What if Angel had found out about the AR?

[Tome]

Seriously, if Angel at one point or another had found out Spike had tried to rape Buffy, how would he have reacted? If it was before Spike came to L.A, would he have went there hunting him down? Would he have even worked with Spike in S5? I honestly just realized today that Angel never found that out. 😱

What do you think?

 

[NY State of Mind]

in the words of Marvel comics......HULK SMASH!!!!!

 

[Hale Caesar]

Angel would be keeping Spike in a bottle on top of his desk

 

[zobothehobo]

Before Beneath You:

He'd probably go to Sunnydale and confront Buffy. Buffy would be like "Angel... Spike's gone... don't..." Angel being his "I'm so big and blah blah blah" self would go looking for Spike. No doubt he'd yell at Buffy for being like "Spike's not here... I don't want to mess with it" and then take measures into his own hands and be all big and "grand gesture guy."

After Beneath You:

He'd probably go to Sunnydale and confront Buffy. Buffy would be like "Angel, he has a soul now." Angel would be all like "I don't care" and then be all big hypocrite about how much HE hurt Buffy when he was soulless and try and stake Spike for how he hurt Buffy when he was soulless.

 

[caritas08]

Geez, I don't know. Giles never found out either. I thought that whole thing was handled really poorly. To be honest I don't think any of the characters would have taken him back after that.

I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner because I personally think it was meant to be more of delusional Spike trying to recreate one of their many trysts together and ended up being an AR. I personally think he wouldn't have gone through with it if she hadn't stopped him but if the writers really meant for it to be a real AR then I think the whole thing sent a really bad message.

As far as Angel, I think he probably would have tried to stake him or at least send him away.

 

[Zeppo]

Or maybe a Falcon Punch?

Yeah, it would've been a lot to take. Your nemisis trying to take advantage of the love of your life in that way ... total Hulk Smash/Falcon Punch combo.

 

[ticonderouga]

I think that Angel might very well go after Spike, but I honestly don't think that Angel could beat Spike unless Spike let him win, or Spike was bug shagging crazy in some basement. Though after the AR Spike might very well have let Angel beat him.

 

[wickedtiger86]

I think if he'd learned about it pre-souled Spike, Angel probably would have taken him down. No question.

However, I like to think that Angel would give Spike a chance to redeem himself because of the soul. It's the generous thing to do. And I'd like to think Angel would do that, which is why I like the character of Angel. His total belief in redemption.

 

[prophecygrrl]

He'd be angry, no doubt. Probably angry enough to want to dust him. But on the other hand, I think Angel of all people knows what it means to not have a soul and that would definitely throw him for a loop, and in the end, I think he'd be respectful of how Buffy wanted to handle it. If she wanted to kill him, he'd be on board with it. And if she didn't, he'd have to accept that too.

 

[Scarlett Blade]

I think his first instinct would be to want to kill spike...but I would like to think that if Angel knew that Spike had his soul agian, Angel would stop to consider what he did as a unsouled vampire and not be so quick to judge spike.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

First of all. Angel knew what Faith had done to Buffy in season 3 when she was staying with him in Ats season 1. And Buffy told Angel what she'd done to her in season 4, as well. I know it isn't the same as the "AR." But, still. What did Angel do? Offer her sympathy, a place to hide out, protection. He saw himself in her. Wanted to help her find redemption.

Considering Spike didn't go through with the "AR," (a point that's sometimes under-discussed), maybe Angel would have shown Spike some of the same treatment? Picture it: when Faith hit her lowest point and was practically begging for Angel's help, he was ready to give it to her. The AR was Spike's lowest point, (in his opinion), and if he'd encountered Angel after that, I'm sure the scene wouldn't have been all that different. He'd have referred to himself as a monster in front of Angel, and he'd have been miserable. I'd like to think that Angel would have empathized with him openly, the way he did with Faith. Just a little.

 

[Marisa]

Angel would have a lot of nerve to talk. Angelus or not the things he did to Buffy were far worse and I think Spike would point that out. I honestly don't know what Angel would do and if he would fight Spike I assume yes but I mean maybe he would realize it wasn't his place he usually sees things better on his show.

 

[Kean]

If he found out immediately after it happened, I think he would have been enraged but at the same time, utterly devastated. Spike would be gone by the time he got to Sunnydale and what he would find is battered and bruised Buffy and a very fragile Scooby Gang. I think he'd be horrified to see how far it had come for Buffy. How detached he had become from her and her life, that all S6 could have happened and he didn't know living 2 hours away. I think he and Buffy would have a real heart to heart, he would absolutely say that he is going to kill Spike. He'd probably do his pacing-arms-flailing-this-emotion-is-too-big-for-my-body-thing, Buffy would say "It's over. He's gone". Angel would see it differently. I think then they would talk about the year gone by, Buffy's depression, her "relationship" with Spike, the self hatred, the violence...all of it. And Angel would tell Buffy about his year with Darla. Because they really went through the exact same thing, just a year apart. They'd understand each other better and I think they'd feel relief in a way. Buffy would send him away then, because she would need to put her family and life back to together, herself. He'd go away but I think they would be more in touch than they had been.

