What if?? "Becoming Pt. 2"

[Carrrrgh]

"WILLOW: Xander, go to Buffy. Tell her what we're doing. Maybe she can stall."

Now when Xander arrived out of nowhere to "go to Buffy" he didn't even tell her that Willow was trying the spell again. I seriously hated Xander so much at this moment I wished him dead in that season 2 finale fight. Now I'm glad he's alive lol he's ones of my fav characters but I didn't understand and still don't understand why he wouldn't tell her the truth. I think Buffy could have stalled and not had to "kill" Angel. True, if this were the case there wouldn't be nearly as much drama in the series.

I'm just curious, how do you guys think this would have changed things if Xander told her the truth about Willows spell??



"XANDER: Willow. . . she said to tell you. . .

BUFFY: Tell me what?

(He waits, decides.)

XANDER: . . . kick his ass."

>:-(

 

[WakingNightmare]

If Xander had told Buffy about Willow's spell, then I imagine Buffy would lose. She needed to kill Angelus but if she knew there was a chance of getting Angel back, she would've stalled or held back against him and there was no way in hell that she'd kill him, so eventually he would gain the upper hand and beat her.

 

[Lyri]

As much as I don't like what Xander did in that moment, I understand why he did it. Here was a guy who, even when he was evil and killed their friends, Buffy still loved, and Xander knew that, no matter what Angel/us did, Buffy would always love him, maybe to the point of distraction which might result in her own death. So, by not informing her of Willow's attempt at the spell, Xander was hoping to safe Buffy and get rid of Angel once and for all, making Buffy's life as the Slayer far less complicated. It was a crappy thing to do, but, as the only true human in the entire show, I can see what Xander thought it was his only option.

Saying that, I'm not sure if telling Buffy the truth would have had a different outcome. Look how long it took for Willow to cobble together that spell. How long would Buffy have had to hold Angelus off? There's no way he would have put up with that, and he would have probably found a way to either kill her, or, like he did in the episode, complete the ritual and release Acathla anyway.

If Xander had informed Buffy of what Willow was ATTEMPTING (and, really, no one knew if Willow was going to be able to pull it off) then Buffy would have gone into that fight distracted, maybe even pulling her punches because she knew she had a chance to get the real Angel back, and that might have gotten her killed.

 

[Ms.Trick]

I totally agree with WakingNightmare.
At that point, with Kendra dead, Willow in the coma, Giles kidnapped...Buffy was really, really ready to kill Angelus. I think her determination to destroy him was at its peak. Course she was ready before, but now that was it.
If Xander had said "Willow is going to try the spell again", Buffy would have fought Angelus holding back a bit in case the spell worked.
Not knowing she had a chance made her much more determinate.

Many people hate Xander for saying that and I just don't get it. I don't think he said that because he disliked Angel, I think he knew what would happened if Buffy had her hopes revived.

 

[The Unspoken]

I don't think playing 'what if' is really conducive here, what with the world at stake; Xander certainly didn't go over several different scenario's when lying and he didn't want to see Angel re-ensouled anyway. The better comparison would be that filling Buffy in would saddle her up with a handicap, or rather, the chance that a handicap could occur. The handicap being that Buffy would somehow be off her game.

Of course, I doubt that Xander's train of thought was (entirely) rational, but I don't think he'd value anything over Buffy's survival.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I thought about that many, many times.

Probably it wouldn't change a bit. It just wouldn't be as beautiful and emotional like it was.. we wouldn't realise how strong Buffy truly is.

Maybe she could've really stalled. If she knew what was Willow trying to do maybe she could've fight more, fight harder, fight longer..

That is one of two things I'll never forget Xander.

 

[Icarium]

Considering Angel pulled out the sword out of Acathla before Buffy could stall for time or do anything at all to stop him, I would say the point is monumentally moot.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

True. Angelus hadn't gotten to the sword yet when Buffy first got to the mansion if any stalling was going to be done then that would have been the time to do it. That is to say if Buffy had known ahead of time that Willow was attempting the curse again and had planned to stall.

