What did you think when Willow turned gay? - part 2

[Chosen Enemy]

The original thread was closed just when I wanted to post my answer, so here's a new one.

To answer the question...

I really like gay people. God bless them. But in Willow's case, I thought it was a little forced. Because as I said in another thread, she was so not gay, she dated and had crushes on guys and relationships with guys (Demon robot, Xander, Oz). I just didn't buy it. Although it can be that she was gay all along and just didn't know it. However, her feelings towards some guys were really strong that it didn't make sense she's gay after all that. Then she 'suddenly' becomes gay....? I just don't think people just 'turn' gay. You either born this way or not.
So then I started thinking that she's probably bi. That's the only option that makes sense here. If not, it's just all so forced and misplaced

 

[zobothehobo]

The original thread was closed just when I wanted to post my answer, so here's a new one.

To answer the question...

I really like gay people. God bless them. But in Willow's case, I thought it was a little forced. Because as I said in another thread, she was so not gay, she dated and had crushes on guys and relationships with guys (Demon robot, Xander, Oz). I just didn't buy it. Although it can be that she was gay all along and just didn't know it. However, her feelings towards some guys were really strong that it didn't make sense she's gay after all that. Then she 'suddenly' becomes gay....? I just don't think people just 'turn' gay. You either born this way or not.
So then I started thinking that she's probably bi. That's the only option that makes sense here. If not, it's just all so forced and misplaced

It doesn't really work like you come out of the womb knowing you are gay. Society tells you to like opposite sex people, so you do. As I explained in the previous thread, there different kinds of love too. You can fall romantically in love with someone without falling sexually in love with them (like Willow did with Oz).

Saying "This person has been with members of the opposite sex" to "prove" they aren't gay doesn't work. Does it prove my dad isn't gay because he married my mom and had three children? Does it prove I'm not gay because I had crushes on guys?

Willow didn't "turn" gay and it wasn't "sudden." Remember vampire Willow? Willow was and will always be gay. That doesn't mean she didn't love Oz and it doesn't me she couldn't have loved Oz. It doesn't mean anything that she had a crush on Xander.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It doesn't really work like you come out of the womb knowing you are gay. Society tells you to like opposite sex people, so you do. As I explained in the previous thread, there different kinds of love too. You can fall romantically in love with someone without falling sexually in love with them (like Willow did with Oz).

Saying "This person has been with members of the opposite sex" to "prove" they aren't gay doesn't work. Does it prove my dad isn't gay because he married my mom and had three children? Does it prove I'm not gay because I had crushes on guys?

Willow didn't "turn" gay and it wasn't "sudden." Remember vampire Willow? Willow was and will always be gay. That doesn't mean she didn't love Oz and it doesn't me she couldn't have loved Oz. It doesn't mean anything that she had a crush on Xander.

If it was shown on another level I'd say it's completely true. But that's why I said that her feelings toward Oz for example, were very strong. She was clearly in love with him completely, he was her first, and I think she was atracted to him sexually. She was interested, she felt it inside. For me, inside, what your heart feels, is the truth. The way she acted with Oz, their relationship was obviously also sexually, not only romantically. They were 'real' girlfriend and boyfriend, at all aspects. The feelings there were too strong for it to not be 'real' both sexually wise and romantically wise.

And with Xander, in season 3 when they hid their emotions from Oz and Cordelia, there was huge sexual tension there. They both were so atracted to each other. Otherwise they wouldn't have the whole cheating thing. They couldn't control themselves, even though they had girlfriend/boyfriend.

I know sometimes you don't "just know you're gay", but considering all the past Willow had, with both Xander and Oz, I can clearly say she didn't completely seem gay in denial to me. If they did it differently, it would have been more realistic. Like Willow checking out a girl, even without noticing she's doing it, or not being so atracted to Xander by season 3, anything, even the smallest thing... that would have make it more believable to me. It seemed too sudden without "proves" as you said. I don't know, I just didn't buy it. Considering the past she had, not only with guys, but also with herself. It looks like she met Tara and then fell in love and realized she might be gay. It didn't settle correctly IMO. I do know people realize sometime in their lives that they're gay. but in this specific story, I don't think it was handled very well. They could have done it better, because right now it seems to me like a hole in the plot, between season 1 and season 4 or even 3 (with vamp Willow, when Joss wanted to suddenly make either Xander or Willow gay. So I'd say the same with Xander, if he were the one Joss picked to become gay). As a writer, you can't just decide to turn someone into something else when the past doesn't allow that muchly. So yeah, it looks to me like a little hole in the plot.

