What Do You Hate About Angel/Angelus

janas said:
[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION]: What you say is right. For a court of the United States, the actions of Connor are punishable by imprisonment, but prison would not save Connor from madness and neither from suicide. Save Connor's life. That was the true motivation of Angel.

Here is what was the deal and motivation. Give Connor a normal life.

ANGEL: The senior partners and I had a deal.
HAMILTON: Yes, you did. They took your son--your raging psychopathic son--gave him a new family, changed his memories, changed everyone's memories, actually, in order to give him a new life, a normal life.
ANGEL: And I came to work here!

Do you really think that Connor was responsible for his own folly? Do you really believe, that he, at that time, was responsible for his actions? Probably, a court would not have condemned Connor, or perhaps they locked him in a psychiatric prison. But do you think Connor was really guilty? He deserved such a harsh judgment?
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I'm one of those apparently rare people who still believe that murder is a serious crime and, yes, deserves harsh punishment. If Connor were to be judged mentally incompetent, there are psychiatric facilities designed to handle those who commit major crimes but weren't in control of themselves at the time that they did so.

But te original point that I was trying to make several posts ago is that Angel cut a deal with the Senior Partners to effectively get Connor off the hook for the crimes that he had committed. That action by Angel was an example of one of the things that I find objectionable about Angel, the subject of this thread, not Connor himself. The thread's title specifies what you hate about Angel or Angelus, not Spike, Connor, or any other character in Joss' stable.
 
Angel also killed the Drogyn, a creature on the side of good. He seems to think that moral scruples can be set aside in order to accomplish the elimination of evil, something that is self-contradictory because he then becomes the new evil. In other words, the end justifies the means. Moral ambiguity is the hallmark of Angel wherever he has a decision to make.
 
I also have no interest in commenting in this thread.

Sick of all the fake "bullying" and "haters" comments in regards to Spike.

Funnily enough there is no "What do you hate about Spike thread", the main "anti-Spike" threads are the one started by me, one which pointed out flaws in season 7, the the negative affect Spike had on that season and the other thread was a question from someone who has defended Spike very passionately on here. Just because a couple of people dont think the sun shines out of Spikes ass doesn't make them a hater.


Clearly not happy with the activity of the "what do you like about Spike thread" you've tried to drag Angel down just to have something. No Spike thread is a collection of things hated about Spike, both sides are entitled to their opinions; good and bad, this thread isn't a collection of opinions from either side, it's a list of negatives. 100% character hating, the words even in the title.

This is a perfectly valid thread, or it would have been had the main premiss of the thread not been "Spike is getting a lot of hate, why not give some to Angel" - If I made this thread for Spike, I'd have been ripped apart, and if the thread had addressed an issue that happened to portray Angel in a negative light, thats absolutely fine, you'll find loads of those, but to just call it out for the sake of calling it out is blatant character bashing.

So no thanks, if I wanted that type of discussion, I'd reply to threads on IMDB.
 
Kairos
Kairos
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Blaze
Blaze
I laughed at the IMDB comment
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ladydorotea
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janas
janas
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Lyri
Lyri
[No message]
Black Eye Guy said:
I also have no interest in commenting in this thread.

Sick of all the fake "bullying" and "haters" comments in regards to Spike.

Funnily enough there is no "What do you hate about Spike thread", the main "anti-Spike" threads are the one started by me, one which pointed out flaws in season 7, the the negative affect Spike had on that season and the other thread was a question from someone who has defended Spike very passionately on here. Just because a couple of people dont think the sun shines out of Spikes ass doesn't make them a hater.


Clearly not happy with the activity of the "what do you like about Spike thread" you've tried to drag Angel down just to have something. No Spike thread is a collection of things hated about Spike, both sides are entitled to their opinions; good and bad, this thread isn't a collection of opinions from either side, it's a list of negatives. 100% character hating, the words even in the title.

This is a perfectly valid thread, or it would have been had the main premiss of the thread not been "Spike is getting a lot of hate, why not give some to Angel" - If I made this thread for Spike, I'd have been ripped apart, and if the thread had addressed an issue that happened to portray Angel in a negative light, thats absolutely fine, you'll find loads of those, but to just call it out for the sake of calling it out is blatant character bashing.

So no thanks, if I wanted that type of discussion, I'd reply to threads on IMDB.
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For someone with no interest in commenting in this thread, you sure did say a lot.

And, since you would rather comment on this subject on IMBD, why are you even here?
 
General note: Without getting personal on anyone I would like to be able to see this thread as a place to discuss what one might dislike about the Angel/Angelus character (he can take it) without it turning into 'bashing' etc.

So let's leave ruffled feathers aside and keep the conversation on a calm level. Angel is flawless just as little as Spike is and I would hate to see the thread devolve into a Spike fans vs. Angel fans screaming match. It's ok to find something wrong in character, it's ok to discuss, let's just make sure it doesn't get personal, ok?
 
R
Robb Stark
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white avenger said:
I'm one of those apparently rare people who still believe that murder is a serious crime and, yes, deserves harsh punishment. If Connor were to be judged mentally incompetent, there are psychiatric facilities designed to handle those who commit major crimes but weren't in control of themselves at the time that they did so.
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..and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Connor would be able to escape, or he would have killed himself, while Angel wanted to save him.
But te original point that I was trying to make several posts ago is that Angel cut a deal with the Senior Partners to effectively get Connor off the hook for the crimes that he had committed. That action by Angel was an example of one of the things that I find objectionable about Angel, the subject of this thread, not Connor himself. The thread's title specifies what you hate about Angel or Angelus, not Spike, Connor, or any other character in Joss' stable.
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..and I replied, both Angelus which on Angel.

