What Do You Hate About Angel/Angelus

[white avenger]

Since we've all had so much fun roasting Spike lately, I just thought that I'd toss Ol' Broody on the fire and see how he sizzles.

To start this off, I'll say that I've never hated the character all that much. Been exasperated with him quite often, have seriously thought about breaking a wooden stake off in a particular tender part of his anatomy more than once, and fantasized about catching him unconscious and shaving his head occasionally (since he can't use a mirror, he'd be wondering for days what everyone was laughing about). But I've never truly hated him. I've even found his antics somewhat amusing and enjoyable as long as he stays away from Buffy. However...

As I've said before, having being the victim of bullies myself until well into my teen years, I do hate the way that Angelus treats Spike. They're both monsters and murderers, Angelus even more so than Spike, and there's no call for it. They're supposed to be the vampiric equivalent of family, and, where I come from, Grandpa doesn't slap his grandson around just to prove that he can. That, I find unforgivable.

Secondly, I hate the way that Angel makes decisions, often affecting other people's lives, without so much as giving them the opportunity to give their input. Sure, the writers have gone to great lengths to make most of his decisions seem to work out for the best, but still, interfering with someone else's life without permission is interfering in someone else's life without permission, and there's no sugar coating it. Tara having her memory altered, no matter how justified she felt about doing so, is wrong, but, for some strange reason, when Angel does basically the same thing with all of his friends, as well, apparently, the entire population of Los Angeles at the end of Season 4, it's considered heroic and self sacrificing, but mind raping that many people just so that his son wouldn't be held responsible for his multiple crimes is far worse than anything that Willow ever attempted.

 

[Taake]

Hm, wow, I'm actually about to agree with you about a Spike/Angel thing (is the end nigh?) 😉

But I fullheartedly agree with your hatred of Angelus' treatment of Spike. I always rather despised him a bit for that because I felt that they took it too far sometimes, especially considering that the Fanged Four seemed to hang out together for quite some time... it fits with who Angelus was, I get that, but I don't like it.

 

[itssmiletime]

I strongly disliked Angel on BTVS. He was so dull and boring, purely as a love interest and contained many cliches in the book. It also doesn't help that David Boreanaz wasn't all that in terms of acting back then.

As a person, he has his flaws, but in terms of being a character, in ATS, not many problems there. Sure, his overall arc isn't anywhere close to Wesley, yet he is established enough. I strongly believe that even the most vile people can make great characters.

Yet, if we are talking about Angel, the individual, not the character, then I do quite dislike his tendency to close people off and make decisions for others. He can be occasionally self-righteous.

About the mind wipe spell in Home. Was it bad? Yes. Yet it's such an, Angel thing to do. I think to move the plot forward, Angel did have to make a gigantic decision. And the moments that make you want to throw whatever food your eating at the screen- yeah, those make great characters. (this of course, excludes sexual violence, abuse and mental health issues, etc). Angel, once again, makes a decision that he feels is the best for everyone involved. It's consistent writing, imo.

 

[Lyri]

The ONLY think that I hate Angel for his is decision to kill Lindsey, and even then, it's not really 'hate'. I mean, I can understand why he did it, but with that in mind, he also should have been demanding that Spike, Willow, Faith, Andrew, Harmony and himself be killed as well.

 

[Kean]

Walk into the thread like:

Have fun roasting guys! 😀

 

[NeonNightLight]

Seeing as Angel's my fave character of the whole series, I never really hated anything about him 😛 I mean, I did disagree with some of his actions at times but I never held a grudge against him. They were always understandable to me considering what situation he was in. Also, I hate the term 'mind rape'. It just makes me cringe. I haven't rewatched AtS for a while, but I never thought the situation in IWRY constituted as mind rape. However, I did dislike it when Angel erased everyone's memories of Connor.
And I will NEVER forgive Angelus for killing Jenny. No matter how badass he is 😉

 

[EVIL UU]

I hate Angel because of his hubris. I hate Angel because he follows his ego, not his heart. I hate Angel because he is an insufferable, paternalistic *ass*.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Regarding your hatred of Angel/Angelus for his...um...we'll call it "bullying" of Spike, for starters, that's not Angel. Why would you dislike Angelus for that? It also seems more than a little rich to so strongly dislike Angel/Angelus for that in light of all the things that a soulless Spike, hardly a saint himself, does. You don't consider him relentlessly telling Buffy she's broken in S6, when he knows how vulnerable she is, to be bullying? Really?