 

[zobothehobo]

If it was shown on another level I'd say it's completely true. But that's why I said that her feelings toward Oz for example, were very strong. She was clearly in love with him completely, he was her first, and I think she was atracted to him sexually. She was interested, she felt it inside. For me, inside, what your heart feels, is the truth. The way she acted with Oz, their relationship was obviously also sexually, not only romantically. They were 'real' girlfriend and boyfriend, at all aspects. The feelings there were too strong for it to not be 'real' both sexually wise and romantically wise.

Well I personally did not feel the sexual attraction/component to their relationship.

And with Xander, in season 3 when they hid their emotions from Oz and Cordelia, there was huge sexual tension there. They both were so atracted to each other. Otherwise they wouldn't have the whole cheating thing. They couldn't control themselves, even though they had girlfriend/boyfriend.

Again, I think it was so much of the "we've been friends for so long and this can't just be friendship." I'll expand more on this when I have more time

I know sometimes you don't "just know you're gay", but considering all the past Willow had, with both Xander and Oz, I can clearly say she didn't completely seem gay in denial to me. If they did it differently, it would have been more realistic. Like Willow checking out a girl, even without noticing she's doing it, or not being so atracted to Xander by season 3, anything, even the smallest thing... that would have make it more believable to me. It seemed too sudden without "proves" as you said. I don't know, I just didn't buy it. Considering the past she had, not only with guys, but also with herself. It looks like she met Tara and then fell in love and realized she might be gay. It didn't settle correctly IMO. I do know people realize sometime in their lives that they're gay. but in this specific story, I don't think it was handled very well. They could have done it better, because right now it seems to me like a hole in the plot, between season 1 and season 4 or even 3 (with vamp Willow, when Joss wanted to suddenly make either Xander or Willow gay. So I'd say the same with Xander, if he were the one Joss picked to become gay). As a writer, you can't just decide to turn someone into something else when the past doesn't allow that muchly. So yeah, it looks to me like a little hole in the plot.

It's not about being in denial. It's about having no idea. She found herself in Tara and figured out who she was. She didn't just come out of the closet, she realized she was in it. It's a completely different animal than being in denial. I'll expand more on this too when I have time.

 

[brinkster130]

The original thread was closed just when I wanted to post my answer, so here's a new one.

To answer the question...

I really like gay people. God bless them. But in Willow's case, I thought it was a little forced. Because as I said in another thread, she was so not gay, she dated and had crushes on guys and relationships with guys (Demon robot, Xander, Oz). I just didn't buy it. Although it can be that she was gay all along and just didn't know it. However, her feelings towards some guys were really strong that it didn't make sense she's gay after all that. Then she 'suddenly' becomes gay....? I just don't think people just 'turn' gay. You either born this way or not.
So then I started thinking that she's probably bi. That's the only option that makes sense here. If not, it's just all so forced and misplaced

I didn't think they forced it so much. I mean Willow and Tara meant and became friends and the more time they spent together the more you noticed that they had a connection. The eye contact, making each other nervous, always wanting to be around each other etc. This connection seemed to confuse Willow at times but she couldn't help/deny her feelings. I didn't think she suddenly became gay; I just think Tara was the first girl she meant that she developed romantic feelings for.

Of course Willow loved Oz, he was her first significant relationship but I always thought that Willow had a much stronger romantic pull to Tara. IMO Willow was instantly drawn to Tara (even if it was new to her and confused her) but her attraction to Oz grew over time.

