What If: Riley did stake Spike?

Actually yeah you have a point there. Wolfram & Hart intentionally made Angel their new CEO for a reason. Rather they knew about Spike or not can be debated but it makes sense to assume they knew there was the chance Angel would be the one wearing the amulet and had a way to bring him back from that sacrifice.

It could well be that W&H did know about Spike, and knew if Angel turned up with the amulet, Spike would volunteer to wear it, just so that Angel did not, in the belief that whoever wore it would have a better chance of getting Buffy. In other words, W&H may have completely played Spike, using his desire to get laid to weaponise him against the First. They are certainly manipulators enough to manage that. They are also manipulators enough to have a fallback plan to recover Angel if Spike did not volunteer. Like, say, because he discovered the amulet's wearer would blow up.
 
Half of the Scoobies probably would have been ridiculously concerned about Riley going off the deep end and killing a fangless vampire the other half would be relieved. He didn’t really do anything in The Gift and Angel could have taken his place during Chosen. The only question is what does Buffy’s self harm storyline from season six now look like?

Side note, it was a ridiculous scene stake him or stay home.
 
Riley used a fake plastic stake on Spike, however what if he did really stake Spike?

JM at the time said it was basically a fake out done by Joss deliberately. He put out a rumour that JM was leaving to do a Shamalyan film. There was even leaked spoiler description of Buffy viewing the dust be blown away by the wind !!!

JM tried to make it sound cool and funny but he must've realised Joss was mocking him as much as anyone.
But yeah that's the reason for the scene nothing more.
 
JM tried to make it sound cool and funny but he must've realised Joss was mocking him as much as anyone.
But yeah that's the reason for the scene nothing more.

The more time passes the more people should realize that Joss didn't respect anyone; he held contempt for the networks, many of his fellow writers, a lot of the actors and above all the audience.
 
JM at the time said it was basically a fake out done by Joss deliberately. He put out a rumour that JM was leaving to do a Shamalyan film. There was even leaked spoiler description of Buffy viewing the dust be blown away by the wind !!!

JM tried to make it sound cool and funny but he must've realised Joss was mocking him as much as anyone.
But yeah that's the reason for the scene nothing more.

But what do you think would have happened if Spike was really staked by Riley? Were discussing the hypotheticals rather than any script or backstage stuff
 
Would anyone have even noticed? Would anyone have even cared? Hiding the body of a staked vampire is hardly difficult, and dust in a dusty crypt is nothing unusual. For all anyone else knows, Spike could have decided to move on somewhere to try and get the chip removed. He didn't mean anything to anyone and it's not like he wasn't still a threat to them, even with the chip, as he had already amply proven in S4 and S5.
 
But what do you think would have happened if Spike was really staked by Riley? Were discussing the hypotheticals rather than any script or backstage stuff

Hypothetical ok All Riley has to say was I caught him sniffing Buffys sweater. Nuff said, whose gonna care if he's staked
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Would anyone have even noticed? Would anyone have even cared? Hiding the body of a staked vampire is hardly difficult, and dust in a dusty crypt is nothing unusual. For all anyone else knows, Spike could have decided to move on somewhere to try and get the chip removed. He didn't mean anything to anyone and it's not like he wasn't still a threat to them, even with the chip, as he had already amply proven in S4 and S5.
I still don't understand why Buffy nor Riley nor the Initiative did nothing after Out of My Mind. Its literally just forgotten about. Spike isn't even bothered when they burst in Episode 9. The writers didn't even try to adress it
 
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Oh, well, Ghost Spike could make a series of guest appearances on other WB shows. Like, he advises Pacey to shag Joey, or tells Lucy that Mary's a twat. It would end with him being summoned to appear on Charmed, who are able to send him back to Buffy.
 
