What do you think of the episode "Amends"?

[Robb Stark]

True, but there are more cheesy melodramatic Bangel moments compared to Spuffy.

The only other one I can think of that even remotely whiffs of cheese is Spike's "You make me feel like a man" line in "The Gift". With Bangel - off the top of my head, there's the "when you kiss me I want to die", their arguing in "I Will Always Remember You" and a lot more. Wesley and Cordelia's Bangel parody, to me, epitomises their relationship in my eyes. The whole tone of the relationship is melodrama. I much prefer the more muted Bangel moments, like their dance in "The Prom" and "You still my girl? Always." But their melodrama overshadowed these moments.

Spuffy, on the other hand, is all about how messy and dirty a relationship can be. How two people gradually grow together and grow to love one another, without it being depicted as though it was destined, or whatever. To me as a viewer, Spuffy was domestic and real and there were far fewer melodramatic moments. And when they occured they were more subtle and less over the top and in your face.

I suppose we just have different definitions of what constitutes "cheesy". I don't consider any of those moments you listed cheesy. They fit the characters and the scenes they were in. A passionate relationship on television, to me at least, doesn't automatically mean cheesy or over the top. And I'm sorry, but as I've said in the past, I don't understand, even remotely, how a relationship which revolves around the two primaries beating the living hell out of one another somehow gets portrayed as realistic, grounded or domestic. The relationship begins with Spike literally stalking Buffy and her hating him. She sleeps with him because "she just wants to feel" (which compared to anything else in any other relationship Buffy had, is melodramatic), which leads to repeated hate-sex. He then tries to rape her, flees to Africa and regains his soul by having bugs crawling in and out of him. What exactly is real and domestic about that? Now, Buffy/Spike for most of S7? Yeah, I can at least see your point. But please, prior to that, Buffy/Spike is totally over the top. Now that doesn't bug me, it's a protagonist featured romance after all, but it is hardly, hardly realistic.

(And don't get me wrong, I do enjoy Spike/Buffy, for the most part. After Angel, Spike is my favorite character of either series. I just have never understood the diehard Spuffy crowd's argument of how "realistic" it is, while saying that Buffy and Angel are so melodramatic. If S6 isn't melodramatic, then I don't know what is)

 

[Yosso]

I suppose we just have different definitions of what constitutes "cheesy". I don't consider any of those moments you listed cheesy. They fit the characters and the scenes they were in. A passionate relationship on television, to me at least, doesn't automatically mean cheesy or over the top. And I'm sorry, but as I've said in the past, I don't understand, even remotely, how a relationship which revolves around the two primaries beating the living hell out of one another somehow gets portrayed as realistic, grounded or domestic. The relationship begins with Spike literally stalking Buffy and her hating him. She sleeps with him because "she just wants to feel" (which compared to anything else in any other relationship Buffy had, is melodramatic), which leads to repeated hate-sex. He then tries to rape her, flees to Africa and regains his soul by having bugs crawling in and out of him. What exactly is real and domestic about that? Now, Buffy/Spike for most of S7? Yeah, I can at least see your point. But please, prior to that, Buffy/Spike is totally over the top. Now that doesn't bug me, it's a protagonist featured romance after all, but it is hardly, hardly realistic.

(And don't get me wrong, I do enjoy Spike/Buffy, for the most part. After Angel, Spike is my favorite character of either series. I just have never understood the diehard Spuffy crowd's argument of how "realistic" it is, while saying that Buffy and Angel are so melodramatic. If S6 isn't melodramatic, then I don't know what is)

You're right, I think our perceptions of what melodrama is differ. I think part of what makes Bangel melodramatic is the very soap-opera nature of it. I see their arguments as "Angel, don't you love me?!" "I'm a brooding vampire with a soul, we can never be together or it will hurt you." "But I looove you." "I want to be with you, but I know I shouldn't." Repeat. That's how I see it, other fans would disagree. I'm not trying to undermine Bangel or anything, this is just how I perceive it.

Also, there was little progression or build up to explain how or why Buffy and Angel became attracted to each other. It just, was. And we as the audience were expected to just buy it and not question it. With Spuffy, there were seasons of development which eventually led to Spuffy getting together. From what I remember of S1 (not watched it in ages) we're just expected to believe Buffy and Angel are meant to be together and that's that. By episode 7, the viewers were expected to be team Bangel when Angel had hardly even appeared in the show up til then.

