What is a Soul?

G

Girl with Sword

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It seems like it's a concience on Buffy. Vampires have pretty much the same personality as they did when they were human. William was still an insecure Mama's boy after he was turned, Drusilla was the same amount of crazy, they just got a lot more sadistic. But the gang talks about a soul like it's what makes a person, like it's what holds their personalities. They always differantiate between Angel and Angelous, like they're two diffrent people. But going by canon(or at least what canon seems to say in most cases), Angelous is just Angel without a concience. Discuss.
 
I agree.. It seems like it's concience in the Buffyverse, but in my own words:

A soul is who you are. It's the essens of you.
Your body will age, and eventually die, but your sould will never age, and it is forever. Your soul is so far kept in your body, and when you die, you will move on to another place
 
First of all, I think the definition of a soul changed during the course of the series. In the very beginning we have Giles saying about Jesse that everything he was is gone, and I believe Buffy gives Ford a similar speech in Lie To Me. But as the series progressed they seemed to change what a vampire is to (slightly inconsistent perhaps, but much more interesting, imo) a creature with many of the same character traits as the human that came before it, but without a proper moral compass (or a care for it).

As for Angelus being so much different than Angel (as opposed to the not so huge difference between Spike with and without a soul); I read a theory on here a while ago, in which the poster argued that Angel(us) is in fact suffering from a split personality disorder caused by the trauma of having a soul forced upon him (whereas Spike sought his out and was "“ more or less "“ mentally prepared for it). It makes a lot of sense to me "“ and again, it's so much more interesting to think of that way, as two sides of his personality, rather than as two separate entities.

Dunno, how much of the above makes sense. My mind is a little fuzzy today. I'm sure someone will come along and be a lot more eloquent. 🙂
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Edit:
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Also, there are some interesting thoughts and ideas about the nature of the soul in this thread, if it should interest anyone: https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=37747&
 
B
Blair Waldorf-Bass
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I quite agree with you there, that soul in way serves as a device for creating a split personality among the vampires. It seems to be some sort of a moral ground which a vampire cannot surpass. I mean, like human beings normally are supposed to have a soul, but not all of them act accordingly. Vampries seem to be bound to their soul, if they have one.
 
I think the writers never really fleshed out the mythology of vampires in their universe, as well as decide what other things meant, like soul. In most cases a soul IS a person, but in Buffy it seems to a conscience. I always assumed a vampire was just a demon inhabiting a corpse, because in a few instances the show makes it seem like a vampire is NOT the person who was bitten, just a demon that basically takes on the former occupant's personality (but perverts it). Or that's what I always got from it, at least.
 
I think you need to look more into what it means to not have a soul before you tackle trying to figure out what a Vampire with a soul is.

Take Warren for example he had a soul and did a lot of terrible stuff. I think it's more or less in the case of a Vampire having a soul every bad and evil thing they've done haunts them. However, when they're a Vamp that sense of remorce is gone.
 
A soul is you. Everything you feel, see, touch, learn. That's all you. So that means, even with a soul, you can be an evil person.

When a vampire takes over. It is NOT you. It's a demon that takes over your body and inherits your memories. It is NOT you.

So if the Buffyverse was real, and you get turned into a vampire, YOU will be in the afterlife, while your body is running around with a demon in it. Get it?

Angel and Angelus are two different entities. Except they shared the same body at different times.
Angel remembers everything that Angelus did because he inherited all of Angelus' memories when his soul overtook the demon. And when the demon comes back when the curse is broken, Angelus inherits all of Angel's memories again.

I hope that makes sense.
 