 

[msfantastico87]

She was most definitely gay from the getco. I already commented on this topic, but to kind of reply Chosen Enemy, I can see why you think it was forced upon her. It totally wasn't though. Willow is the perfect example of a gay person in the closet, until she meets the one person that makes her feel comfortable with her sexuality. Just because we see her have these crushes on men, does not mean she wasn't gay from the beginning. Xander was her best friend. She felt comfortable with him and he was the only guy she could trust. Understandable. Most closeted lesbians feel the same way. Same goes for the robot. The robot showed her affection and made her feel special, so she was drawn to that. Oz was only person that is kind of the exception to that rule. But like most relationships, this was Willow's first and of course she thought she loved him and all of that. I do believe He loved her with all of his might, but Did Willow love him, yes, but not in the same way she loved Tara. Once she met Tara, everything she bottled up inside came out, and she was able to be herself, not only around Tara, but also around her friends. I see the moment of Willow meeting Tara as Willow's wake up call to come out of the closet...

plus...I still firmly believe that when Buffy moved to Sunnydale, Willow had a crush on Buffy. That's the first sign that you get about Willow's sexuality.

 

[NY State of Mind]

She was most definitely gay from the getco. I already commented on this topic, but to kind of reply Chosen Enemy, I can see why you think it was forced upon her. It totally wasn't though. Willow is the perfect example of a gay person in the closet, until she meets the one person that makes her feel comfortable with her sexuality. Just because we see her have these crushes on men, does not mean she wasn't gay from the beginning. Xander was her best friend. She felt comfortable with him and he was the only guy she could trust. Understandable. Most closeted lesbians feel the same way. Same goes for the robot. The robot showed her affection and made her feel special, so she was drawn to that. Oz was only person that is kind of the exception to that rule. But like most relationships, this was Willow's first and of course she thought she loved him and all of that. I do believe He loved her with all of his might, but Did Willow love him, yes, but not in the same way she loved Tara. Once she met Tara, everything she bottled up inside came out, and she was able to be herself, not only around Tara, but also around her friends. I see the moment of Willow meeting Tara as Willow's wake up call to come out of the closet...

plus...I still firmly believe that when Buffy moved to Sunnydale, Willow had a crush on Buffy. That's the first sign that you get about Willow's sexuality.

Elaborate more on how you saw the crush on Buffy in the beginning? and I agree with everything your saying except for the logical fact that Willow is fictional character and the writers didn't know they were gonna turn her gay from day 1 so how was she always gay from the getgo?

 

[Thursday]

I don't think the issue of Willow's sexuality was introduced or handled as well as it could have been, but afterwards I had no problem believing it.

It had already been foreshadowed with Vamp Willow and I've always thought, like msfantasico, that early season Willow kind of had a crush on Buffy (glad I'm not the only one!). And, Willow and Tara liked each other, doesn't matter that Willow never dated a girl before. Unlike many, I don't consider Willow a bisexual. She says she's gay, so she's gay.

 

[FetalPig]

Well I personally did not feel the sexual attraction/component to their relationship.

In Wild At Heart I think it's pretty clear that Oz and Willow are having a sexual relationship. Perhaps not as outwardly demonstrative as some, but Willow is still in transition from a pretty innocent High-schooler who hadn't even dated before Oz ( i don't count the vamp she picked up at the Bronze that night).

When Willow says she is a gay woman i take that as a statement of what she believes at the time, who's to say that in a couple of years she won't meet a man she falls in love with? She loved Oz and she loved Tara, she's been through a lot of pain and come a long way, but i didn't get the impression that she's through all of it. So she sees herself as a gay woman in the later series' and she's happy there but i'm not going to hold her to that. All her Season 1-7 relationships were with people who wanted her, and she's really loyal so i still wonder what Willow wants.

As for the thread title it was introduced beautifully so i didn't really think about it at all. I knew before she knew, and even before i knew really, so it was just more Willow loveliness.

 

[zobothehobo]

In Wild At Heart I think it's pretty clear that Oz and Willow are having a sexual relationship. Perhaps not as outwardly demonstrative as some, but Willow is still in transition from a pretty innocent High-schooler who hadn't even dated before Oz ( i don't count the vamp she picked up at the Bronze that night).