I think Angel would also have been making some inquiries as to where Spike was, because no matter what Buffy had said, Angel would still want to have a "conversation" with him. Of course, by the time he found him Spike would be all soulled up. Not knowing, Angel would still beat the crap out of him, but Dun Dun Dun, Spike tells Angel what he got his soul. Angel punches him one last time (For stealing his thunder 😛) and then Angel is going to need lots and lots of whiskey. Preferably Bushmills.

 

[white avenger]

Whether Angel found Spike before he got his soul or afterward wouldn't have mattered. If he had found him pre-soul, there would have been a fight, at which time Angel would have learned that Spike was a far better (or at least more confident) fighter than the last time that they had fought, and he just might have had his ass handed to him on a platter the way it happened later when they fought over the Cup Of Eternal Mountain Dew. Spike was going to get his soul by that time, and he would have been at least as determined to get it as he was to get the Cup. It would've been a bad fight, both men would have been pretty badly beaten up, but in the end, Angel wouldn't have been able to stop him.

If Angel had found Spike AFTER he got his soul, when he was still in his cellar dweller stage, he would definitely have staked him, or, possibly, reverted to his Angelus personality enough to engage in a lot of torture first. The fact that Spike would have been basically helpless by that time wouldn't have mattered a bit to him, nor would the fact that Spike had a soul by then, or even the free ticket for what he, himself, had been given in Season 3 for what he had been responsible for the year before. Angel doesn't give forgiveness nearly as readily as he accepts it. Just ask Wes.

If Angel DID stake Spike in that condition, with or without the torture, he would have been wise to hope and pray that Buffy never found out about it, or SHE would have handed him his ass on a platter. Buffy would be just as free with her forgiveness and sympathy, not to mention protection, for a vampire who tried to rape her as she would one who tried to destroy the world after terrorizing all of her friends and murdering the woman who her Watcher loved.

The bottom line is, if Angel had found out about what happened in "Seeing Red," and had tried to stick his nose into the affair, his ass would have ultimately wound up on a platter. Far better and less painful for him that he remained oblivious to the whole matter.

 

[Kean]

Whether Angel found Spike before he got his soul or afterward wouldn't have mattered. If he had found him pre-soul, there would have been a fight, at which time Angel would have learned that Spike was a far better (or at least more confident) fighter than the last time that they had fought, and he just might have had his ass handed to him on a platter the way it happened later when they fought over the Cup Of Eternal Mountain Dew. Spike was going to get his soul by that time, and he would have been at least as determined to get it as he was to get the Cup. It would've been a bad fight, both men would have been pretty badly beaten up, but in the end, Angel wouldn't have been able to stop him.

If Angel had found Spike AFTER he got his soul, when he was still in his cellar dweller stage, he would definitely have staked him, or, possibly, reverted to his Angelus personality enough to engage in a lot of torture first. The fact that Spike would have been basically helpless by that time wouldn't have mattered a bit to him, nor would the fact that Spike had a soul by then, or even the free ticket for what he, himself, had been given in Season 3 for what he had been responsible for the year before. Angel doesn't give forgiveness nearly as readily as he accepts it. Just ask Wes.

If Angel DID stake Spike in that condition, with or without the torture, he would have been wise to hope and pray that Buffy never found out about it, or SHE would have handed him his ass on a platter. Buffy would be just as free with her forgiveness and sympathy, not to mention protection, for a vampire who tried to rape her as she would one who tried to destroy the world after terrorizing all of her friends and murdering the woman who her Watcher loved.

The bottom line is, if Angel had found out about what happened in "Seeing Red," and had tried to stick his nose into the affair, his ass would have ultimately wound up on a platter. Far better and less painful for him that he remained oblivious to the whole matter.

Pfft! On platter? Pfft! 😛

I don't know who you are describing above, but he's not Angel. I fully expect Angel would have beaten Spike up, but he wouldn't have tortured him.

And if you want to know the measure of Angel's capacity to forgive, then I suggest you look at his treatment of Holtz when he returns with Connor. Or how he doesn't hold sleeping with Connor against Cordy. Or Connor plunging him to the bottom of the ocean. Or Faith torturing his team. Or Buffy sending him to Hell.

Angel's capacity to forgive is immense.

