What did you think when Willow turned gay? - part 2

[TimeParadox]

My point is under your definition of "gay," no one really fits there. Much how IMO, the socially accepted definition of "straight" doesn't fit anyone either. No one is 100% gay or 100% straight.

I agree that it is a spectrum. I'm in no way arguing that, but most people who identify as straight or gay are fairly close to the edges. That's not to say they are 100%, but it's safe to say that a gay woman will not fall sexually in love with a man. Maybe a little, but not with the magnitude and intensity that we have seen from Willow. I just think that calling Willow gay just denies that Xander and Oz were "real." Or it denies that there was any sexual component to them. Which I feel is there and it is strong. It puts Willow a little more in the middle of the spectrum for her to be considered gay.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

For me it was just a non-issue. It was like, "oh, OK." Shrug and acceptance.

I was never like, "WHAT THE...? A WOMAN?"

It seemed like a pretty natural progression for me.

 

[Connor Holtz]

First thing I'm going to say is "Him" clearly shows Willow's inability to be attracted to a man, even under a lover spell.

Secondly; I've never been attracted to a man. Not even a little. So, I'd have to say I'm 100% straight.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I think I've said this before on another thread, but to me, if Willow says she's gay, then she's gay. The right to self-identify is something I will defend forever. Personally, it's extremely important to me. Others might feel this way too, but the day I was able to put a name to how I felt was amazing to me. Even though Willow is a fictional character, she IS one of very few representations of LGBTQ people in popular culture, and I think she deserves that right as well.

While I agree it is too rigid for others to call someone gay or straight, (and I believe it's just plain wrong to identify someone else's orientation FOR them)Willow has her own voice within the show, and she says she's gay. Now, I would've loved to see an out bi/pan/queer person on the show, but there wasn't one, unfortunately.

I personally don't believe in a romantic love without sexual attraction. If there is no sexual attraction, no matter how much in love with someone you are, all it can ever be is a best friend relationship. Which is usually a wonderful and loving relationship. But it's pretty hard to form a romantic boyfriend/girlfriend relationship out of it, and it's hard to mistake that kind of love for romantic love.

I have to strongly disagree with this. Not every human being experiences sexual attraction. Asexuality exists, and asexual people can fall in love too. Of course Willow isn't asexual, but I think love and sex are two very different things and sexual attraction is not necessary for love.

 

[OhWow]

My reaction when Willow turned gay? 😱 Then after I got over the shock it was...YAYY WILLOWS GAY! 😀

 

[TimeParadox]

I have to strongly disagree with this. Not every human being experiences sexual attraction. Asexuality exists, and asexual people can fall in love too. Of course Willow isn't asexual, but I think love and sex are two very different things and sexual attraction is not necessary for love.

I think you can have love without attraction, but it's a different kind of love. It's not what I've seen from Willow over the seasons.

And obviously if Willow were a real person, if she said she was gay I'd have no right to question. But she isn't, so I am.

 

[prophecygrrl]

And obviously if Willow were a real person, if she said she was gay I'd have no right to question. But she isn't, so I am.

I don't see the difference though. People are using perceptions of past events and observations from her life to "prove" that she's not definitively gay, which is exactly what us real gay people face all the time. Where's the line between real and fictional when our approach to both situations is nearly the same?

Of course in this instance we do know that there's behind the scenes stuff going on, but ultimately it's what ends up on the screen that should be considered, not authorial intent. Willow says she's gay. I mean this with no hostility whatsoever and I really just can't think of another way to say this, but: why isn't that enough?

 

[Goby]

I mean this with no hostility whatsoever and I really just can't think of another way to say this, but: why isn't that enough?

Because Willow is such a sweetie and so beautiful that my heterosexual mind can not believe that she would reject me. Ok, I said it. I'm being honest.

The sad part is that I can this jokingly, but I bet for a lot of homosexuals this is a very frustrating statement, and one that causes great pain, just like prophecygrrl said. I'm sorry.

BTW, I am a member of a lawyer listserv. This article was published about the listserv. It's way off topic, but I thought I'd share the link. http://open.salon.com/blog/lawless_...ter_on_incivility_the_myth_of_the_likable_gay

 

[TimeParadox]

I don't see the difference though. People are using perceptions of past events and observations from her life to "prove" that she's not definitively gay, which is exactly what us real gay people face all the time. Where's the line between real and fictional when our approach to both situations is nearly the same?

Of course in this instance we do know that there's behind the scenes stuff going on, but ultimately it's what ends up on the screen that should be considered, not authorial intent. Willow says she's gay. I mean this with no hostility whatsoever and I really just can't think of another way to say this, but: why isn't that enough?

I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that what Willow had with Xander and Oz seemed just as real as Willow and Tara. And it was never explained how that happened.

You're point about Willow knowing best makes sense. She probably knows what's going on better than the viewers (if it were real)

As a television show, it doesn't seem believable to me.

Again I really don't want to offend. I grew up in a very liberal town, so I've never actually really seen any bigotry toward homosexuals and I had no idea that people in real life questioned people like that.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that what Willow had with Xander and Oz seemed just as real as Willow and Tara. And it was never explained how that happened.

You're point about Willow knowing best makes sense. She probably knows what's going on better than the viewers (if it were real)

As a television show, it doesn't seem believable to me.

Again I really don't want to offend. I grew up in a very liberal town, so I've never actually really seen any bigotry toward homosexuals and I had no idea that people in real life questioned people like that.