Maybe I should go back and watch Wild At Heart again, but I seemed to feel the sexual component ONLY between Oz and Veruca.

When Willow says she is a gay woman i take that as a statement of what she believes at the time, who's to say that in a couple of years she won't meet a man she falls in love with? She loved Oz and she loved Tara, she's been through a lot of pain and come a long way, but i didn't get the impression that she's through all of it. So she sees herself as a gay woman in the later series' and she's happy there but i'm not going to hold her to that. All her Season 1-7 relationships were with people who wanted her, and she's really loyal so i still wonder what Willow wants.

that argument could be placed to most gay people and it's an argument that's used quite often against us (at least where I live). The argument that we're not actually sure and that one day we might fall in love with a member of the opposite sex be be like "Oh, I was wrong." Sexuality is not a black and white thing. And as a gay woman, I could very well fall in love with a man. Love knows no bounds and that's something I believe to my core. When it comes to sexuality labels, you really just have to trust the person you're talking about. You kind of feel it. When you say it, you feel it sounds right. I get the feeling when Willow said she was a gay woman, it felt right to her. Therefore, I trust it. While I agree, later on down the road, she could very well fall in love with a man, as anything can happen, right now, we have to believe her. She's very comfortable and confident with the label SHE has placed on herself. Who are we to suggest she's wrong?

 

[FetalPig]

Right and wrong are just another black and white in this. I get that she believes it with confidence and comfort, but it is, as you say, a label. All i'm saying is that i wouldn't be surprised to see Willow get the hots for a male character. She would be surprised though 😉

 

[Chosen Enemy]

My point is, they decided to make Willow gay just like that, without considering the past. And no, I don't think Willow had a crush on Buffy since the first season, nor the writers and Joss wanted to write Willow as gay. And it shows. If they were doing it from the beginning, it would have looked much better.

Another point of mine is, Willow did have sexual relationship with Oz, there were strong feelings there, she was in love with him, she did feel love and sexual feelings for him (they were sexually active by season 4, it was a whole regular relationship (besides the werewolf thing), just like with Tara. I don't think her feelings for Oz were less than her feelings for Tara. And that's what I mean. Willow did have men loving feelings, so that was what I didn't find believeable. I do realize that people in closet have past relationships with the opposite sex. But in this case, it's clear that Willow had woman feelings for men. Now, if they hadn't decided this in season 3 (as I think they had) just like that without counting Willow's feelings and actions in the past, now that would have looked better. That's why my realization that Willow is actually bi, settles better for me. It's like they ignored everything that Willow felt and did ( because there was also action, not only feelings that been told in words), and just decided to turn Willow gay. It wasn't planned from the beginning, so it didn't settle well IMO.

 

[NY State of Mind]

another question is...Why did she fall under the spell in "Him"...and why was she so in love with Xander when he had his spell in BBB (more than everyone else)...I understand she could love the person he is, but there has to be some type of sexual spark especially how they acted when they were cheating in Season 3.

I understand the writers didn't know they were going to make her gay from the beginning...If she was a real person, I would say she's Bi and determined she's just Gay because her relationship with Tara was her strongest. But whatever, if she says she's Gay then that's what we have to believe cause it's not like she's a real person.

 

[Username]

another question is...Why did she fall under the spell in "Him".

Well she did also try to make him into a girl 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

another question is...Why did she fall under the spell in "Him"...and why was she so in love with Xander when he had his spell in BBB (more than everyone else)...

Those spells were supposed to affect all females. Willow was a female. Being gay wouldn't make her a guy.

 

[ashsummers]

I really like gay people. God bless them. But in Willow's case, I thought it was a little forced. Because as I said in another thread, she was so not gay, she dated and had crushes on guys and relationships with guys (Demon robot, Xander, Oz). I just didn't buy it. Although it can be that she was gay all along and just didn't know it. However, her feelings towards some guys were really strong that it didn't make sense she's gay after all that. Then she 'suddenly' becomes gay....? I just don't think people just 'turn' gay. You either born this way or not.
So then I started thinking that she's probably bi. That's the only option that makes sense here. If not, it's just all so forced and misplaced

Yeah I totally agree with you. It felt entirely forced to me. It definitely seems Willow was Bi for sure so i never got why everyone kept calling her Gay.