It would have really changed the vibe of the later seasons. With Spike gone, this would have led to a few different possible plots that I think would probably have all sucked in different ways:

  • Briley becoming the endgame ship - I don't think I need to explain why this is bad. Riley is so whiny and insecure about the fact that Buffy is stronger than him and keeping him around permanently would really have undermined the show's "girlpower" message (not that existing canon doesn't, but that's a different topic entirely). Keeping Buffy with a boyfriend who takes out his insecurities on her and secretly resents her strength would be such an unsatisfying ending for her.
  • We introduce a new love interest for Buffy - considering how every long-term relationship Buffy has in the show feels kind of like a narrative replacement for Angel, this would probably be a weak writing decision only beaten in terms of annoying-ness by keeping Riley around. Riley and Spike both reheat the format of "Buffy's older, experienced boyfriend who helps her fight monsters," with Spike also being compared to Angel due to being a vampire. And Spike is a very inconsistent character especially during the Spuffy arc, but at least Spike is a returning character and kinda sorta feels like picking up an existing plot thread rather than just sticking in a new character who isn't that original (I like Spike more than Angel as a character, but as far as writing quality he often comes across as "Angel but worse," and having a new character that no one is attached to fill that slot would be so incredibly boring).
    • The only way I could see this not being terrible is if perhaps Robin was introduced earlier and we draw out the will-they-won't-they more... maybe we bring up the fact that the high school is in the process of being rebuilt in season six, which Xander has canonically been contributing to? Having Robin around earlier would let him be developed more; Spike being gone would drastically change how Robin's arc is written, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, since the writers try so hard to justify Spike's behavior that it makes Robin seem petty when in reality his hatred of Spike is incredibly reasonable. I would also still end the show with Robin/Faith rather than Robin/Buffy because I think Buffy ending the show single is important to the themes, and I also think that showing Robin as more of a serious possibility for a Buffy love interest before having that relationship end amicably without doing a love triangle/serious conflict with Faith about it would be a really interesting and mature direction for the show to go. We've already done the love triangle thing, and moving on from that would be a good narrative way of communicating that Buffy has a more mature understanding of how to deal with relationship drama.
  • We bring Spike back to life - it wouldn't be the first resurrection in the show, so at least it wouldn't be out of nowhere, I guess. This could be either really good or really bad, depending, but considering how everything after season five seems like the writers were drawing ideas out of a hat in a random order, I lean towards thinking this would be really bad. Either they bring him back with a soul, which could be good if it was a serious arc but would actually probably have been used as a cheap plot device to sidestep character development and make him a good-ish (he's still Spike) person for Buffy to date immediately, or they bring him back soulless and everything kind of happens the way it already does, which makes killing him off and bringing him back completely pointless in the first place.
  • This adds to the tension between Buffy and Riley because, while Buffy does hate Spike, she disagrees with how Riley went about this, and this contributes to the Briley breakup before letting Buffy be single for the rest of the show - probably the most unlikely option on the list, because I really can't see them letting her go that long without a love interest, but it definitely would have been an interesting take! They break up, she gets busy fighting Glory, dies, comes back wrong, and then where does she go from there? She has to do a lot more introspection about how to find meaning in her life--her life, not her-and-her-boyfriend's life. This would have let them focus more on her friendships with the Scoobies and on the new status quo in the Summers' household, which would have been a much stronger way of showing Buffy's steps into adulthood. But this is highly unlikely, and it also means they probably would have ended the show with an even stronger implication that she will definitely get back together with Angel. Aside from my own dislike for that relationship, I like the ambiguity of him saying he can literally wait forever in response to her saying she's not done baking yet and doesn't know who she is going to be or who that will be with, and having that scene while there are no other current options presented to the audience for who she could end up with would make it a little too "they're soulmates" for me. I like that the show doesn't end with Buffy making a firm decision, and were there no other love interests on the table, the show would almost certainly have ended with her choosing Angel (or at least with the writers heavily winking at the audience to say that she will choose Angel without having Buffy herself say it directly).

I have very mixed opinions on this scene; I don't think it makes sense for Riley to do a fake-out staking in the first place, but there's something really interesting to me about showing him being this calculated and sadistic towards Spike. Buffy's current love interest, a character who is introduced in such a way that he is clearly meant to be cool and sympathetic, takes the time to plan out a way of committing an act of violence with the intention of making Spike believe he is actually going to be killed? By the time this happens, we are building up more and more the fact that Riley does not make great choices and seems to think he is right about everything, but this is a really bold step from a writing perspective. It is, I will be the first to admit, very stupid. But it also takes a character who was at most annoying at first and has him show murderous intent towards a fan-favorite character, which makes it pretty clear that the writers no longer care that much about trying to convince us to like Riley. And I don't know that there's a specific moment where he starts to become this person... it would be pretty easy to argue that this side of him was always there. So while I think the plastic stake is a really stupid concept, I like what it shows us about Riley as a character, and I think it's just weird enough that him staking Spike for real wouldn't necessarily get the same point across.

