Question What if Bangel don't end up together? What then?

[Kean]

I was kind of using the PTBs as shorthand for the same idea. A world that didn't need Buffy and Angel fighting would be a world in which they could be together. Angel might see that as a thumbs-up from the PTBs, Buffy might see it as a random stroke of fortune, but both are waiting (or hoping in vain) for the same thing.

Look at you posting twice in one week! 😛

"There's a reason I loved you from the moment I saw you..." speech in S8 #33, because it took away from the organic beginnings of their love.

Agreed. Also, I really loved the way you handled this in your fic (which I will respond to as soon as my thesis is handed in). It felt right to me. He just loved her; not necessarily in love with her until they met in Sunnydale. I find that a much more statisfying explanation; one that fits with how I see them, which is not as a Romeo & Juliet kind of couple.

Here's my question for Bangels: If Joss would resurrect Bangel as an "ordinary" romance (and of course there is no such thing when you're in love) that is no more special than Willow/?, Dawn/Xander, Riley/Sam, would you be okay with that? Or is the main draw of Bangel its being "fated"?

I have never believed that Buffy and Angel as a romantic couple were ever "fated". I believe they were supposed to be part of each other's lives and that their destiny as warriors for the side of good is intricately tied together. The fact that they were both "Called", for the lack of a better word, at the same time pretty much makes that clear.

In terms of them as a couple though "nobody saw them coming", Whistler said that to Buffy in S2 and Angel in S8. B/A wasn't a fated, in the stars kind of deal. Not for me anyway. So, what this run on sentence is trying to say is that I will take B/A anyway I can get them. I don't care if they are slaying the dragon or buying eggs at the shop; I want them to have the chance to be together.

However, I don't for a second believe that will happen. If it did though, I wouldn't be mad at it 😉

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Joan the Vampire Slayer
My question is; what if, in the end, the two don't end up together?

To me, crucial words are "in the end". After season 8 I have the impression that there is no end in the foreseeable future. I get the vibes of Buffyverse going on forever, like Superman or Batman. Season 9 hasn't even started, and DH has already announced season 10.

In any case, I think that Joss will never let Buffy be happy with anybody. If - a very big if - there will be an inequivocal ending of her journey - she'll die fighting. Till then, Joss will keep the proverbial carrot if front of both shipper groups, regularly causing fandom meltdowns.

Of course, there is a possibility that Joss will finally get tired of Buffy and will pass the franchise to Scott Allie. In that case, happy Bangel ending is quite possible, in "Scarlett" vein - in a story written by a guest writer.

 

[Dagenspear]

I disagree. In both these works and real life, someone can be truly in love, and just not have it work out for some reason or another.

Yes, but those situations ussually consist of events keeping two people apart (such as, for instance, Tara being shot). In the Bangel situation however, even though events have played a part, what mostly keeps Buffy and Angel away from eachother is... eachother. And the choices that THEY, in their relationship, and in their life made.

Love is not pain. Love is not heartache at every turn. Love is not leaving. Love is NOT in blood, it is does NOT burn and smolder until there's nothing left. It is not tragedy and horror, and death. It is NOT seeing someone's Vamp face and not even noticing. It is not not looking into the type future you could have with a Vampire.

Angel and Buffy were great together for what they were and at the time they were together. And while they'll always care for one another, and may even attempt to force another try with their relationship, it's not going to "work out." Because it can't. Because they don't truly love eachother. Because they've proven that time and time again by how their relationships have ended up. It can't work. And it won't. It's time to move on.

But that's not all they are. And the bottom line is that most Bangels feel that they have the possibility of overcoming that...someday.

If they haven't, then they most likely never really will.

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------

Agreed. Also, I really loved the way you handled this in your fic (which I will respond to as soon as my thesis is handed in). It felt right to me. He just loved her; not necessarily in love with her until they met in Sunnydale. I find that a much more statisfying explanation; one that fits with how I see them, which is not as a Romeo & Juliet kind of couple.

Too bad that's what they tend to come off as. That's one of the reasons why I can't and don't ship them.

 

[Reddygirl]

But Kean, Angel didn't really know Buffy when he saw her in LA. Yes, he got to peek into her window and see her interacting with her friends, parents and Watcher, but he never had a conversation with Buffy then, they never exchanged a word. He had no idea about what was in her head. So he was free to basically construct his fantasy image of Buffy. While I believe Angel fell in love with Buffy without knowing her, I don't think he loved her.

