What if Angel had found out about the AR?

Tome said:
What do you think?
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What a great thread idea! I've never thought about this.

I imagine Angel would have been very angry, and might have even gone after Spike.

Angel's capacity to forgive is immense.
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I agree with you, Kean. He does. I don't doubt that initially Angel would have gone after Spike if he'd heard about the AR - but I don't think he has the heart to kill Spike. As much as Angel rails on about how much he hates Spike, there is a connection there, a history - Angel loves Spike. I don't doubt this for second.
 
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Kean
Kean
I kinda love when we agree on things like this :)
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prophecygrrl
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S
StarSlayer
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Ok, I want to try to look at this as objectively as possible, using canonical examples.

1. Hurting, or trying to hurt Buffy, is not reason enough for Angel to try to fight and/or kill a person/vampire.

Example: Faith. When she comes back into his life on Ats, he is fully aware of what she's done to Buffy, and the fact that she could still prove to be a danger to Buffy. But neither caution nor vengeance is enough to inspire Angel to try to kill her. He helps her seek redemption.

Example: Darla, post resurrection. In Ats season 2, in the aftermath of Buffy season 1, Angel does not initially set out to kill Darla. And when he does want to, her sins against Buffy aren't at the forefront of his mind. When she becomes human again, he shows her forgiveness and tries to help her repent, as he does Faith.

So, as far as these women are concerned, Angel shows a pattern of holding himself back, then forgiving them and helping them to seek redemption, considering they are "human."

2. Both Darla and Faith have tried to kill Buffy, and/or to ruin her life. Angel forvies them. Spike's motives in the "AR" do not involve intent, as do Faith's and Darla's when they attempt to hurt/kill her, respectively.

If Angel can forgive Faith and Darla, why can't he forgive Spike?

They've all hurt Buffy. They've all hurt him too, at one point or another. Two are very attractive females. One is an old rival. If Angel can't forgive Spike, I'm forced to conclude that the reasoning has more to do with the aforementioned suggestions than with the nature of their particular "indiscretions" toward Buffy.
 
Kean said:
Name me a character in the verse whose is.
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That's my point. Angel ISN'T any different than any of the other characters, except Buffy, which is understandable, since it's her show, when it comes to vengeance. His reaction would have been just as impulsive as Xander's when he saw Spike and Anya together on the internet, Willow after Tara as shot, or Giles after Jenny was killed. Instant, blind, all consuming rage, followed by cold, destructive, fury. Rational thought completely gone. If he had confronted Spike at that moment, that's what Angel would have felt and that's what his initial reaction would have been. Certainly, after a little time, or maybe more than a little, he would have been able to recover from the initial shock and think rationally. (that's where the slow torture comes in) But at that first moment, and thereafter until he does finally stop, take stock of what he is actually doing, and recall some degree of self control, as far as Angel is concerned, Spike needs killing, and he's the one who needs to do it.

And that leads into the "ass on a platter" scenario.
 
C
caritas08
Do you think Spike sought to regain his soul over guilt over the "AR" or because he felt that it was truly his only shot at winning Buffy's love? Did he do it for redemption or to gain love? I'll have to think about it.
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
white avenger said:
That's my point. Angel ISN'T any different than any of the other characters, except Buffy, which is understandable, since it's her show, when it comes to vengeance. His reaction would have been just as impulsive as Xander's when he saw Spike and Anya together on the internet, Willow after Tara as shot, or Giles after Jenny was killed. Instant, blind, all consuming rage, followed by cold, destructive, fury. Rational thought completely gone. If he had confronted Spike at that moment, that's what Angel would have felt and that's what his initial reaction would have been. Certainly, after a little time, or maybe more than a little, he would have been able to recover from the initial shock and think rationally. (that's where the slow torture comes in) But at that first moment, and thereafter until he does finally stop, take stock of what he is actually doing, and recall some degree of self control, as far as Angel is concerned, Spike needs killing, and he's the one who needs to do it.
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And I said all of this already in this thread. If he had walked into that room as the AR was happening, he would have killed Spike. And I don't even know if he would have realised what he was doing.

If Spike was gone by the time he found out he still would have been angry, and most likely would still have beaten Spike up. But he would not have tortured him. He especially wouldn't have done it having spoken to Buffy. And definitely not after finding out about Spike's soul.

And the only time Spike took him in a fight was when all the fight had gone out of Angel (Destiny), don't be so sure about your "platter" theory. 😉
 
The torture and platter things were more or less jokes, as I'm sure you no doubt realize. But I think that it would have taken a much longer time for Angel to get control of himself than you apparently do. Plus, I'm working on the scenario that Angel would have confronted Spike pretty quickly after he found out what had happened, not after he had time to weigh the options and realize that, as much as he might still care about Buffy and what happened to her, he was pretty much, at least by that time, and by his own choice, out of her life.From that point on, it would be more of the grab Spike and take him back to face Buffy type of situation than any personal administering if either punishment or plain vengeance.