And overall I'm glad they didn't choose to kill Spike here. My serious reasons are listed above and my lighthearted reason is just that I like him (or at least like him too much to kill him here; I think there are several points in season six where I think killing him off and then bringing him back in season seven could possibly work; although, as established, I think that the writers would have used this to avoid giving him character development rather than adding to it and am glad they didn't do that).
 
Half of the Scoobies probably would have been ridiculously concerned about Riley going off the deep end and killing a fangless vampire the other half would be relieved. He didn’t really do anything in The Gift and Angel could have taken his place during Chosen.
Would they really have been concerned?

Xander hates Spike, Anya is indifferent to him, Giles barely tolerates him, Willow might be sad about it for all of 5 minutes and Buffy couldn't care less. Staking a vampire who's given them nothing but trouble and tried to kill them repeatedly wouldn't worry the Scoobies too much.

The only question is what does Buffy’s self harm storyline from season six now look like?

First off, it was deeply stupid to decide for Buffy to have a "love interest" in s6, especially given the storyline. An alternative I've mentioned prior - is Buffy becoming a bit more like Wishverse Buffy. And she becomes really reckless when it comes to slaying - taking on more vamps and demons that she can handle, going out on her own etc.

Something like that would've sufficed. I imagine SMG (and James) would've preferred it.
 
Riley used a fake plastic stake on Spike, however what if he did really stake Spike?
In-Universe - pretty much nothing.

S5's main story arc would not have changed at all. Joyce and Dawn would have hidden out with Angel and Co and we would have seen some cool cross-overs. Anya would have taken over Spike's "truth" teller role. Some of the side quests would have been different but Whedon and Co would handle them with their normal mix of humor and angst and adventerous daring-do.

Out-of-Universe -
The Spike stans would mutiny at the "murder" of their hero by that coward Riley Finn. There would be a huge push to "bring back Spike" and chaos would ensue. And then, like every other TV kerfluffle, the show would move on. And so would the Spike stans.

I have no idea how many people would stop watching. Probably a lot less than the 'stans expect, but, hopefully, not more than the show could survive.

And this concludes my TED talk.
 
I have no idea how many people would stop watching. Probably a lot less than the 'stans expect, but, hopefully, not more than the show could survive.

I think the loss would have been fairly minimal and significantly less than were lost due to season six. Interestingly, that means that getting rid of Spike would probably have helped, rather than harmed, the show in the long run.

I would still prefer Spike be kept alive and run out of Sunnydale as he should have been at the end of season 4.
 
Angel could've done those things; he's saved the world before and we'd all know that Buffy meant what she said when she said she loved him. The scene would've shown her growth from watching him die at the end of S2 and she could truly move on from him and start a new life.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Even Spike knew that Buffy was lying when she said she loved him.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Sure, but still Team Spike here, lol.
N
NoShip
And it is always good to have Team Spike in the House. 😃
I think the loss would have been fairly minimal and significantly less than were lost due to season six. Interestingly, that means that getting rid of Spike would probably have helped, rather than harmed, the show in the long run.
I think Noxon was so into showing much more explicit sex that we would have gotten something similar to Buffy and Spike for at least some of S6. However, without naked Marsters prancing around, I doubt that storyline would have lasted more than one or two ep's. And, SMG would have been more amenable to signing up for S8. Also, we would not have had the rediculous unending overfocus on Spike's redemption that we got in S7.
 
I think Noxon was so into showing much more explicit sex that we would have gotten something similar to Buffy and Spike for at least some of S6. However, without naked Marsters prancing around, I doubt that storyline would have lasted more than one or two ep's. And, SMG would have been more amenable to signing up for S8. Also, we would not have had the rediculous unending overfocus on Spike's redemption that we got in S7.
Correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is one of the writers (can't remember who) wanted it to be a 'one and done'? Buffy has sex with Spike, but immediately regrets it and they're never together again.