The great irony is that while most fans believe Buffy loved Spike, not everyone is sure she was "in" love with him.

Thanks for all the Bangels who responded to my question. While we sail on different ships I always admire your passion and loyalty to your preferred couple.

 

[Kairos]

Look at you posting twice in one week! 😛

Guerrilla posting; gotta keep the patterns unpredictable.

Agreed. Also, I really loved the way you handled this in your fic (which I will respond to as soon as my thesis is handed in). It felt right to me. He just loved her; not necessarily in love with her until they met in Sunnydale. I find that a much more statisfying explanation; one that fits with how I see them, which is not as a Romeo & Juliet kind of couple.

Thank you! That part ended up in there kind of randomly - I had been thinking about how the idea of "love at first sight" tends to be ridiculed, perhaps unfairly. I think good people can quickly sense each other and love the good they see in each other, and what Angel saw from the car actually could have been enough information to form a solid basis for his feelings.

 

[Dagenspear]

Thank you! That part ended up in there kind of randomly - I had been thinking about how the idea of "love at first sight" tends to be ridiculed, perhaps unfairly. I think good people can quickly sense each other and love the good they see in each other, and what Angel saw from the car actually could have been enough information to form a solid basis for his feelings.

You can't really be in love with someone if you don't know them.

 

[Kairos]

You can't really be in love with someone if you don't know them.

I'm a Christian. We're taught from the cradle to love everyone: neighbors, enemies, strangers, the whole package. Most of us can count on never attaining that level of serenity, but the command is there for a reason. Love is meant to be indiscriminate, shared with others because they're human, and not because we know them. An act of kindness toward a stranger is an act of love. So is adopting a child. So is fighting vampires to keep the streets safe at night, if you're in the right universe for it.

Some people find it easier to feel that love than others. Some people make it easier for others to feel it. An immortal bum who's never had a healthy relationship in his life isn't going to start right in with grand ideas of universal charity. That doesn't mean he's unable to recognize a pure heart in someone else, though, and when he does, it might just be what he needs to get knocked out of his stupor and remember (or learn) what love is. Finding someone who needs help and discovering the desire and potential within oneself to be there for her is by nature an act of love.

Angel didn't know Buffy's favorite movie or her worst memory or what she wanted to be when she grew up. He did know that she was a vulnerable young person about to be sent off to war. A few years worth of in-depth conversation might be a fair reason to fall in love with someone. Is it a better reason than a glimpse of her good and innocent heart? I say no. I say there isn't one.

Caritas and VisionGirl, thank you! I can't post links yet but if you'd like to see that story it's "Those We Wish Were Here With Us" at my LJ or FF.net, linked in my sig.

 

[InsaneMystic]

You can't really be in love with someone if you don't know them.

I'm forever fuzzy on the exact meaning of "being in love"... The expression it usually gets translated to in German is "in jemanden verliebt sein" (which I think seems closer in actual meaning to "having a crush on someone") - and I'd argue that's infinitely easier if you don't know someone, just have seen them from afar. The less knowledge, the more potential for romantic delusionary idealizing projection without risk of reality check.

I'm a Christian. We're taught from the cradle to love everyone: neighbors, enemies, strangers, the whole package. Most of us can count on never attaining that level of serenity, but the command is there for a reason. Love is meant to be indiscriminate, shared with others because they're human, and not because we know them. An act of kindness toward a stranger is an act of love. So is adopting a child. So is fighting vampires to keep the streets safe at night, if you're in the right universe for it.

Some people find it easier to feel that love than others. Some people make it easier for others to feel it. An immortal bum who's never had a healthy relationship in his life isn't going to start right in with grand ideas of universal charity. That doesn't mean he's unable to recognize a pure heart in someone else, though, and when he does, it might just be what he needs to get knocked out of his stupor and remember (or learn) what love is. Finding someone who needs help and discovering the desire and potential within oneself to be there for her is by nature an act of love.

That's very close to my idea of love, even though I've left the Christian fold quite some time ago. 😉
The "love everyone" idea, in fact, is what makes me opposed to all the romancey-soulmatey-monogamous stuff. (I guess this proves in itself that Christian morality is not the driving factor in my reasoning, eh? 😀)

As for the Bad Hair Dude though, I would most definitely sort his "love" for Buffy into the romancey delusion category and not in the universal spiritual one. 😛

 

[VisionGirl]

As for the Bad Hair Dude though, I would most definitely sort his "love" for Buffy into the romancey delusion category and not in the universal spiritual one. 😛

If you're referring to when he first sees her, then maybe. But if you're referring to his feelings toward her as a whole, then no, I disagree. Actually, I think both Spike & Angel saw something in her from the very beginning, something different. Yes I think they were attracted to her as a Slayer. I think vampires and Slayers share a lot in common- human bodies/appearances, human feelings, demon essence. But she was different, and they sensed that.

