What Is Redemption?

[white avenger]

This has come up several times as applied to 2 ensouled vampires, a rogue Slayer, a former vengeance demon, and a dark witch, among others, all unnamed, because this isn't about any specific character, it's about the concept of redemption itself. What is it, why should a character feel compelled to attain it, revered for trying, or condemned for not feeling any need to bother with it? Is it even something that it is possible to earn, win, or be given, or is it just an unattainable goal whose sincere pursuit in and of itself tends to make a character better?

 

[bespangeled]

This has come up several times as applied to 2 ensouled vampires, a rogue Slayer, a former vengeance demon, and a dark witch, among others, all unnamed, because this isn't about any specific character, it's about the concept of redemption itself. What is it, why should a character feel compelled to attain it, revered for trying, or condemned for not feeling any need to bother with it? Is it even something that it is possible to earn, win, or be given, or is it just an unattainable goal whose sincere pursuit in and of itself tends to make a character better?

Damn - those are good questions.

Just taking a quick stab - back is killing me so I'm gonna have to go off. Most of my thoughts are questions.

To begin with - what is evil? Is it the result of the intent? Is it going against your nature, following your nature, or changing your nature?

Redemption follows evil - and defining evil is - to me - the first step in defining redemption.

Back for more later.

 

[Blaze]

A character should not do good because they want redemption, they should do good because they want to do good. In that way of thought, redemption is something that is given, not taken. In that sense it shouldn't matter one bit if a character is seeking it or not, because redemption shouldn't be a final goal, or else it wouldn't be truly altruistic. Therefore, a person seeking redemption is only better if they do not pursue this as a goal, but as a way of thinking.

I think all of the characters you mentioned use redemption as a way of thinking, but not as a goal. Which is great because they are not doing the actions solemnly based on their past actions, but instead are doing actions to better the future of everyone.

-Spike doesn't really give a crap about being redeemed or feeling bad about his pass actions, but he does work towards a better future for everyone
-Willow never truly acknowledge or say that she's sorry for what she did, but she flips the cards and becomes all white and stuff
-Anya loved her old work, but sacrifices herself and the thing she loved doing most in order to save others
-Angel knows that he can one day be rewarded with redemption, but he sells that away because it is the right thing to do
-Faith doesn't try to make amens with the people she hurts most because she doesn't seek redemption from them, she seeks to better herself, which in itself is the best thing she could do at the time

These actions are all about redemption in a way, but they are not about the character seeking redemption, they are about the character focusing on the idea of doing what is right, which is what redemption is about in the first place.

In my head, redemption is pretty much a paradox. Kinda "if you have to ask, you will never know. If you know, you need only to ask" riddle.

 

[bespangeled]

A character should not do good because they want redemption, they should do good because they want to do good. In that way of thought, redemption is something that is given, not taken. In that sense it shouldn't matter one bit if a character is seeking it or not, because redemption shouldn't be a final goal, or else it wouldn't be truly altruistic. Therefore, a person seeking redemption is only better if they do not pursue this as a goal, but as a way of thinking.

I think all of the characters you mentioned use redemption as a way of thinking, but not as a goal. Which is great because they are not doing the actions solemnly based on their past actions, but instead are doing actions to better the future of everyone.

-Spike doesn't really give a crap about being redeemed or feeling bad about his pass actions, but he does work towards a better future for everyone
-Willow never truly acknowledge or say that she's sorry for what she did, but she flips the cards and becomes all white and stuff
-Anya loved her old work, but sacrifices herself and the thing she loved doing most in order to save others
-Angel knows that he can one day be rewarded with redemption, but he sells that away because it is the right thing to do
-Faith doesn't try to make amens with the people she hurts most because she doesn't seek redemption from them, she seeks to better herself, which in itself is the best thing she could do at the time

These actions are all about redemption in a way, but they are not about the character seeking redemption, they are about the character focusing on the idea of doing what is right, which is what redemption is about in the first place.

In my head, redemption is pretty much a paradox. Kinda "if you have to ask, you will never know. If you know, you need only to ask" riddle.

Yeah, that's why I never liked the Shanshu. Angel didn't need a carrot. It changes things from 'the only thing that is important to do right" which is real redemption to redemption for a goal. That's what turns a journey into a goal. He has struggled with that conundrum, but his redemption really comes from his gut. (Maybe that Shanshu is just a way to show that struggle....gonna have to do a rewatch soon).

Spike has had a soul for two years. That's important for two reasons - Angel had 90 years with a soul before he sought redemption. Spike has a role model. Kick, scream, snark - it is not a coincidence that Spike went after the same women as Angel. The chip took away his ability to hunt and harm humans. When he has proof positive that he is still capable of great evil and can't trust himself - well, he then follows Angel again - a soul. Once he gets resurrected he both fights against being anything like Angel and learns from him. I see Spike very much as a work in process, but he realizes fighting evil is his path, and he relies on Angel to lead in the right direction by NFA.


Willow - hard for me to say. I'd say that even if redemption has never occurred to her she sure as hell is trying hard not to hurt anyone, while pressing herself to get past her fears.

Anya is a paradox. Yes, she does sacrifice in the end. What I hate is the idea that vengeance demons have souls. 1,000 years as a torture/killer and it is completely dismissed? No pain, no guilt. Blows a real hole, the size of New Mexico into the entire redemption idea. (I love Anya - I just think the show should have used her better.)