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

caritas08 agrees: Do you think Spike sought to regain his soul over guilt over the "AR" or because he felt that it was truly his only shot at winning Buffy's love? Did he do it for redemption or to gain love? I'll have to think about it.

I think that Spike's decision to get a soul wasn't anything similar to the spur of the moment thing as it was portrayed in season 6. Spike said that he "went in search of a legend," which would seem, to me at least, that he had been researching that particular legend, or more likely, ways to have his soul restored, and who possessed the power to perform the job without ant rules or conditions, the way Angel's soul worked, for some time. Maybe it started out as just idle curiosity, with its beginnings over a beer and a hand of kitten poker, but somebody mentioned it, and it aroused Spike's curiosity. Diligent research and a good bit of sheer luck later, he's got some very strong leads as to where to go, who to see, and what the price would be. "Seeing Red" was what actually caused Spike to set out on his quest, but he had almost certainly had the general plan worked out for some time.

(That's just my theory, and it really has nothing to do with this thread. I think that a good FF could come out of it though, assuming I or someone else would care to go to the trouble)
 
Well, I can say this without doubt: Angel may not have spiked Spike but Riley sure as shootin' would have!
 
white avenger said:
Riley might have tried, but even with the chip, Spike would have given him a wooden stake suppository.
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I disagree; not because Riley was mighty he-man or anything but Riley was the only one with, ya know, firearms. I would take a few well placed thirty-ought-sixes before having to get close enough to use fangs.
 
30-06 FMJ would zip right through spike with little or no major tissue damage, same with 7.62, 5.56. and 9MM. Military ammunition is made to wound, on the plan that one wounded man takes out at least, possibly 2, healthy combatants to take care of him. 12 gauge with OO buckshot would be better, but only very specialized units, like SEALS and Marine Force Recon use that anymore. If Riley wants to avoid the suppository-izing, he's gonna have to come up with something either HE or Incendiary, and even then, he's gonna have to deal with vampire speed and durability. That Initiative zap gun? It breaks down more than it works, and with Spike, there wouldn't be time for a second try.Maybe a Barnett .50 cal from 1000 yards would be his best bet, but then we're back to that FMJ thing again.

Explosives? Too risky, because anything powerful enough to take out a vampire who sees you coming, as opposed to a nest sleeping for the day (thought I'd forgotten about Riley and his little grenade, didn't you?), would have to have a time delay fuse with enough time to let him get out of the blast area. With that much time at his disposal, and vampiric speed, Spike would just catch the pineapple and toss it right back in Riley's lap. Rocket launcher? Same thing. Spike would see it coming and have plenty of time to dodge. Ambush with a flame thrower? Vampiric hearing and sense of smell would make that virtually impossible. Napalm? Same as the flame thrower. Is that everything? Well, ALMOST everything.

Does Riley have access to nuclear weapons? Nothing big, just a kiloton or so...
 
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caritas08
LOL!! Awesome post.
I
InsaneMystic
you just made my day. :D
white avenger said:
30-06 FMJ would zip right through spike with little or no major tissue damage, same with 7.62, 5.56. and 9MM. Military ammunition is made to wound, on the plan that one wounded man takes out at least, possibly 2, healthy combatants to take care of him. 12 gauge with OO buckshot would be better, but only very specialized units, like SEALS and Marine Force Recon use that anymore. If Riley wants to avoid the suppository-izing, he's gonna have to come up with something either HE or Incendiary, and even then, he's gonna have to deal with vampire speed and durability. That Initiative zap gun? It breaks down more than it works, and with Spike, there wouldn't be time for a second try.Maybe a Barnett .50 cal from 1000 yards would be his best bet, but then we're back to that FMJ thing again.

Explosives? Too risky, because anything powerful enough to take out a vampire who sees you coming, as opposed to a nest sleeping for the day (thought I'd forgotten about Riley and his little grenade, didn't you?), would have to have a time delay fuse with enough time to let him get out of the blast area. With that much time at his disposal, and vampiric speed, Spike would just catch the pineapple and toss it right back in Riley's lap. Rocket launcher? Same thing. Spike would see it coming and have plenty of time to dodge. Ambush with a flame thrower? Vampiric hearing and sense of smell would make that virtually impossible. Napalm? Same as the flame thrower. Is that everything? Well, ALMOST everything.

Does Riley have access to nuclear weapons? Nothing big, just a kiloton or so...
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Lmao! I used all my rep today, but I laughed my ass off at this post... Nice one!
 
If Angel wanted to completely beat the crap out of Spike after "biting" Cordelia in "You're Welcome," I think Angel would want to do the same to Spike (possibly more) if he found out about the AR.

But, if Angel got to the point where he had the chance to stake Spike, I don't know if he could go through with it. Sort of like how Spike couldn't stake Angel in "Destiny." Sure, they wouldn't want to hear Buffy bitch about it, but there's a lot more going on there!
 
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