What Happened In The Alley

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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Has it ever occurred to anyone else that, if according to Whedon, Season 8 is canon, but After The Fall isn't necessarily, in the "real" Buffyverse, there's still a chance that Angel, Spike, and the others didn't really survive that last big fight? That would even explain why they're never mentioned , except in one rather erotic dream, by Buffy or any of her people.
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
Angel: After the Fall #1-17 are canon. Angel: Aftermath is not. And Joss confirmed Angel's appearance in Buffy S8 anyway.
I thought After The Fall was completely canon - not a S6, but just what happened after the finale of S5 - just that Aftermath isn't.

Did Whedon say somewhere that After The Fall isn't really canon? Because that's kind of hard to imagine. Why would he bother with the comics just to say, "Nope, that didn't really happen."
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
You're right, he's wrong.
white avenger said:
Everybody makes mistakes once in awhile.

Canon - Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel

I'm just better at it because I've had so much practice. (But I swear that I saw an article somewhere where Joss inferred that "After The Fall" deviated from the way that he had planned it.)
Click to expand...

Are you sure you're not mixing up S8 with After the Fall? Joss recently told TV Guide that After the Fall actually turned out MORE similarly to the Angel S6 planned for TV compared to Buffy Season Eight which he said hasn't turned out like the S8 he'd planned for TV.

Also, the link you provided is to a wiki (page created by fans, not official). It's also wrong. It lists Aftermath as confirmed canon which it isn't. Kelley Armstrong is the only person who even makes the claim it's canon, and she's the one who wrote it! She also admits that Joss has had zero involvement with it, and she's never even spoken to him.

According to Joss, if he doesn't write it (or map it out like he did BS6, AS5 & AtF) it's not canon unless he goes out of his way to say it is.
 
Wait a minute,slow down,check the rear view mirror,and apply the parking break.
All these comics are confusing my small but imperfectly formed
brain!
When did this happen?
Wtf is Canon,or cannon?
I'm missing the Buffyverse,and no-one told me?
Someone please PM me and fill me in a bit🙂:iamwithst
 
white avenger said:
Has it ever occurred to anyone else that, if according to Whedon, Season 8 is canon, but After The Fall isn't necessarily, in the "real" Buffyverse, there's still a chance that Angel, Spike, and the others didn't really survive that last big fight? That would even explain why they're never mentioned , except in one rather erotic dream, by Buffy or any of her people.
Click to expand...

This is a fascinating question. Seriously. It's given me a lot to think about. Unfortunatly, I have to leave for the bus like right now, but here's my quick take on it:

Personally, I've always liked to believe that show ended like it did, in that alley, with an ambiguous ending, not knowing who lived or died. A very Angelesque, crash-and-burn kind of a thing. I've always thought one of the main themes in the show is endlessness, or the idea that life just keeps on going no matter what you've been through and you just have to keep on fighting for what you want and believe. It makes it more powerful for me not knowing what happened in the end. This is why I choose not to read the Angel comics.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

captain peroxide said:
Wait a minute,slow down,check the rear view mirror,and apply the parking break.
All these comics are confusing my small but imperfectly formed
brain!
When did this happen?
Wtf is Canon,or cannon?
I'm missing the Buffyverse,and no-one told me?
Someone please PM me and fill me in a bit🙂:iamwithst
Click to expand...

A canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is a body of material that is considered to be "genuine," or that can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator of a series. New works set within that universe are constrained to be consistent with pre-existing canon. On the other hand, such consistency is not sufficient to make a work canonical; fan-fiction usually follows the canon but is not part of the canon (though elements from fan-fiction are occasionally adopted into new canonical works); thus new works, canonical and otherwise, are free to contradict pre-existing fan-fiction.

(Wiki)

So, basically, Buffy S8 is canon because Joss said so, yet Angel S6 is not.
 
captain peroxide said:
Wait a minute,slow down,check the rear view mirror,and apply the parking break.
All these comics are confusing my small but imperfectly formed
brain!
When did this happen?
Wtf is Canon,or cannon?
I'm missing the Buffyverse,and no-one told me?
Someone please PM me and fill me in a bit🙂:iamwithst
Click to expand...
"Canon" is a word that just means the real accepted story. In the case of the "Buffyverse," it's the universe the television shows exist within.

The reason a distinction needs to be made is because when it comes to books/comics, some fans of the show publish materials that may be entertaining, but are not considered to be legitimate parts of the character's stories.

One example is that in one popular book, Gunn and Spike meet when Buffy & Angel do a mission together. Obviously this wasn't considered "real" since in "canon" the two first meet when Spike comes to Wolfram & Hart in S5.

Now the materials that are considered canon really boil down to Joss Whedon. He created the characters and owns them from both a literary and legal perspective. So what is considered canon is what he writes, or oversees. The main materials that are canon are:

Buffy: the Vampire Slayer Seasons 1-7 (TV)
Angel: the Series Seasons 1-5 (TV)
Buffy Season Eight (Comic)
Angel: After the Fall Issues #1-17 & 23 (Comic)

Those are the pillars of the Canon Buffyverse, and follow the exploits of Buffy's Team & Angel's Team from the 1990s to the present day.