Oh it's okay, I'm not offended. 🙂 I guess I'm just sensitive to this topic? 😛 Because I agree completely that sexuality is not black or white, and I can't tell you how much I want to see a minority sexual identity represented too. In different circumstances and with enough time, I think having Willow show interest in multiple genders would be awesome. At the same time, I see only what ended up on the screen and based on my own experiences and the experiences of my peers, I think self-identity is too important to overlook.

Side note: I grew up and still live in a generally pretty liberal environment too, but you wouldn't believe how much intolerance there still is here (both within the LGBT community and outside it), and I'm in California, for goodness sake. 😉 There's so much suspicion of anyone who is interested in more than one gender. I don't know if it's because of the exploitative way bisexuality is portrayed in the media or what, but it's really annoying. Le sigh.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I've only read the last few posts here but I find the conversation really interesting.
When the writers insisted that she only refer to herself as "gay" in later seasons I felt like they took away the possibility that she could be sexually attracted to both men and women, and I wondered how other people (especially those who identify as bi) felt about that. Of course, as prophecygrrl pointed out, the most important thing is that the character is self-identifying and is not concerned with what anyone thinks. But as others have pointed out in this thread the writers are totally dichotomous about sexuality and I think that is the biggest problem. I think this would have been a good opportunity to show the perhaps less informed public that it is possible to be bisexual. I dunno...

 

[Icarium]

. But as others have pointed out in this thread the writers are totally dichotomous about sexuality and I think that is the biggest problem. I think this would have been a good opportunity to show the perhaps less informed public that it is possible to be bisexual

I read on another forum some rumours that the writers wanted to have Willow in a relationship with a man in S7 but got scared of the very hostile reaction to Tara's death, so they tried to re-establish their "lesbian street cred" by vowing to keep Willow 100% gay. I can't say if there is any truth in that but this sounds quite plausible to me because there was certainly an awful lot of pandering of all kinds in that season. For the record, I like Willow as a lesbian but I think writers should stick to the stories they want to tell, not go with the desires of the most numerous or most vocal fan factions. Yes, I know, I am very naive. 🙂

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I read on another forum some rumours that the writers wanted to have Willow in a relationship with a man in S7 but got scared of the very hostile reaction to Tara's death, so they tried to re-establish their "lesbian street cred" by vowing to keep Willow 100% gay. I can't say if there is any truth in that but this sounds quite plausible to me because there was certainly an awful lot of pandering of all kinds in that season. For the record, I like Willow as a lesbian but I think writers should stick to the stories they want to tell, not go with the desires of the most numerous or most vocal fan factions. Yes, I know, I am very naive. 🙂

Actually, I believe that's pretty much true and the writers confirmed it as much. They wanted to put Willow back with Xander or another man but then the SMALL but INCREDIBLY LOUD group who ONLY tuned into the show because Willow was with a woman was calling them homophobic and probably would've boycotted the show. So the writers gave in and Willow became gay in season 7.

Also, can someone bring up the text from Season 7 of her falling under that love spell. I have to get ready for school but I could've sworn she was totally for the boy but then Anya or Buffy had to remind her she was gay, she said it didn't matter and that she could work around that but then ultimately decided that in order to knock everyone out of the competition as she had experience with women, that she'd turn the kid into a woman.

 

[Icarium]

Actually, I believe that's pretty much true and the writers confirmed it as much. They wanted to put Willow back with Xander or another man but then the SMALL but INCREDIBLY LOUD group who ONLY tuned into the show because Willow was with a woman was calling them homophobic and probably would've boycotted the show. So the writers gave in and Willow became gay in season 7.

The funny thing is this only made said group of vocal fans even more pissed at Joss. One can still read some of the threads posted in 2002 and 2003 on the most popular Willow/Tara shipper board and some of the posts even made me feel a bit bad for Joss, despite being a huge Willow/Tara fan myself and thinking S6-7 are a pile of garbage masquerading as a TV show. That said, I have no idea what made Joss think he was going to placate the fans of Willow/Tara by having the new love interest be (he calls her that explicitly in interviews and commentaries, I believe) the anti-Tara. Not only does that make no sense in theory but it had already backfired with Riley, the anti-Angel.

Also, can someone bring up the text from Season 7 of her falling under that love spell.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/128_tran.html

 

[Kanazaka]

To answer the question posed by this thread, it's a bit complicated. The first full season of Buffy I watched was Season Six, when Willow was well into her relationship with Tara (even though they were kind of on the outs due to Willow's magic use). So, I accepted Willow's homosexuality. Therefore, when I first saw "Hush" (in which Willow and Tara clearly establish their mutual romantic and sexual attraction for each other), I was not surprised. I thought that the writers handled the friendship-to-relationship transition pretty well, so that it didn't seem as if Willow suddenly decided she was gay. Although I've always thought that Willow's relationship with Tara could have been something much more if Willow hadn't been so distracted by wanting to develop her magical abilities. I'm not sure whether or not I question Willow's homosexuality, or whether or not I question how much she really loved Tara. Willow and Tara connected through a mutual use of magic, and remained connected until Tara died, so it's difficult to extricate their "magical" relationship from their romantic/sexual relationship. And like many of you, I think that the writers didn't portray an entirely convincing lesbian relationship, and could have benefited from either a lesbian writer on staff or feedback from homosexual fans.