 

[Tome]

First of all. Angel knew what Faith had done to Buffy in season 3 when she was staying with him in Ats season 1. And Buffy told Angel what she'd done to her in season 4, as well. I know it isn't the same as the "AR." But, still. What did Angel do? Offer her sympathy, a place to hide out, protection. He saw himself in her. Wanted to help her find redemption.

Considering Spike didn't go through with the "AR," (a point that's sometimes under-discussed), maybe Angel would have shown Spike some of the same treatment? Picture it: when Faith hit her lowest point and was practically begging for Angel's help, he was ready to give it to her. The AR was Spike's lowest point, (in his opinion), and if he'd encountered Angel after that, I'm sure the scene wouldn't have been all that different. He'd have referred to himself as a monster in front of Angel, and he'd have been miserable. I'd like to think that Angel would have empathized with him openly, the way he did with Faith. Just a little.

I get what you're saying, but imo, Angel has much more compassion for Faith than Spike. I don't think he would have offered Spike sympathy at all. Even less considering it was about Buffy.

Now I can see Spike feeling terrible about it, but that wouldn't change much.

And if you want to know the measure of Angel's capacity to forgive, then I suggest you look at his treatment of Holtz when he returns with Connor. Or how he doesn't hold sleeping with Connor against Cordy. Or Connor plunging him to the bottom of the ocean. Or Faith torturing his team. Or Buffy sending him to Hell.

Angel's capacity to forgive is immense.

I agree with this, except that usually Angel forgives people who he's either close to or whom he wronged in the past(often as Angelus). I don't think Spike would enter in either of these categories.

 

[Kean]

I agree with this, except that usually Angel forgives people who he's either close to or whom he wronged in the past(often as Angelus). I don't think Spike would enter in either of these categories.

I think if Angel had walked into that bathroom whilst the AR was happening, he would have killed him. Much like what happened with Darla: she was threat to Buffy, but also the wider population, and he took her out. It wasn't a conscious decision but a reaction to an immediate threat.

If Angel had time to actually think about the situation, I really don't believe he would kill Spike. Regardless of the distaste at which they hold each other, there is something between them. Some bond that has stopped them both, even when the opportunity has presented itself, from killing each other.

 

[white avenger]

Pfft! On platter? Pfft! 😛



And if you want to know the measure of Angel's capacity to forgive, then I suggest you look at his treatment of Holtz when he returns with Connor. Or how he doesn't hold sleeping with Connor against Cordy. Or Connor plunging him to the bottom of the ocean. Or Faith torturing his team. Or Buffy sending him to Hell.

Angel's capacity to forgive is immense.

1) Connor still thought of Holtz, aot Angel, as his father at that time. Treating Holtz any other way would have only reenforced the lies that Holtz had been telling Connor about his real (monster) father all those years.

2) Does the term, "Connor, you're my son, and I love you. Now, GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE," sound like unquestioning forgiveness to you?

3) I'll give you Faith, but what red blooded vampire boy WOULDN'T forgive a girl that pretty, crying her eyes out, in the middle of a torrential downpour, for just about anything?

4) Since when did Buffy send Angel to hell? That was his own idea, remember? He signaled her with his eyes.

There was no forgiveness for Wes when he took Connor, even though, as far as he knew, Wes was acting, not only in Connor's, but in Angel's as well, best interests. Angel tried to destroy the world in Season 3, or just like Angel and Twilight in Season 8, for which Angel may be held responsible, but is still, apparently, going to be given the opportunity to atone to whatever degree possible. Angel was going to kill Wes there in the hospital. Not much chance for atonement there. Or Angel having Lindsey killed by Lorne in Season 5.

Angel's capacity for forgiveness IS immense. But it isn't consistent or indiscriminate.

 

[Kean]

Angel's capacity for forgiveness IS immense. But it isn't consistent or indiscriminate.

Name me a character in the verse whose is.

 

[caritas08]

I personally don't think anyone should be forgiven an AR or rape.

I guess my whole problem with this is....I don't see what happened in Seeing Red as an actual attempted rape. I have a very close friend who was almost date raped and the level of malice and intent is very different.

I think the whole thing was horrifically written but I saw it as Spike hoping that Buffy would give in after telling him she hated him etc. (like she had done many times before) and when she kicked him he realized that she really did mean what she said when she said they were over. I don't think he would have ever gone through with it. He stopped not because she was physically stronger but because he finally realized she didn't want him like that anymore.

That's why I think Buffy forgives him. She knew herself that Spike was just trying to recreate their sexual encounters (which had been violent many times) and didn't have the intent of actually raping her. Now I'm not saying that women who get in situations like this are to blame, or that Buffy herself is to blame, but I think she understood what is intentions actually were and where his confusion had come from. The other Scoobies (Dawn,Xander) never will but Buffy does because she and Spike are the only ones who knew the true nature and levels of their relationship.