Other works considered canon are the spin-offs:
Fray: the Vampire Slayer (Comic)
Spike: After the Fall (Comic)
Tales of the Vampires (Comic)
Tales of the Slayers (Comic)
^as they were written either directly by Joss Whedon or under his auspices.

And Brian Lynch's Spike: Asylum & Spike: Shadow Puppets have been retroactively added into the canon even though Joss didn't write them. This is because Joss happened to like these books, and recruited Brian Lynch into his writing staff and entered his books into canon.
 
Canon also refers to literature that is considered "legitimate" or otherwise profound or socially and culturally important. Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, etc are in the canon of English literature. Everyone above covered it fine, I just felt like mentioning Shakespeare, Dickens, and Austen.

I'm glad that the Armstrong stories aren't canon, but I wonder why they were even included? I'm assuming that IDW just wanted to capitalize on the series, but why not do it with a writer that was chosen by Joss--or at least directed by him? That peeves me.
 
Buffyverse Fan said:
"Canon" is a word that just means the real accepted story. In the case of the "Buffyverse," it's the universe the television shows exist within.

The reason a distinction needs to be made is because when it comes to books/comics, some fans of the show publish materials that may be entertaining, but are not considered to be legitimate parts of the character's stories.

One example is that in one popular book, Gunn and Spike meet when Buffy & Angel do a mission together. Obviously this wasn't considered "real" since in "canon" the two first meet when Spike comes to Wolfram & Hart in S5.

Now the materials that are considered canon really boil down to Joss Whedon. He created the characters and owns them from both a literary and legal perspective. So what is considered canon is what he writes, or oversees. The main materials that are canon are:

Buffy: the Vampire Slayer Seasons 1-7 (TV)
Angel: the Series Seasons 1-5 (TV)
Buffy Season Eight (Comic)
Angel: After the Fall Issues #1-17 & 23 (Comic)

Those are the pillars of the Canon Buffyverse, and follow the exploits of Buffy's Team & Angel's Team from the 1990s to the present day.

Other works considered canon are the spin-offs:
Fray: the Vampire Slayer (Comic)
Spike: After the Fall (Comic)
Tales of the Vampires (Comic)
Tales of the Slayers (Comic)
^as they were written either directly by Joss Whedon or under his auspices.
Click to expand...


You Forgot to add "The Origin (Comic)" to the list of officially cannon.








And Brian Lynch's Spike: Asylum & Spike: Shadow Puppets have been retroactively added into the canon even though Joss didn't write them. This is because Joss happened to like these books, and recruited Brian Lynch into his writing staff and entered his books into canon.
Click to expand...

When did Joss say this?!!! Provide a link!!!!! If these are officially cannon I'll order them this week.
 
Oh well,
They'll always all be dead to me.
I like it better that way. It's a little to unrealistic that they could have gotten out of there away.
I don't read the Angel comics because I like the way that Angel ended.

And I agree with what happens in the alley, staying in the alley!
 
Emzzie said:
Oh well,
They'll always all be dead to me.
I like it better that way. It's a little to unrealistic that they could have gotten out of there away.
I don't read the Angel comics because I like the way that Angel ended.

And I agree with what happens in the alley, staying in the alley!
Click to expand...


Actually, they were rescued by a group of fighters consisting of Joe Dawson and several Immortals, and a band or assorted demons led by Willie the bartender (the demons were still evil, but they saw LA as their turf, and didn't want W&H horning in on them). Gunn, unfortunately, did die. Angel survived, and went to rejoin Nina, her sister, and niece, in Hawaii, where he lives happily to this day.


Spike and Illyria tracked down Buffy and Faith, and the four of them set up a freelance demon fighting unit, hiring out to assorted large corporations to fight demon terrorists. Their name: The Hellfighters. Their motto: "Around The Clock, Around The World."

Spike and his little harem have never been happier.

(I know, because that's the way I wrote it the summer after "Angel" was cancelled)
 
white avenger said:
Actually, they were rescued by a group of fighters consisting of Joe Dawson and several Immortals, and a band or assorted demons led by Willie the bartender (the demons were still evil, but they saw LA as their turf, and didn't want W&H horning in on them). Gunn, unfortunately, did die. Angel survived, and went to rejoin Nina, her sister, and niece, in Hawaii, where he lives happily to this day.


Spike and Illyria tracked down Buffy and Faith, and the four of them set up a freelance demon fighting unit, hiring out to assorted large corporations to fight demon terrorists. Their name: The Hellfighters. Their motto: "Around The Clock, Around The World."

Spike and his little harem have never been happier.

(I know, because that's the way I wrote it the summer after "Angel" was cancelled)
Click to expand...

I take back what I said. From now on, this is how I'll think of the ending.

My side hurts from laughing so hard.
 
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