Well as far as Angel/Angelus goes... Liam was pretty worthless as human beings go, so I'd say human Liam had pretty much zero in common with Angel... it would be much more plausible to say that Liam could have one gone on to be like Angelus. Quite frankly the Angel/Agelus divide has always really bugged me... Angel seems to be the only vamp in the 'verse with a divide this extreme so that it gives him an excuse to not be held at all accountable for ANYTHING that "Angelus" does. All of the other vamps, with soul (Spike, Darla) or without, withheld a far more steady personality from their human time to demon time than Angel did, so I don't really know what to make of it, or what the rules are supposed to be exactly. It could be said that Dru changed drastically human to demon, except Angelus did make her insane before turning her. Spike "tried" to be more of a badass yeah, but he always did retain alot of William. Its hard to tell with darla cause we never saw a whole lot of her pre-vamp except lying in a bed dying of syphillis, but we do know she was a very misguided prostitute and not a saint by any means. Harmony changed not at all. So what is a soul? I do believe it really is just another word for a conscience as far as the 'verse is concerned... the part of them that makes them realize that murder is wrong and causes them to feel remorse for it.
 
ItMustBeBunnies
ItMustBeBunnies
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I think a soul is your personal ability to make decisions as well as a being aware of those decisions ramifications.
Yet, a soul also is a thing that defies logic,thinking, and the sum of your past experiences; it is part emotion too. It allows us to either forgive or hold a grudge, love or hate, be loyal or traitorous, have empathy or not give a damn. It is part intelligence and part emotion, a bit of self awareness with a pinch of irrationality.(For me at least)
I also think its eternal, but that does not really play a part in this discussion.

I think vampires have soul as well, but when Giles or Buffy say they do not earlier in the season it is because the intelligence side of it is so foreign and the emotional aspect of it is so undesirable/evil/taboo that it does not register to them that as recognizable by what they would call a soul. That said, I don't think all vampires are the same when it comes to their soul/personality. I'm sure they differ just like us.

Remember that one vampire that Buffy first thought was the anointed one, the religious zealot? When he rose as a vamp he gave me the heavens warrior vibe- though very confused, the poor vamp didn't even know why a crucifix hurt it! This stuck in my mind and helped form what I think about buffyverse vamps. Who the human was prior to the formation of the hybrid plays a very big part, imho, at least as long as the human soul was well defined and the hybrid is not left with a blank slate as far as memories go. (in fact maybe that is why the master chose a child for the real anointed one, less world experience, fresh cookie dough that has not been shaped by all that much yet. It would allow the demon side of the hybrid a more undiluted/noninfluenced personality.)

When the vampire moves into the host and expels it soul there is still memory of the host left, which helped define that prior soul. I believe it also helps define the hybrid, and the strength of the influence depends upon the strength of the personality/soul of the victim as well as what kind of personality/soul inhabits it.

In the case of Harmony you get a harmonious exchange and she isn't really all that different than pre turned Harmony.

With the Spike hybrid you have a passionate but shy William and a passionate and boisterous Spike. William loves art and beauty...in short he just loves, love. Spike loves to fight and win/kill, feeding isn't even all that important...like the slayer in 79 when he broke her neck on the subway. Both know what it means to have a passion for something

When the chip was introduced to the hybrid it denied Spike his passion for hunting and fighting and he had to look toward other outlets, mainly Buffy. I believe he turned toward love because ultimately that is what William so craved and appreciated and it left it's mark on Spike.

With Angelus...well he seems an exception. You have two very different sides, and this Lliam fellow who I don't know jack about...is that Angel' mortal name? As was posted before you have three personalities forged by a shared experience, all very different from one another.

I'm not saying this is canon or anything, it's just my opinion on it.
 
Airam
Airam
Yeah, Liam was Angel's human name.
:smiliehom::bbat:::lmao::drunk::iamwithst

I mock you post merging gods, my power defies you.

Sadly i can't sneak in an edit after time elapses by way of merge edit, though. 🙁
 
Well, I think I'm right.

The reason why some demons can completely act like their hosts is because of how well they inherited their memories.
Some demons are evil and cruel, despite who's body they're using.
Eg., Willow, Spike, Drusilla...
But then again some demons just completely take on the personality, eg. Harmony. But Harmony is still willing to kill and whatnot. There hasn't been a vampire that's been good on his or her own.
Spike is an exception because of the chip and that completely deluded his inner demon. (And that's a whole different discussion on its own)
So when William got his soul back, you can tell that he was having adjustment issues because William's soul is remembering everything the Spike (the demon) did. But he is essentially the same person because he now remembers and experienced the demon's memories, as if he was always there.