 

[OhWow]

I was MAD pissed off at Xander for that. I think he did it because he is jealous and really protective of Buffy. He was always so mean to Buffy about Angel 🙁 Jerk.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think Xander may have had some ulterior motives as well. He does say in Passion, "I'm sorry, but let's not forget that I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon. So I think I deserve a little something for not saying "I told you so" long before now," which makes me suspect he wanted Angel out of the way anyhow. I don't think he cared that much about Buffy's fighting, I just think he didn't like Angel. And where does he get off thinking he deserves something for not saying I told you so? Doesn't Buffy already feel bad enough that she sort of caused Jenny's death?!

And it's that exact scene that makes me not really care about Xander. At all.

 

[brinkster130]

I don't think it would have changed this episode much. Buffy still would have had to kill Angel; I think in the end she still would have beat him.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think Xander may have has some ulterior motives as well. He does say in Passion, "I'm sorry, but let's not forget that I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon. So I think I deserve a little something for not saying "I told you so" long before now," which makes me suspect he wanted Angel out of the way anyhow. I don't think he cared that much about Buffy's fighting, I just think he didn't like Angel.

And it's that exact scene that makes me not really care about Xander.

Exactly. That was my thought too. Xander finally saw an opportunity to get rid of his rival at the Buffy love zone. He did this out of selfish reasons. That turned out to be good for Buffy. But at the end of the day, Xander wanted Angel out of the picture and Buffy's heart. I even dare to think that he was happy when Angel turned evil. Now Buffy wouldn't say anything if he wanted to bash Angel. He had an excuse for killing him.

 

[The Unspoken]

I think Xander may have had some ulterior motives as well. He does say in Passion, "I'm sorry, but let's not forget that I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon. So I think I deserve a little something for not saying "I told you so" long before now," which makes me suspect he wanted Angel out of the way anyhow. I don't think he cared that much about Buffy's fighting, I just think he didn't like Angel. And where does he get off thinking he deserves something for not saying I told you so? Doesn't Buffy already feel bad enough that she sort of caused Jenny's death?!

And it's that exact scene that makes me not really care about Xander. At all.

Kendra: Angel? But our priority is to stop Drusilla!
Xander: Angel's our friend! Except I don't like him.

Personally I'm more upset about the countless of people who died because Buffy didn't kill him in 'Innocence', but hey, that's just me.

Also, the idea that Xander lied in 'Becoming' to get Angel out of the way is all the more laughable considering he encouraged her to date Scott Hope (only months later) and Riley. His lie saved the world in 'Becoming', or at the very least increased the chances of the world being saved.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Kendra: Angel? But our priority is to stop Drusilla!
Xander: Angel's our friend! Except I don't like him.

Personally I'm more upset about the countless of people who died because Buffy didn't kill him in 'Innocence', but hey, that's just me.

Also, the idea that Xander lied in 'Becoming' to get Angel out of the way is all the more laughable considering he encouraged her to date Scott Hope (only months later) and Riley. His lie saved the world in 'Becoming', or at the very least increased the chances of the world being saved.

I think two things about Riley and Scott. First, I think Xander has already got over Buffy. He started showing interest in other girls. Willow, the girl he picked up in this car, even Cordelia still.

Secondly, notice how much more of supportive he becomes toward Buffy's boyfriends when they're human. He didn't like Angel as Buffy's lover, didn't like Spike as Buffy's lover. But did like Riley enough, and wasn't even a little jealous of him. We can go way back to his problem with vampires, that made him hate the fact Buffy is in love with them.

 

[Icarium]

Personally I'm more upset about the countless of people who died because Buffy didn't kill him in 'Innocence', but hey, that's just me.

And me.

Exactly. That was my thought too. Xander finally saw an opportunity to get rid of his rival at the Buffy love zone. He did this out of selfish reasons. That turned out to be good for Buffy. But at the end of the day, Xander wanted Angel out of the picture and Buffy's heart.

If Xander wanted that he would have been all "Come on, Buffy, kill the bastard!" immediately after Innocence and not make speeches like the one in Phases. Also, this would have been incredibly short-sighted of him because he couldn't have known that Buffy would ignore "the lie". The most likely consequence would have been Buffy ending up extremely pissed at him. It's not as if him and Angel were the only persons in the world that could be Buffy's boyfriends, so eliminating Angel while making Buffy hate him is actually counter-productive for whatever romantic plans Xander had regarding Buffy.

. First, I think Xander has already got over Buffy. He started showing interest in other girls. Willow, the girl he picked up in this car, even Cordelia still.

