said on the show or just randomly making assumptions, but this is how I took it.