And for those of you quick to argue that she was finding herself in the early days and that her relationship with Oz did not have the same depth think back to Graduation part 1.

Oz and Willow first sleep together.The world is ending they're about to fight the whole Ascension hoopla and Angel is dying and Willow feels so guilty because it is "the happiest night of her life".

I can't imagine it would be the happiest night of her life if she was indeed gay. Sleeping with someone of the opposite sex for the first time when you're gay feels far from perfect. It throws up all sorts of questions of personal identity and creates so much internal conflict even if it is enjoyable.

With Tara I just think Willow fell for her as a person, I don't think her gender even came into tbh. And there are many women who it is the same for. Sexual orientation it has long been observed is a far more fluid concept for women than for men and i know of several women who are straight but have had relationships with women indeed left husbands for women and they do not identify as specifically gay.

Alot of times you fall in love with a person not a gender. Our concepts of gender needn't be so rigid. For Willow perhaps it was the same but it seemed terribly inconsistent they kept calling her gay and not bisexual at the very least.

 

[Justme]

I always accept Willow as gay. I read that Joss "turned" her because of the chemistry between her and Amber Benson, well I think this works. Their relationship seems so natural and although her and Oz's relationship was super sweet compared to Tara it seems wooden.

Even though she wasn't written this way I think Willow was gay from the get go, I personally am with Alfred Kinsey on this, I think we are all on a "gay scale". Willow is 9/10 Lady lovin'.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I (respectfully) disagree with the examples all sides are using. The pro-bisexual Willow side uses Xander/Oz/All other Males to say "Willow is bisexual!" when in reality, lesbians sometimes do have prior relationships with men that are meaningful and loving and also have great sex with men. Lesbians can also note the attractiveness of a male just as straight women comment on other female attractiveness. Sometimes even straight females have crushes on other women and I'd assume a lesbian could have a crush on a male but know it's going no where romantically/sexually.

The pro-lesbian Willow side uses VampWillow (who is not Willow in the slightest. Also, if you use this example then I believe you're saying Willow is bisexual not lesbian. You can't just write off VampWillow's bisexuality and only use the sapphic side to hold up your argument) and Willow's "GAY NOW" comments. The latter is where the pro-lesbian Willow side has a foothold because how a person identifies sexually is what we have to take at face value and accept.

However, this is a fictional character so I like the debate. I hope no one takes these arguments personally because as a fictional character I think its great we see so many other attributes that bring strength to the arguments on the table.

For me personally, I believe there is evidence to the pro-bisexual Willow side that is just as strong as the "GAY NOW" argument that can be used for the pro-lesbian Willow side. Willow's "GAY NOW" comments always seemed to come up when her sexuality could threaten a female character. As with Anya who (if I remember Season 5 correctly) was worried Willow had something for Xander still. Willow goes "GAY NOW"*.

Tara's argument with her especially, if Willow up until that point kept going "Gay now" why would Tara need Willow to re-confirm that? She's still worried that Willow will run back to Boy's Town when Willow has done everything else to confirm that she wouldn't. To me that says something was occurring off screen to give Tara that suspicion. We don't know much about how Willow came to being "Gay Now" because so much was left off of our television so to some of us it feels forced. For me, it feel like Willow says "Gay Now" to ease Tara's fears.

When Kennedy and Willow first go on a date, Willow says "Not women. ONE woman." To me that says that Tara was the exception to the rule and re-confirms my suspicions that Willow's "Gay Now" statements were for Tara's benefit.

The rumor that Willow was supposed to couple up with a male character (Oz would have made so much sense in this case) but they decided not to, to ward off the rage of Lesbian-Willow fans, also helps support my idea that Willow was supposed to be bisexual. I don't think at that point in time with television for young adults, a bisexual in a lesbian relationship wouldn't be enough for fans who wanted a lesbian relationship. I think the same thing is happening with the show Grey's Anatomy. But that's for something else.

