@BlackEyedGuy, So it's creator only now, and not storyteller as your last argument said? Check the credits for Angel. David Greenwalt is listed as creator with Joss. So by your latest argument, David Greenwalt determines what is canon for Angel equally with Joss. I'm sorry, but Joss is not the sole determiner of all canon.
Joss is the storyteller, all the stories are pitched to him, or come from him. the other writers, write for his story. Storyteller and Creator are the same to me.
Joss and Greenwalt created Angel, but they created him for Joss's production company. Joss owns any and all characters from BtVS/Angel, same way Noxon isn't owner of Riley, I don't think Greewalt has any control over Angel, he gets the credit of helping to create him, but not ownership.
I've heard no one mention consulting Greenwalt for the Angel comics, because they only need to consult Joss, all characters are his.
(Just to be clear also, I know he doesn't own them when it comes to licensing and all that, that's Fox, but outside of licensing, Joss owns them)
Joss is the sole decider on Canon, how can you argue that. EVERYTHING runs though Joss in one form or another.
I've heard him talk about the Buffy novels before, he said a writer gets licensing permission from Fox, and the story is run by him, the story may not clash with anything in the show, but he still gets to decide what is canon. People don't run Angel stories by Greenwalt.
It seems you think that by creating a character you get ownership, but if you create a character for a production company that company gets ownership not the creator, anything made using Angel has to say "Based on the characters created by Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt", but for permission to use a character you'd only need to speak to Joss.
As far as continuity, aside from things, for example, like Spike's age, the relative strength and power of the characters could easily fluctuate from story to story as needed. The treatment of demons changed radically between episodes. Even the rationale and workings of magic. And let's not even go to the actual layout of Sunnydale, which was both a portside city (season 2) and in the middle of the desert with no seaside (season 7). And as they jokingly point out in Buffy vs Dracula, suddenly acquires a big honking castle. I'll have to go back through my recordings of the radio show the Succubus Club, where many of the writers came to be interviewed at the time the show was running, to find the many quotes about Joss saying to hell with continuity.
---------- Post added at 02:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------
Okay, Black Eye Guy, here's just a little of the BIG continuity problems as located within a few minutes by a simple check on imdb-
Why wasn't another Slayer called after Buffy died in 'The Gift'?
There is no canonical answer. Fans came up with this sometime after the series ended: "When Buffy dies in Season One, her replacement is called (Kendra), so the Slayer line no longer moves through her. When Kendra dies, Faith is called, and any future line would move through Faith. By the time Buffy dies in Season Five, whatever power activates new Slayers no longer recognizes her. From that point, another Slayer would not have been called unless Faith died." There are rumors that Joss later confirmed this in an interview but so far there has been no proof of it.
This took FOREVER to find, I have literally spent the last few hours searing the internet, watching videos and reading Q&A's with Joss, as I knew I'd read at least one interview were Joss mentions this. Every time this is referenced on the internet there is no citation for it, I actually came across it from a google search from a thread we had on here back in 2006!
Questioner: Why don't they just kill Buffy repeatedly, and get a band of Slayers?
Joss:Hopefully this will be the last time we kill her. The line runs through Faith. If you want a new Slayer you'll have to kill Faith.
Joss said that at a Science Fiction Convention in the UK back in 2001.
Source
In reference to the above question: But don't Buffy (and Giles, and Dawn) say in Season Seven that if Buffy dies, a new Slayer would be called?
They do. Multiple possibilities. One is that they're genuinely mistaken. Another is that they're lying to avoid having to confuse the Potentials with the whole "second Slayer" issue (or dishearten them by mentioning that Buffy already died twice). A third is that because Buffy was resurrected by magic, it could mean that she's back on the radar of whatever calls new Slayers, and so her death would call a new one. The fourth is that the writers *beeped* it up. Pick any one, or a combination.
They do address this in the show, When Giles and Anya speak to Beljoxa's eye he says that Buffy being resurrected messed up the slayer line, they don't state exactly why but you can put that down to her being put back into the Slayer line. the only reason that works for me is that the First thinks Buffys death will activate a new slayer.
If it was just Buffy saying that, I'd put that down to Buffy not knowing enough about the slayer line.
There's a difference between a continuity error and something that hasn't been fully explored yet, and thats something they haven't fully explored but do make reference to by having it be the story of why the First could attack the slayers.
What's up with Buffy's selective Slayer superpowers (TM)? In 'Into The Woods', she takes out 10 vampires at once without breaking a sweat; in Seasons 6-7 she got knocked around by one or two; in 'I Robot, You Jane' she outruns a car; in 'Spiral' she can't outrun Glory (who's wearing high heels), etc.
Firstly Glory is a god, no further explanation needed.
Buffys "Selective powers" isn't selective, thats like saying if someone wins in a boxing match, that person is always going to win, people have good days and bad days, and any number of factors go towards that. Buffy got stabbed with her own stake by one vampire, because every fight is different.
How old is Angel/Spike/Drusilla/Darla?