You do realise that Xander started dating Cordelia like half an year before Becoming? Well, if we count groping in closets as dating. 🙂

 

[Chosen Enemy]

If Xander wanted that he would have been all "Come on, Buffy, kill the bastard!" immediately after Innocence and not make speeches like the one in Phases. Also, this would have been incredibly short-sighted of him because he couldn't have known that Buffy would ignore "the lie". The most likely consequence would have been Buffy ending up extremely pissed at him. It's not as if him and Angel were the only persons in the world that could be Buffy's boyfriends, so eliminating Angel while making Buffy hate him is actually counter-productive for whatever romantic plans Xander had regarding Buffy.

He didn't think far ahead. I don't think he was thinking much when he lied to Buffy. It was more of an instinct. He just saw a chance for Buffy to take out Angel, and he pushed the button, pushed hard enough, without thinking what would Buffy actually do or say, to Angel, to him....
He wouldn't say to Buffy to kill Angel just like that. He wished for that though. But telling someone to kill their boyfriend is not a plain thing to say. He did want Angel out of the picture, no matter how it's done. He also believed Angel was bad for Buffy, even with a soul.

You do realise that Xander started dating Cordelia like half an year before Becoming? Well, if we count groping in closets as dating. 🙂

I count that as "has feelings for someone else who's not Buffy". I think he did have feelings for Cordy when they started making out in the closet and such. His mind was still with Buffy, but he started having feelings for Cordelia.

 

[Icarium]

He didn't think far ahead. I don't think he was thinking much when he lied to Buffy. It was more of an instinct. He just saw a chance for Buffy to take out Angel, and he pushed the button, pushed hard enough, without thinking what would Buffy actually do or say, to Angel, to him....

And didn't make a move for Buffy either in early S3 or early S4 because...? Seems so weird for me that a guy who at the time was shown to have feelings for Cordelia and some hints about him and Willow is assumed to care more about getting rid of Angel because of romantic reasons rather than the much more obvious and clear saving the world reasons. Why not claim that Xander left Oz escape in Beauty and the Beast so that Buffy would have to kill Oz and Xander would have Willow for himself? Makes about as much sense as the accusation of him wanting to get rid of Angel purely out of jealousy, IMO.

He wouldn't say to Buffy to kill Angel just like that. He wished for that though. But telling someone to kill their boyfriend is not a plain thing to say.

Yet it's okay for Buffy and Giles to tell Xander he should try to stake Vamp!Jesse? Everybody knew that Angel needed to be put down at that point. They didn't need to say it because Buffy knew it too. But they recognized how tough it was for her, so they didn't push. An argument can be made that this wasn't very nice of them and they most certainly should have pushed or called Kendra or tried to kill him without involving Buffy. But the point is at the time of Passion Buffy wanted Angel out of the picture too. Nobody knew his sole could be restored and Buffy was committed to killing him, at least in theory, for months until the disk with the curse was found. It's not as if Xander was all "Kill, Kill" and Buffy thought "No, there must be another way".

 

[Chosen Enemy]

And didn't make a move for Buffy either in early S3 or early S4 because...? Seems so weird for me that a guy who at the time was shown to have feelings for Cordelia and some hints about him and Willow is assumed to care more about getting rid of Angel because of romantic reasons rather than the much more obvious and clear saving the world reasons. Why not claim that Xander left Oz escape in Beauty and the Beast so that Buffy would have to kill Oz and Xander would have Willow for himself? Makes about as much sense as the accusation of him wanting to get rid of Angel purely out of jealousy, IMO.

Xander pretty much moved on. He was in another place at that time. He let Buffy go, even though he was still atracted to her. Also, Xander liked Oz. He DID NOT like Angel, from the beginning. And Oz was pretty much human, and wasn't evil. As I said, Xander always had hatred feelings for vampire boyfriends. Oz was his Buddy, not his rival. He wouldn't hurt him on purpose. Other than that, Xander IS sometimes selfish (who isn't?) and I'm sure he didn't stop for a second and started planning what he'd tell Buffy when she gets there. I think he might planned on telling her what Willow said, then rethought and told Buffy something else. It was pretty obvious in this scene, because he hesitated for a second before telling Buffy what he might have told her. He came up with another answer when Buffy asked, "tell me what?" so he wouldn't have to tell her that Angel might be saved if she doesn't kill him, because of Willow's spell. If Angel was cured on time because of the spell, before he turned Acthala on, Buffy wouldn't have to kill him at all. There was no reason for that. Xander wouldn't take that chance of Angel curing and back with Buffy, even if the world would be saved. He was only thinking, "I don't tell Buffy that there is a chance to cure Angel, she will kill him, and that's it! Buffy doesn't have to know!"