I think this post is getting long and I need to work on a paper. I'll try to clarify when I get the time or if anyone cares.

*(Which, the "gay now" comments can be construed as how many (not all) gay youth go "I'M GAY. Don't like it? TOO BAD!" in your face without much causation. It could be her becoming comfortable with this new found aspect of herself)

 

[mayfever]

I agree with all of you who said that the whole thing was somewhat clumsily done by the writers. I especially agree with ashsummers' quote

I can't imagine it would be the happiest night of her life if she was indeed gay. Sleeping with someone of the opposite sex for the first time when you're gay feels far from perfect. It throws up all sorts of questions of personal identity and creates so much internal conflict even if it is enjoyable.

I read somewhere that Joss had decided to turn one of the recurring characters gay, but he hadn't definitely settled on Willow yet, it might as well have hit Xander. So yes, I do think the whole thing feels rather forced and except Vamp Will there is nothing in the earlier seasons that suggests this particular development. She did love Oz and they did have a sexual relationship, and her crush on Xander (and the shenanigans they got up to later) weren't platonic either. I also didn't notice Sexual Attraction trying to see if Willow and Buffy were coming out to play, and seriously, if you're really honest: If you liked women, who would you have a crush on, SMG or AB? (I freely admit that I wouldn't kick SMG out of my bed for eating crisps). (There's a little Fuffy inside of me.)

Personally, I don't like Tillow at all because I can't for love nor money detect any chemistry between AH and AB, but I also know I'm quite alone with this, so I just thought I'd mention this because it may have influenced my view of the whole thing. I'm happy to go along with the theory of Willow falling in love with Tara's personaliy and gender just not entering the equation. Of course, the whole Kennedy thing (personally, I like to call it "disaster") would counteract that, but then again, I happily blame clumsy writing for everything I don't like about the show. Come visit me in denial land, we have biscuits!

More seriously though, I think we have to believe Willow when she says "I'm gay". Of course she's a fictional character and all that, but who else is supposed to know?

 

[HelloWhatNow]

Hello, what now?

hi, i'm new here! 😛 i see gay and straight perspectives here but not bi. is anyone is still into this conversation? i'm reading season 8 for the first time, and found it when googling "willow and oz gay or bisexual".

while it's true that as zobo said, willow claims her gay self and does so proudly, that's great, but to me, not the point. "the closet" symbolizes denial, real aspects of ourselves that we stuff away and hide. it's not just for us queers anymore; example: private pagans and wiccans hide in the "broom closet." willow the character does a great job of proclaiming her gay, but an equally great job of closeting what she was before, whatever that was, and how that leads to who she is, fictionally speaking. maybe it was gay in denial, maybe it was just non-realization, maybe it's undealt with bisexuality. but it's never addressed, leaving the dichotomy here being a very oversimplified one.

i always found, "hello, gay now," incredibly irritating. "hello, not that simple, writers" is more like it. speaking from personal experience, yes, there is social pressure from birth to be straight, but there is also constant social pressure to be one way or the other, either straight or gay. maybe more today than ever. if you are bi and coming out you really feel this, and sometimes it is truly less than subtle. zobo, i give you credit for seeming open-hearted because it's not always that way.

i say the writers were either bi-phobic or incredibly straight. there's an analogy with the treatment of sexuality to the treatment of the actual vampiric act on the show. seldom do the cameras linger more than a few seconds on a shot of blood-sucking, and especially early on in the show, cameras filmed the post-coital a lot more than the"¦ coital. commentary from the writers, for example in the paley fest reunion videos, always addresses queerness at joking distance, very similarly to the way they address the evil activities of vampires and demons. : poke: i know it's not easy for anyone to address, but speaking of closets"¦.

and yes, i do realize the irony in venting about closeted bisexuality in a fan forum on a show that isn't even on the air anymore. so have at me, but this conversation just called out to me!