Seems MN was lucky the series was shifted over to UPN, who hadn't really established any standards. S6 has been referred to as 'fan fiction' - and I have to agree.
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Angel could've done those things; he's saved the world before and we'd all know that Buffy meant what she said when she said she loved him. The scene would've shown her growth from watching him die at the end of S2 and she could truly move on from him and start a new life.
Even Faith could've volunteered to wear the amulet if they wanted to continue with Buffy sending Angel away to protect him/set up a second front.

She wouldn't have to die, but cause enough damage and then escape.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Or we could've had Ghost-Faith in Angel S5!
Angel could've done those things; he's saved the world before and we'd all know that Buffy meant what she said when she said she loved him. The scene would've shown her growth from watching him die at the end of S2 and she could truly move on from him and start a new life.

You know, the fact that Buffy was willing to let Spike head into danger but sent Angel away to safety shows more than anything just which one she actually loved. Then, when she tells Spike she "loves" him, he tells her she doesn't and she doesn't even bother attempting to deny it; if you do love someone, you would have protested at least a little. Both admitted she was merely being nice to someone dying. Finally, when Spike comes back from the dead, Buffy's reaction to discovering that her "love" is back from the dead... is to completely ignore it. Never mind coming to see him, she didn't even bother to phone him.

I think Noxon was so into showing much more explicit sex that we would have gotten something similar to Buffy and Spike for at least some of S6. However, without naked Marsters prancing around, I doubt that storyline would have lasted more than one or two ep's. And, SMG would have been more amenable to signing up for S8. Also, we would not have had the rediculous unending overfocus on Spike's redemption that we got in S7.

Especially as this would have required dragging in someone new just for Buffy to have sex with. Although it was probably less about the sex and more about Noxon wanting to see JM without clothes.

S6 has been referred to as 'fan fiction' - and I have to agree.

Honestly, that actually insults quite a lot of fan fiction. 😀
 
You know, the fact that Buffy was willing to let Spike head into danger but sent Angel away to safety shows more than anything just which one she actually loved. Then, when she tells Spike she "loves" him, he tells her she doesn't and she doesn't even bother attempting to deny it; if you do love someone, you would have protested at least a little. Both admitted she was merely being nice to someone dying. Finally, when Spike comes back from the dead, Buffy's reaction to discovering that her "love" is back from the dead... is to completely ignore it. Never mind coming to see him, she didn't even bother to phone him.

A random thought about this popped into my head recently.

Buffy after Angel dies:
25-years-ago-today-becoming-part-2-aired-v0-nbvqhicvmv0b1.jpg



And Buffy after Spike dies:
860f3b038cd975c7b5157adead866fb6.gif




Especially as this would have required dragging in someone new just for Buffy to have sex with. Although it was probably less about the sex and more about Noxon wanting to see JM without clothes.
Have you seen the dailies? Fan fic come to life..


Honestly, that actually insults quite a lot of fan fiction. 😀
Sorry! 😂
 
A random thought about this popped into my head recently.

Buffy after Angel dies:
25-years-ago-today-becoming-part-2-aired-v0-nbvqhicvmv0b1.jpg



And Buffy after Spike dies:
860f3b038cd975c7b5157adead866fb6.gif

No running away from her life and changing her identity when Spike died either. And her reaction to Angel coming back to life was... well, it was there for a start.

It's almost as if Buffy really didn't care at all about Spike... 😀
 
hoponlilmama
hoponlilmama
Say it isn't so! ;)
No running away from her life and changing her identity when Spike died either.
Running away from everyone and everything isn't exactly a mature response, though... which is fitting, since she was seventeen then, and is twenty-two when the series ends. Her response should look different for different relationships and at different points in her life. I don't think it's fair to say that she never cared about Spike at all just because she didn't react as strongly as she did when Angel died; they're different situations entirely.

Also, Buffy didn't have to personally be the one to stab Spike. She stood by while he sacrificed himself, and after everything she has been through, I'm able to believe that Buffy can make peace with the fact that people are going to die and she can't always change that. She quite famously suffered a lot because her friends couldn't accept it when it was her turn to die for the greater good. With Angel it was different, because right up until the end she had hoped they could save him, and then when it became clear that she couldn't, she had to kill him herself. That would be a completely different kind of traumatic experience. And she was only seventeen.
 
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