Everybody knew that Angel needed to be put down at that point. They didn't need to say it because Buffy knew it too. But they recognized how tough it was for her, so they didn't push. An argument can be made that this wasn't very nice of them and they most certainly should have pushed or called Kendra or tried to kill him without involving Buffy. But the point is at the time of Passion Buffy wanted Angel out of the picture too. Nobody knew his sole could be restored and Buffy was committed to killing him, at least in theory, for months until the disk with the curse was found. It's not as if Xander was all "Kill, Kill" and Buffy thought "No, there must be another way".

The difference is, Xander was thinking of himself, what HE wanted, not what's best for Buffy or the world. It was his own agenda. Buffy understood that Angel needed to die, she sacrificed him, for the world. Even when she found out about the the disk and what it said, she understood that if it doesn't work, she would have to kill him. And because she didn't know Willow wanted to try again, she was ready to kill Angel once and for all. AND even when he did get his soul back a second before she killed him, she killed him. She wasn't thinking of herself like Xander.

 

[Icarium]

The difference is, Xander was thinking of himself, what HE wanted, not what's best for Buffy or the world.

Says who? Joss himself said he didn't intend the scene to be read in that way:

"The Xander betrayal issue... hasn't come up with us, and here's why. Xander made a decision. Like a general going into battle, he had to keep Buffy's fighting spirit strong and he felt telling her the truth would blunt it. And Angel needed to be stopped. It was a tough decision, and an unpopular one, but I'm not sure it wasn't the right one. I'm on the fence, and that's what makes it FUN! So there."

Yes, it's what we see on the screen that matters, not the intention of the writer but still...

If Angel was cured on time because of the spell, before he turned Acthala on, Buffy wouldn't have to kill him at all. There was no reason for that.

The world ending if Buffy failed was very much a reason. Now, whether the ends justify the means is a different matter but it's not as if Angel's fate was the only thing to be decided that day. If Xander's lie could gave Buffy even one percent bigger chance of succeeding, I would say way to go Xander. Let's also not forget that Xander very much doubted a hospitalized Willow could pull off the spell. Giving false hope to Buffy had many negatives. I can totally see Xander (or Giles, or Wesley) making that call, even if they liked Angel. Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Says who? Joss himself said he didn't intend the scene to be read in that way:

"The Xander betrayal issue... hasn't come up with us, and here's why. Xander made a decision. Like a general going into battle, he had to keep Buffy's fighting spirit strong and he felt telling her the truth would blunt it. And Angel needed to be stopped. It was a tough decision, and an unpopular one, but I'm not sure it wasn't the right one. I'm on the fence, and that's what makes it FUN! So there."

Yes, it's what we see on the screen that matters, not the intention of the writer but still...



The world ending if Buffy failed was very much a reason. Now, whether the ends justify the means is a different matter but it's not as if Angel's fate was the only thing to be decided that day. If Xander's lie could gave Buffy even one percent bigger chance of succeeding, I would say way to go Xander. Let's also not forget that Xander very much doubted a hospitalized Willow could pull off the spell. Giving false hope to Buffy had many negatives. I can totally see Xander (or Giles, or Wesley) making that call, even if they liked Angel. Sometimes the ends do justify the means.

Buffy would have stalled Angel if she knew there was a chance of bringing him back. She did still love him, then why wouldn't she give that small chance of her lover to return if she knew it was possible? If it was too late, okay sure. But I'm sure that if she knew what Willow was doing, and the world still hadn't started sucking into hell, she wouldn't have killed him so fast, but stall. Xander knew that. That's why he didn't want to take risk that that would happen.
Xander's hesitation when he told Buffy the lie, says a lot, that he meant to tell her the truth, then he stopped, rethought, and decided "for some reason" not to tell Buffy. And the reason of why he rethought it, is what I said above.