What Happened To The Shanshu?

[white avenger]

Was the Shanshu, being magical in origin and operation, cancelled out when the crystal was destroyed at the end of Season 8? And, if so, is there any reason to assume that it will automatically reinstate with the creation of the new crystal in Season 9?

 

[Xin Rong]

Was the Shanshu, being magical in origin and operation, cancelled out when the crystal was destroyed at the end of Season 8? And, if so, is there any reason to assume that it will automatically reinstate with the creation of the new crystal in Season 9?

Are prophecies magic in origin?

Also, maybe the Shanshu has already failed, it could have been referring to the end of season 8 and the whole new universe thing... as that would definitely seem to resonate with the whole 'to live/to die' translation. Although, this definitely goes against what Wesley revealed to Angel in AtF, but then again can we trust that vision as it did come from the senior partners?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm not sure, I think it comes down to what being human means and what it is.

technically Angel has a human body and human soul, for the Shanshu to come to pass they just need to remove the demon, leaving him human.

I'd have thought with no magic that wouldn't be possible, unless the power to Shanshu is already within Angel just waiting to be activated, rather then an external force waiting to act upon him.

Ohhhh now that the rules of magic have changed, he could Shanshu, become human but still keep his strength, technically all magic is different now, so I assume that would have to effect the Shanshu in some way.

 

[white avenger]

Are prophecies magic in origin?

Probably not, though the method used in recognizing or predicting the events prophesied would be. Certainly the power that transforms a vampire into a normal human would involve some supernatural force. As has been pointed out, magic has been restored, but it isn't the same magic as before (maybe the equivalent of Coke vs Pepsi) so what was supposed to cause the Shanshu would be at different, if not eliminated altogether.

For example (though I'm not suggesting any of these alternatives specifically:

1) Angel would become human, but retain all of his vampiric powers.

2) He may become human by being literally reborn or reincarnated, thus having the opportunity to "start all over again," and live an entirely new life from infancy to old age with or without any knowledge of what his prior life and unlife had been.

3) It may be something like what the Powers did in previously, but instead of making a single day rerun, it could take him back to the moment just before he met Darla, and change everything from that point forward, making him Liam once more.

4) Or, my personal favorite, he wouldn't be a vampire anymore, he would become an immortal 4 armed monkey and be assigned to guard the Watchers' Library during Fray's time as Slayer.

(Just kidding on that last one, Bangels, put away the tar and feathers)

Point being, the Shanshu was supposed to be that a vampire would be of such a great service in an apocalypse that he would have his humanity restored, but that was under the old magical system. It might not exist at all under the new system, or might be significantly altered.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Point being, the Shanshu was supposed to be that a vampire would be of such a great service in an apocalypse that he would have his humanity restored, but that was under the old magical system. It might not exist at all under the new system, or might be significantly altered.

I'd say it definitely still exists. Magic has changged that much, like vampires still exist, and Willow is still a witch, but how it's processed and how it works seems to be different.

On the one hand I can definitely see them Shanshuing Angel and because magics different it's doesn't work out like it's supposed to - that is very very 'Whedon-y', on the other I think they like keeping the shanshu as an unobtainable end goal, so I dont think they'd use it.

 

[janas]

In the last Q&A with Scott Allie for Buffy Season 9 #25 on slay alive, was asked more or less the same question (see number 22 question)

edit:

Sorry, but I can't put the link, maybe it's considered spam?

 

[white avenger]

On the one hand I can definitely see them Shanshuing Angel and because magics different it's doesn't work out like it's supposed to - that is very very 'Whedon-y', on the other I think they like keeping the shanshu as an unobtainable end goal, so I dont think they'd use it.

That makes my four armed monkey suggestion definite possible. Or at least, not as outlandish as I thought that it would be. And you're right, Joss has just the sort of diabolical mind to come up with something even more off the wall than that.

 

[Xin Rong]

Probably not, though the method used in recognizing or predicting the events prophesied would be. Certainly the power that transforms a vampire into a normal human would involve some supernatural force. As has been pointed out, magic has been restored, but it isn't the same magic as before (maybe the equivalent of Coke vs Pepsi) so what was supposed to cause the Shanshu would be at different, if not eliminated altogether.

For example (though I'm not suggesting any of these alternatives specifically:

1) Angel would become human, but retain all of his vampiric powers.

2) He may become human by being literally reborn or reincarnated, thus having the opportunity to "start all over again," and live an entirely new life from infancy to old age with or without any knowledge of what his prior life and unlife had been.

3) It may be something like what the Powers did in previously, but instead of making a single day rerun, it could take him back to the moment just before he met Darla, and change everything from that point forward, making him Liam once more.

4) Or, my personal favorite, he wouldn't be a vampire anymore, he would become an immortal 4 armed monkey and be assigned to guard the Watchers' Library during Fray's time as Slayer.

(Just kidding on that last one, Bangels, put away the tar and feathers)

Point being, the Shanshu was supposed to be that a vampire would be of such a great service in an apocalypse that he would have his humanity restored, but that was under the old magical system. It might not exist at all under the new system, or might be significantly altered.

I like your theories, particularly the last one.

Personally, I just don't think it will ever happen, the whole notion of the Shanshu seems to be very anti-Whedon in my eyes... he is after all an existentialist, or at least in parts, so the whole Shanshu thing seems to anti-existentialist to me...

then again he did have Buffy go to heaven, which is also very anti-existentialist, even if he did have her ripped out of there by her friends.