I'm not trying to incite an argument, but if you have a standard against bullying (which I think is great) then at least try and apply it fairly.

---------------------------------------------

As to what do I hate about Angel?

Not a damn thing.

 

[Kairos]

Wait, so the Spike love thread was because there's been too much Spike hate, and the Angel hate thread is because...there's been too much Spike hate? Man, that Spike must be awfully burdened.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Regarding your hatred of Angel/Angelus for his...um...we'll call it "bullying" of Spike, for starters, that's not Angel. Why would you dislike Angelus for that? It also seems more than a little rich to so strongly dislike Angel/Angelus for that in light of all the things that a soulless Spike, hardly a saint himself, does. You don't consider him relentlessly telling Buffy she's broken in S6, when he knows how vulnerable she is, to be bullying? Really?

I'm not trying to incite an argument, but if you have a standard against bullying (which I think is great) then at least try and apply it fairly.

---------------------------------------------

As to what do I hate about Angel?

Not a damn thing.

This is concerns what I hate about Angel and Angelus. Angelus bullied Spike, Angel made decisions affecting others' lives without giving them any say in the matter.

And, as I said in the beginning, this thread is about roasting Angel and Angelus. Spike is being well seared elsewhere.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

white avenger disagrees: The name of the thread is "What Do You Hate About Angel/Angelus, so I can hat things about either or both, and it's still valid.

So does this mean you and I should stay out of the "Why Spike ruined BTVS" thread?

And absolutely, you are free to like or dislike whoever you want. But that doesn't mean I can't debate it with you. Saying you hate a behavior as a basis for "hating" a character, while completely ignoring that same behavior in a character you love, is contradictory. Both behaviors were acted in bad faith, with no mitigating circumstances. There's a fine correlation there.

So when you ignore that correlation while creating a thread specifically designed to hate on a character (and one I obviously like 🙂), it comes off as a little partisan to me.

 

[janas]

I hate everything about Angelus. I hate Angelus as much as Angel hates him. Angelus is just a inflated balloon, a moron without strength nor backbone, he thought he could to bend Buffy as he did with Drusilla, but he has underestimated the true strength of Buffy. But Angelus (in BTVS) is most terrifying Big Bad that Buffy has had to face (had to deal with?). He was it certainly for Buffy, because she wore the face of man she loved, and that is why he it's interesting. Without these elements, Angelus would be an ordinary Parker Abrams.

As to what do I hate about Angel, I don't hate anything about him. I may not always been happy for some his choices, but I understand why he acted that way. So, there's nothing that I hate, but only understanding and respect for his *painful* choices.

..so that his son wouldn't be held responsible for his multiple crimes..

Please, can you elaborate on this?
What are Connor crimes? I expect a long list, since you speak of multiple crimes.

 

[white avenger]

Please, can you elaborate on this?
What are Connor crimes? I expect a long list, since you speak of multiple crimes.

Among other things, Connor murdered one girl for Cordy who was used as a sacrifice. He sealed Angel in a steel cage and dropped him in a few hundred feet of Pacific Ocean. He was about to blow up a hen Angel cut his deal small group of citizens when Angel stopped him. Those come to mind immediately, but there were more.

Angel cut a deal with Wolfram & Hart to take away all memory of Connor's crimes and set him up with a new identity, parents, memory, and history, while also wiping all memory that Connor had ever existed, or the crimes that he had committed, out of the minds of everyone who had ever known about them. If that were truly EVERYONE who had ever known anything, it would have to include everyone who had ever seen mention of them in news broadcasts, read about them in the papers, or had been involved in investigating the crimes. Basically, the entire population of the city of Los Angeles, if not the state of California, or even the whole nation. That's one hell of a mind rape.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Tara having her memory altered, no matter how justified she felt about doing so, is wrong, but, for some strange reason, when Angel does basically the same thing with all of his friends, as well, apparently, the entire population of Los Angeles at the end of Season 4, it's considered heroic and self sacrificing, but mind raping that many people just so that his son wouldn't be held responsible for his multiple crimes is far worse than anything that Willow ever attempted.