If you think talk about Connor is OT (and certainly it's), you should have said several posts ago, perhaps avoiding to answer my question. And anyway, it's OT also talk about Willow, but since the initial post, you mention Willow and Connor, it's difficult to ignore these two characters. My answers on Connor were related to the motivation of Angel about his choices, and I think it's on-topic. Angel didn't want to condone the multiple Connor's crimes, that wasn't his motivation, Angel wanted to remedying his mistakes as a father. Mistakes that I think he didn't commit. Others are the real culprits of the madness of Connor, not Angel. He did what any father would have done, save the life of his son. Connor could be rehabilitated using other ways? Certainly yes, but would take an entire season to see it realize. But writers have decided that Connor had to leave the scene, to make way for another character that I will call "The Unnamed" ..so we avoid OT.
 
Lyri
Lyri
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janas said:
If you think talk about Connor is OT (and certainly it's), you should have said several posts ago, perhaps avoiding to answer my question. And anyway, it's OT also talk about Willow, but since the initial post, you mention Willow and Connor, it's difficult to ignore these two characters. My answers on Connor were related to the motivation of Angel about his choices, and I think it's on-topic. Angel didn't want to condone the multiple Connor's crimes, that wasn't his motivation, Angel wanted to remedying his mistakes as a father. Mistakes that I think he didn't commit. Others are the real culprits of the madness of Connor, not Angel. He did what any father would have done, save the life of his son. Connor could be rehabilitated using other ways? Certainly yes, but would take an entire season to see it realize. But writers have decided that Connor had to leave the scene, to make way for another character that I will call "The Unnamed" ..so we avoid OT.
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I wasn't trying to say that what Connor did didn't apply to the subject, what I was doing was using that to illustrate another example of Angel taking it upon himself to alter the memories of others without their foreknowledge or permission. That's not remedying his mistakes as a father, or even trying to learn from them. That's avoiding those mistakes by simply in effect pretending that they no longer exist. But once more, that isn't my point in this case. My point is that Angel took it upon himself to steal the memories of others and substitute lies in their place. Even though his motives could be explained as being a father's attempt to protect his son, his method of doing so was to take it upon himself to decide what others had a right to remember. That is the part of this situation that I was trying to point out.

I still believe that what Connor did was wrong in the worst degree, and he should be punished for it. As far as we know, those people remained dead, the only thing that was changed was the fact that no one, not even he, himself, remembered that he was the one who killed them.
 
janas
janas
I will answer only when you stop ignore Angel's motivations.
I hate that Angelus is basically a coward, for all his bluster. He only picks fights with people when they're weaker that himself (Spike in a wheelchair, emotionally fragile Buffy, beaten up Faith, Fred). I think he's dangerous because he gets you when your weak, unlike Spike, who'll at least go after you straight on.
(I'm talking about Spike and slayers in this instance, although Spike bullies people weaker than him as well. Look how he treats his subordinates in Buffy.)

Angel...is more complex, his motivations for what he did to Buffy in 'IWRY' I don't have any problem with them, mainly because he told Buffy about it before it happened and she didn't have a problem with. She was upset, but understood, and I tend to take that into account.
Again, with Conner, when people find out...nobody, not even Conner, is particularly angry with Angel. Not one character calls him on his descision.
The whole 'Conner being held accountable for his crimes'...if a jury were able to understand and wrap their heads around 'being raised in a hell dimension by a raging nutjob', and about what that did to Conner, and then later how he was manipulated by Justine, Holtz and then later Jas-delia, Conner wouldn't have seen a day of jail time- psych ward? Sure, but not jail.
So ask what can be served by putting Conner behind bars? Instead Angel gives him a newer, happy life but in the process thinks he's losing him forever.
This is a sacrifice, its not just a 'lets play with peoples minds.'
It's all about context- what justification did Willow ever have for doing what she did to Tara? Selfish motivation, that's all. 😡

Oh, and I too hate the term 'mind-rape', because its never used in an appropriate context.😡 (Look to Dollhouse for an example of this sort of thing, not Buffy/Angel)

The thing I can't really forgive Angel for is 'Twilight', because he was clearly some-what in control most of the time, (its unclear as to how much, we haven't got a definitive answer.) but I'm still enjoying his slow road to rehabilitation.

Oh, and Angel sold Cordelia's clothes in S2, that monster!

Still I've yet to see Angel wear a victim trophy he got from his vamp monster days around people who were affected by said murder, just because he looks cool in it.
Spike (soulled Spike) will always be a complete jackass for doing that, and I'm saying that as somebody who doesn't really like Wood that much. 😡
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that he makes decisions, ones of impact, on his own. Perhaps this can be traced back to events in his past or what have you, but there's still a lot to take issue with. He tends to do what he thinks is right, no matter what anybody else says. There's the obvious example of his choice to leave Buffy. There's also the decision he made in 'I Will Remember You' where he didn't consult Buffy, instead simply told her. It's a notable flaw, one he shares with Edward Cullen actually. I will never for a second believe Stephanie Meyer when she says she never saw a single episode of Buffy.
 
Just popping in to point out that Angel took the W&H deal to stop Connor blowing himself and shop full of people up, not to avoid jail time.

Also, Angel didn't use his W&H resources to lessen Faith's jail time because a) she had broken out of jail, helped stop the First and was slaying in Cleveland by then and b) Faith turned herself in as the first step of atonement. She had the physical capabilities to leave anytime she wanted. The last thing she wanted was someone lessening her penance. Her incarceration held crucial purpose for her. Angel understood and respected that. More than any character in the verse ever could.

*Backs out slowly*
 
Lyri
Lyri
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R
Robb Stark
It's amazing how many people simply choose to ignore context when it comes to Angel.
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