The biggest thing about Buffy for me (and a lot of our favorite characters in this 'verse) is what Spike says: that they try. It's not about being perfect (whether we're talking about love/romance or any aspect of life). It's about failing and flailing, and then getting back up. Spike & Angel especially knew that there wasn't much hope for them in that (even for Angel with a soul, since he hadn't done much with it before he met Buffy). Look at Kean's banner- that demonstrates what I'm talking about. 🙂

But, there are always times in life when it's hard to quantify or explain why we love someone else. Sometimes it's beyond words. Maybe it's just physical attraction or a chemical reaction (as Temperance Brennan would like to say 🙂), but sometimes it goes beyond that. It's a true "meeting of souls", however you want to define that.

 

[Dagenspear]

I'm a Christian. We're taught from the cradle to love everyone: neighbors, enemies, strangers, the whole package. Most of us can count on never attaining that level of serenity, but the command is there for a reason. Love is meant to be indiscriminate, shared with others because they're human, and not because we know them. An act of kindness toward a stranger is an act of love. So is adopting a child. So is fighting vampires to keep the streets safe at night, if you're in the right universe for it.

Some people find it easier to feel that love than others. Some people make it easier for others to feel it. An immortal bum who's never had a healthy relationship in his life isn't going to start right in with grand ideas of universal charity. That doesn't mean he's unable to recognize a pure heart in someone else, though, and when he does, it might just be what he needs to get knocked out of his stupor and remember (or learn) what love is. Finding someone who needs help and discovering the desire and potential within oneself to be there for her is by nature an act of love.

Angel didn't know Buffy's favorite movie or her worst memory or what she wanted to be when she grew up. He did know that she was a vulnerable young person about to be sent off to war. A few years worth of in-depth conversation might be a fair reason to fall in love with someone. Is it a better reason than a glimpse of her good and innocent heart? I say no. I say there isn't one.

Caritas and VisionGirl, thank you! I can't post links yet but if you'd like to see that story it's "Those We Wish Were Here With Us" at my LJ or FF.net, linked in my sig.

I think you confused loving for being IN love. Love everybody. Whatever. I can't say I do that. I prefer the simplicity of just not hating anyone. But loving someone isn't the same as being IN love.

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

I would also say to the post above mine that as long as Angel clings to notion that he'd been in love with Buffy the moment he saw her, then he could never really be IN love with her, because he still clings to the delusion of her, rather than her.

Also, I view being in love as being a specific set of things. It's a bit difficult to explain though from my perspective.

 

[VisionGirl]

I would also say to the post above mine that as long as Angel clings to notion that he'd been in love with Buffy the moment he saw her, then he could never really be IN love with her, because he still clings to the delusion of her, rather than her.

Also, I view being in love as being a specific set of things. It's a bit difficult to explain though from my perspective.

Right, and I disagree. Simply because I don't think that it's up to me to tell someone whether they are truly "in love" or not. I'm not in that person's head (or heart, or whatever). Of course these are characters we're talking about so we analyze them to death lol. So I'll just go with Joss' famous words: "Buffy loves Angel. He loves her. And I love Ho Hos".

 

[VisionGirl]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] agrees: To use that analogy, either Buffy and Angel see each other as a favorite food, or Joss has a romantic attatchment for a chocolate pastery. Either way, it's a frightening thought.

Or he's being a smart-ass, which is probably the most likely scenario.

 

[Kana]

Buffy and Angel in the future? I really want Angel to continue his journey sans Buffy. For me, he's always been a more interesting character without her. I don't mind the implication that there could be future for them but I really don't think they're there yet. I really don't believe in destiny as far as love is concerned and Buffy subverts fate all the time, which is kind of the point.

If they ended up together because of fate, I'd find it a huge insult to both characters. Angel's strongest when he determines his own fate and finds nobility in everyday acts of kindness and Buffy? Well she makes fate her b****! So if they end up together it has to be because they choose it not because they are chosen. Just my opinion but I can't stand the whole 'lover's destiny' crap!

 

[Dagenspear]

I agree in part to the post above mine.