Just wanted to point out that while I do very much agree that it's highly problematic for Angel to have altered the memories of so many people, I do think it is far more forgivable (at least understandable) than when Willow does it to Tara.

When Angel alters Buffy's mind and the minds of countless Californians, he does it to protect the people he loves, (ie Buffy and Conor). He makes a call in the moment when he wants to save Connor from a lifetime in prison, (and indeed he feels personally responsible for Connor's upbringing and his many crimes which I'm sure spurs this decision). And when the oracles had told him that Buffy's life would be in danger if he remained human, he decided to do what he thought best to protect her.

So again, I agree that the act of erasing a part of someone's memory is very much an unfavorable thing to do, but Willow did it to manipulate Tara whereas Angel did it to protect Buffy and Connor. Though Angel might have been in the wrong, he did what he truly and deeply believed what was right. Willow knew she was wrong but wanted to control her lover.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],



So does this mean you and I should stay out of the "Why Spike ruined BTVS" thread?

And absolutely, you are free to like or dislike whoever you want. But that doesn't mean I can't debate it with you. Saying you hate a behavior as a basis for "hating" a character, while completely ignoring that same behavior in a character you love, is contradictory. Both behaviors were acted in bad faith, with no mitigating circumstances. There's a fine correlation there.

So when you ignore that correlation while creating a thread specifically designed to hate on a character (and one I obviously like 🙂), it comes off as a little partisan to me.

Just to clarify, I hate the things that Spike did for the century plus of his existence before coming to Sunnydale. I hate the evil things that he did in Season 2, Season 3, Season 4, and from that point on to the end of time. Yes, he tormented Buffy and her friends at every occasion, and the first thing that he did, both upon escaping from the Initiative and mistakenly believing that his chip had stopped working, was to try and kill someone. I hated his actions in trying to betray Buffy and the Scoobies in "The Yoko Factor." He took advantage of Buffy when she was in a state of mental depression. He told her constantly that she "came back wrong," and that she "belonged in the dark" with him. I hate that he tried to rape Buffy. I hate that god awful blue shirt that he wore in "Beneath You..." I hate that he plays kitten poker. I hate that he probably scratches his butt and picks his nose with tha same hand. I hate all of those things about Spike, and therefore I hate that part of HIM that does them.

If the title of this thread concerned what I hated about SPIKE, I would list all of those things (assuming that I could remember them all). Start a thread about the things that I hate about Spike, of why I hate Spike, and I will be right there to participate, but, as I said originally, this is a thread about what people hate about Angel and/or Angelus, not Spike.

This thread isn't "Why Spike Ruined Season 7," and, if you will recall, we DID debate about Spike's good and bad traits there. This is the thread where we get to roast Angel with the same enthusiasm that has been shown to Spike in several threads lately, created simply to point out that, while Spike is as impure as the fresh fallen yellow snow, Angel ain't no Galahad either.

(And, no, this post isn't writter in any form of anger, but it IS written for clarity)

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Fair enough. For the record, I think the arguments against Spike in the other thread weren't overly fair either. I was trying, in my previous post here, to debate what you dislike about Angel, just as we teamed up to debate what BEG disliked about Spike. I wasn't trying to say that your points were strictly invalid, and if I can across that way, I apologize.

I think that [MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] hit the nail on the head. Willow's mind-wiping of Tara is done out of a desire to control and dominate her lover. Angel's is not. What Angel does in "IWRY" and to make people forget Connor (forget the episode name) is not. It's done out of self-sacrifice and to save the people he loves and cares about. You can choose to see that as corny, but that's why he did it. Angel gains nothing from those decisions. They don't benefit him. He's not being selfish.