I base most of this off of the episode "Lie To Me". But I believe that the rest of the series backs this info up.

So I like I said before, when you get turned, you die - you're gone. And a demon takes over your personality.
 
But if a demon has your memories, do not your memories help make who you are who you are?

They might have a total different approach to ethics but even simple vamps like Jesse....who did he go to? Cordelia.

You can't "be gone' if part of you...your memories of your life...remain.

And remain they do, so I'm not as sure as you are that you are right.
 
Your memories don't make you.
I don't really know how to explain it.
Okay, maybe like this.
Cordelia lost her memory on "Angel" briefly but she was still her. So, even without her memories, she was still Cordelia, soul and all. That applies to everyone.
I don't know if the soul keeps the memories and stuff after death, because "BtVS" and "Angel" purposefully stay vague about the afterlife. But apparently, vampires attain the memories of the former human.
That's at least my take on it.
 
I reject that; your memories are your reflection for what you have done and or considered. They are a record of your past, they do not make you, but they at least help define who you were and shape what you might become.

A vampire has a set history in its mind of the prior soul, how it works with that depends on the vampire.

Saying Cordelia lost her memory but remains unchanged does not apply to the argument, the memory is a record of what Cordelia is, not so much the reason for why she is what she is.

Obviously Spike is not William, but in my heart I believe William influenced Spike by a record of his soul's action preserved in their shared memory.


Cordelia herself, disposition etc. helped form the memories that represent her. saying her lack of memories did not influences her outcome/ did not make her change does not apply, At the core it is still Cordy.

With a hybrid the memory is a form of teacher, it is another individual with experiences that shape the hybrid.

Also we are not talking about a loss of memory, which outcome can be veried by circumastance and individual.. so much as influence of the losts souls memory on the hybrid, which by episode experience can be documented on more than a case by case scenario from the mistaken by Buffy annoited one, to Dru, to even perhaps Spike.
 
I'm gonna end my argument with this excerpt.
This is from "Lie to Me" and this is the basis for my theory.

Ford: I will become immortal.
Buffy: Well, I've got a news flash for you, braintrust: that's not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you.

So if your opinion is still unchanged, then let's agree to disagree, k? =)

EDIT: I want to rephrase "Your memories don't make you".
I meant to say: "Your memories are not the same thing as your soul". Your soul can exist w/o memories.
 
Thats cool, I agree to disagree. 🙂

That episode is pretty early in the seasons, back when Buffy and Giles are new to it all. Things were pretty black and white then. I honestly believe they don't really know what they are talking about there, it's pre angelus and spike and harmony, pre judge message, pre Anya, pre experience...pre all those examples I've listed. They don't have a point of reference or evidence to suggest anything different than same old same old watcher council 'kill the demons' catch phrases.

By watching how the demon reacts to the human remnant of the hybrid, I've riddled out my own way of thinking on it.

Spike and William are not the same person, I was never arguing that, but spike is the hybrid that he is because, in part, he has Williams memories to draw from...a history of how Williams soul interacted with the world around him. At least that is what I believe. Williams memory is what made the chip so effective, it helped spike love Buffy, least thats how i like to think of it.

I'm not to sure at heart we disagree...I don't believe the victims soul is there either...but a memory of it and all things concerning it (from the victims stand point no less) is. When you live in a persons house you sometimes adopt some of their characteristics, and at the very lest learn from them.

foreign exchange students as a case in point.
 
Look at it this way.

If an event that happened in your life was taken away from your memories, would you still be the same person?

How can you be because who you are is dictated to by the events of your life.

You are the sum of your memories because everything you are now is based on what you have done, seen, learnt and understood over time.
 
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