Spuffy isn't more realistic in the sense that it portrays real life directly - it's a couple in a show about vampires and demons, where one of the couple is a vampire - documentary style realism isn't the aim. It's just more realistic because there was more progression and build up to the relationship, and though there are obstacles to their relationship the tone isn't one that resembles a romantic novel. Spike's obsession with Buffy is creepy, it's weird, but that's part of the progression which to me makes it more "realistic" compared to Bangel. For me, Spuffy has more layers. Spike goes from wanting Buffy dead pre-chip, to general dislike, to weird obsession, to a more noble state at the end of S5 to overly sexual in S6 to ennobled at the end of S7.

I enjoy Bangel too in parts, it can be a lovely relationship to watch. But their tender moments are more enjoyable than their melodramatic ones.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg were recruited from "All My Children". Soapy enough for you?

Not fair (though an interesting tidbit), the other projects of the actors should not be used to judge their characters or acting syles here. It is completely unrelated not to mention the actors only perform what is given to them. The real fault for something like this lies with the writers.

I am unable to make a comparison between Bangel and Spuffy as where I am I believe Buffy and Spike might have JUST hooked up but and please forgive me to all it's fans I can not see how their coupling could be condoned after how completely sick Spike's obsession was with her in seasons 4 and 5. The shrine, mannequin and robot, not to mention all the lurking around her house are all ingredients for the perfect stalker profile for an episode of Criminal Minds. He got better and he's even actually growing on me he's become a more in depth character but is that behavior really something you could see past?

I was into Bangel, though a lot because I am simply a hopeless romantic. Though when you put it this way

"Angel, don't you love me?!" "I'm a brooding vampire with a soul, we can never be together or it will hurt you." "But I looove you." "I want to be with you, but I know I shouldn't." Repeat.

it does come out to be very Twilight, when you add in the entire Angelus arc and the fact that he can't have purely blissful sex without becoming evil I find it to have a tasteful and intense twist.

Though honestly since recently finishing season 3 and beginning season 4 of 'Angel' I am also pretty into Cordangel. Although at this point that seems so far to have little chance of even really starting let alone going anywhere. For a while however watching all the obvious lead ups, I actually pretty much forgot about Bangel.

I think we are all in agreement though that this particular episode of BTVS was in fact quite cheesy purely because it was set at Christmas if nothing else. Even the whole thing with Angel being haunted by The First and the Bringers while quite tasteful and the backstory interesting, was nothing short of somewhat a Christmas Carol similar idea with a unique portrayal.

 

[brooke2707]

my main issue with this episode is... i hate angel centric episodes

 

[Bluebird]

I love this episode. It's one I can watch again and again, outwith the rest of the series, because when you get right down to it, it's a character study of Angel. Angel episodes were always a joy for me on Buffy, getting to see more of his backstory. A lot of this was a good setup for Angel the series.

It can be seen as cheesy and sentimental. It really is. But it's like a Christmas movie, you just gotta accept it and wallow in it. 😀

Besides all the drama with Angel, the scenes with the rest of the characters were great. Even just little moments like Xander deciding to help Buffy help Angel, were lovely.

 

[NeonNightLight]

Hiya, newbie here! *waves*
Anyways, I pretty much love this whole episode, from Faith coming to Buffy's house for dinner, to the whole Angel/Buffy scene on the cliff. I think that scene particularly is one of the most moving in the series.
However, I don't understand how it comes of as cheesy or overdramatic? How is attempting to commit suicide 'overdramatic'? And how is trying to stop that person you truly love and care about not going to turn out 'overdramatic'? Angel felt too weak to live on, and didn't think he deserved to either. For a hundred years he was all by himself, with no support, guidance, or purpose in his life. Buffy is who inspired him to start a new path to his life. And of course, if you had evil pressuring you to hurt the ONLY person in your life that you love, as well as essentially putting the world at risk, I don't think it should be seen as 'overdramatic' for wishing to take yourself out. Angel always saw himself as a weak man, and one whom didn't deserve to be redeemed. And Buffy loved him more than anything else in the world, so it would be completely reasonable for her to get upset, to cry, to try to stop him. I suppose I speak for myself when I say I would probably have the same reaction if I learned someone I loved was trying to take the same course as Angel.
Now, I do see how the snow itself can come across as over sentimental and cheesy. However, that scene always brings me joy for Angel, because after living such an aimless and pitiable existence, he finally saw that there was someone or something who thought he deserved to live, and that he truly had a purpose and could be redeemed.
Well, that's my two cents. Hopefully I didn't go overboard hehe 🙂