Their sirings are all shown in flashbacks: Angel was turned in 1753, Spike in 1880, Drusilla in 1860, and Darla in 1609.
Those dates seem to be from whence they count their ages. However, we do know that Liam (Angel) was born as a human in 1727. Angel also spent 100 years in a Hell dimension (though this was only a few months in 'normal' time), but never seems to count these when calculating his age. As to why their ages are sometimes fudged in the series, there are three possibilities. One is that Giles' books are wrong. Another is that, after a few centuries, you begin to forget your exact age. The third (and most likely) is that the writers either forgot or they changed the dates to make other events possible.
Yeah I'd kinda give you that, but I'd also say they haven't given exact dates so we can't be sure the ages, we don't know what year Spike was born, just the year he was turned but not what age he is.
Angel isn't sure how long he was in that hell dimension for, so I'd assume that why it's not counted.
There's a difference between being able to rationalise something and something being totally out of sync with canon.
When Anyanka's necklace is smashed in 'The Wish', we're told all her wishes will be reversed. But in 'Hell's Bells', a guy that she cursed back in the 1920's is still a demon.
Six possibilities.
1) The guy was in another dimension when the wishes were reversed, and so missed out on the magic.
2) Giles' book was wrong.
3) This wish was still in progress, while the 1920's wish had long since been completed. There may have safegaurds in place to prevent every wish granted over thousands of years from suddenly unravelling, as that could be catastrophic on several levels.
4) It was stated by Anya in Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Something Blue (#4.9) that she used magic to curse people before becoming a vengeance demon, so it's possible that she used a magic spell to curse the guy instead of using the necklace's power.
5) The writers screwed up.
6) It only affected the most recent wishes at that time.
The First Evil is supposed to be incorporeal. Yet in 'Amends', the First Evil (as Jenny Calendar) visibly strokes Angel's hair and it moves, it doesn't just pass through. How can this be possible?
If you want an "in-show" explanation, I guess it's possible that Angel is so crazy at this point he actually thinks Jenny is touching him. The reality is that the writers messed it up, and hoped no one would remember as far back as Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Amends (#3.10).
those ones I'd give you,, without explanation that doesn't fit with the events of later, such as if Anya wanted to undo what she did with the Frat boys she could have smashed her necklace.
But I'd also conciser them small issues not big ones, I'd see something like if they suddenly said Slayers can control the weather in season 6 without ever mentioning it before that would be a big continuity error.
An example of a show that doesn't care about continuity is Charmed, I enjoy Charmed but they didn't get a crap about continuity. they set up story's about how the 3 main characters are the most powerful and have special abilities that no one else has, and by the last series their having other characters bottle the main characters powers in potions.
Buffy had minor stuff but nothing major.
And finally here is Joss himself admitting he alone did not create the Buffyverse-
(part of a story about him being asked about possible Buffy movie reboot he would not be involved in)- "I always hoped that Buffy would live on even after my death. But, you know, AFTER. I don't love the idea of my creation in other hands, but I'm also well aware that many more hands than mine went into making that show what it was."
[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying he did it alone, but what you dont seem to be able to separate is Joss chooses the cannon, but the other people writing can't just put whatever they want in the script, it has be be approved first. By filtering everyhting by Joss, he becomes the sole holder of canon. He chooses the people that contribute to it, if someone writes an episode and Joss decides their contribution is cannon, it is.
If a Noxon decided Slayers had x-ray vision in season 6, and not that buffy developed it, but she always had it, Joss would have shot that down as it didn't fit the canon.
Interview with TVGuide:
TVGuide.com : Have you seen the Battlestar Galactica comic ?
Whedon : No, I don't think I can do it. I love Battlestar too hard. I couldn't look at any ancillary work.
TVGuide.com : I love Buffy "hard," so are you saying we fans shouldn't read the comic ?
Whedon : No, because if they stopped doing Battlestar Galactica, and then two or three years later Ron Moore and David Eick said, "We ourselves are going to continue the story in comic-book form - as opposed to something ancillary to the show done by other people," then I would be all over it. People used to say, "Will you make a Buffy movie like The X-Files did ?" I was like never, because while the show is going on, the show is my only priority. That's not to say the Battlestar comic isn't great, but I love that show the way other people love Buffy. I love it unreasonably. [Laughs] It feels wrong.
Source
In BtVS Joss sets cannon, thats how it works, as I said your free to ignore parts but that doesn't matter to canon, thats just your opinion.
[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]- If you are telling me to drop this whole discussion, I will. I refuse to say that my argument is wrong, however. I am by no means the only person who refuses to recognize the comics as canon. In fact among the group of fanfic authors on Livejournal and Ao3 I know, I don't know any who write fic that utilizes comic canon. And I've been writing fic since 2002. This will be my last post on the topic in this thread.
But Fan Fic is for fun, it actually doesn't matter to cannon, Fan fic has no say or effect on cannon, I don't see the relevance of Fan Fiction writers to the argument?