Also, sorry for hitting the disagree button. It was an impulse whenever I see the term "mind-rape". I HATE that term. People use it all the time, but to me, it demeans actual rape.

 

[janas]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] Among other things

• Jas-delia killed that girl. Sure, Connor's hands are bloodstained, because he was weak in that moment, but technically it was not him to do that murder. So, Ego te Absolvo, Connor.

• Connor sealed Angel in a steel cage and dropped him in a few hundred feet of Pacific Ocean, but from a Connor Pov, he was doing the right thing. Connor has no idea who is Angel, he knows only what he said Holtz, and I do not think that Holtz has lost time to decanted the goodness of soul Angel's. For Connor, that was only Angelus (You're the prince of lies), the one who killed Holtz (You murdered my father.) Connor has been misled and manipulated both by Justine that by Holtz. But even in this case, technically he did not kill Angel, since vampires do not die from drowning.

• The scene at shopping mall, show us that Connor is now lost in the maze of madness. He falls to pieces, just as has happened to many people of Los Angeles, when they realize they have lost the loving care of Jasmine. Connor isn't the only one who goes out of his mind, the whole town is in a panic, some want to commit suicide, others devastate the town ..and others (our heroes) make a pact with the devil. Gunn, Lorne, Fred and Wesley, regardless of the decision of Angel, agree to work for W&H.

..besides, Angel NOT cut a deal with Wolfram & Hart to take away all memory of Connor's crimes. Do you think that Angel wanted to subtract his son to the law or from jail? Angel wanted to save him by the memory a terrible childhood. Angel wanted his son to survive the horror of Quor-Thot. Angel wanted Connor could have a future. After all, he had promised to Darla.
This child... Angel, it's the one good thing we ever did together. The only good thing. You make sure to tell him that.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

[MENTION=10426]janas[/MENTION] You make a lot of good points there but I think what White Avenger meant was that Connor committed crimes that would send him to prison, regardless of his intentions when he committed them, or any supernatural elements that would perhaps exonerate him in certain circles but not in a US court.

Hence Angel's haste to mind-wipe so many people lest Connor go to prison for his crimes...

 

[white avenger]

If someone robs a bank, or kills another person, except under very specific circumstances, or burns down a school building, that person is guilty of the crimes of robbery, murder or manslaughter, and arson, respectively. What their motives were for committing those crimes doesn't change the fact that the crimes were committed, and the perpetrator is guilty and susceptible to punishment.

Angel wiped the memories of a group of people without their foreknowledge or permission.

Connor sealed Angel in a cage and dropped him into the ocean, obviously against Angel's wishes or permission.

Connor took part in performing a ritual that resulted in a young woman being murdered.

Connor was in the act of killing another group of people when Angel stopped him.

Regardless of attitude, misinformation, or mental state, all of those things are crimes, punishable by law (well, maybe not the mind wipe, since the law doesn't deal in such matters) no different than everything that Faith did and which, to the best of my knowledge, Angel supported and encouraged, and made no effort to either help her escape or use his facilities after taking control of Wolfram & Hart to have reduced in sentence, paroled, or pardoned altogether.

I realize that Connor is Angel's miracle child, literally, but that should not make him immune to punishment for crimes committed.

 

[janas]

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION]: What you say is right. For a court of the United States, the actions of Connor are punishable by imprisonment, but prison would not save Connor from madness and neither from suicide. Save Connor's life. That was the true motivation of Angel.

Here is what was the deal and motivation. Give Connor a normal life.

ANGEL: The senior partners and I had a deal.
HAMILTON: Yes, you did. They took your son--your raging psychopathic son--gave him a new family, changed his memories, changed everyone's memories, actually, in order to give him a new life, a normal life.
ANGEL: And I came to work here!

Do you really think that Connor was responsible for his own folly? Do you really believe, that he, at that time, was responsible for his actions? Probably, a court would not have condemned Connor, or perhaps they locked him in a psychiatric prison. But do you think Connor was really guilty? He deserved such a harsh judgment?