Faith - I really love Faith. Her journey personifies redemption for me. I disliked her, and it was seeing that journey that touched me in so many ways

How about Wesley ? Can he seek redemption?

 

[thetopher]

Redemption is a motivator, like love or duty or loyalty, not an achievable goal. It's something that certain characters follow as a rule in life, but other characters simply learn from the bad stuff they did.

For Angel its a motivator, at least partialy- he feels the weight of the actions that he did, and the actions of Angelus, which he has personal memories of.

The same with Faith I think, Angelus might be Spike's 'Yoda' but Angel is definitly her's- she learns from him and takes her cue from him (and to a lesser extent Giles) about the 'price' of her fall never, ever being paid out in full, but she does it any way.

With Willow and Anya its a lesson, not something they follow consistantly- Willow sees Dark Willow mostly as a cautuionary tale never to lose 'control' of her powers/emotions again- thats what most of her S7 arc is about- control, not guilt.
And with Anya its about what humanity is to her, basically not doing evil things, feeling bad about not ding evil things, knowing that there's a 'price' (see 'Selfless') for acting in a certain way. By the end of S7 she understands, clearly, what it is the be a 'good' human- to fight and never give up, even if it is hopeless and they can't win.

With Spike, love is the motivator, not redemption, at least not until somewhere in Angel S5. He gets his soul not for all the evils to be commited, not to be a 'better man', as Buffy stated, but to be what 'she deserved' so she could love him the way he loved her . His being a better man/ redeeming himself starts with his sacrifice at the end of Buffy and ends in 'Not Fade Away'- at which point I firmly believe he considers his 'redemption' done, and eventually returns to Buffy- love becomes his motivator again.

So there, Redemption is an absract concept the light at the end of a very, very long tunnel.
It's also worth noting that not even Angel believes in 'Shanshu' anymore, he's pretty disillusioned with the whole idea of reward.

 

[white avenger]

I would just like to say at this point that these are all insightful, well thought out answers to a question that can literally have as many valid answers as there are people to interpret it.

 

[Xin Rong]

Redemption for me it's about seeking some form of absolute, abstract form of forgiveness. It's about a character learning to live with themselves for their past misdemeanors, by doing the right thing in the present.

Bit simple, I know,but sometimes simple is best.

 

[EVIL UU]

Redemption is bullshit.

It's pretty simple, you're a good guy, you go to heaven, you're a dickhead, you go to hell, unless you redeem yourself, hence redemption. Makes sense, right? Well, there's just one problem - it doesn't work like that in Buffyverse. There is no deity to judge your actions and there is no heaven or hell, just a whole lot of dimensions and it doesn't even matter whether you're a dickhead or a good guy. Seriously.

You're Liam. You're by no means perfect but you're more or less alright, you're no killer and there a people in your life you truly love. One night you meet this chick and next thing you know you're well, dead, that's it, game over. Relax though, by most definitions you are a good guy so you should end up in some nice place, right? No, of course not, it turns out some demon dickhead takes over your dead body and goes on killing people for a hundred years until a bunch of Gypsy assholes shove you, a good guy, back into your dead body, you now have to share with that demon dickhead. Damn. So you hang out, brood for a bit, meet this chick, go to bed with her and next thing you know you're back in afterlife again and despite some stuff, you're still more or less a good guy, so, have a beer and relax. Oh wait, some bitch of a witch shoves you back into your dead body, the chick you've just slept with pierces you with a sword and dude, you're in hell, there's monsters and shit everywhere. Damn, Dude but you're a good guy. Oh, OK, you're back on Earth, oh oops, you're not, your beer's still cold by the way, oh the witch chick does her shit again and you're on Earth, again, for the forth time. Shit, Liam, how do I tell you this, turns out, you're damned. You're a dickhead. Yeah, I don't get it either dude. You are a good guy, not perfect but decent enough. You didn't kill anybody. Meanwhile, that chick who put you in hell, she killed people, like murdered even and guess what, she ended up in heaven. Yeah, I know dude, this is not cool. At least the bitch witch shoved her back into her dead body too, funny, huh?

Yeah, redemption is a load of shit. Good guy or dickhead, your decisions do not matter. Do what you want to do, whatever makes you happy. Be whoever you want to be, good guy or a dickhead, it doesn't matter anyway. Have fun, I guess. Be happy. Heaven is a state of mind. Just remember, good guys don't hang out with dickheads. You don't want to hang out with dickheads, do you?

 

[bespangeled]

I'm definitely not a Christian - and I have no belief in heaven or hell. I don't believe in any personal salvation.

Redemption is just the choice to do good. You can't always manage it, but that's human.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

If you look at the religious view of redemption, it is not what most people assume it to be. In Old testament times, if you had been sold into slavery to pay a debt, a relative could buy your way out of debt and the relative was known as a kinsman-redeemer. The meaning of the word then expanded into the freeing of the Israelite slaves in Exodus and the sacrifice of Jesus as a means to "buy back" humanity from the slavery of sin. But the original meaning of the word is the same as currently used by shoppers who clip coupons then redeem them for the discount on products.

It is a term meaning to buy back something that had been lost or sold and may require more than the amount owed. If you pawn a watch and get $50 for it, if you want it back you may have to pay $80 for it. In the sense of Angel and Spike, this would mean saving more lives than they have taken.

 

[Doppelgang]

I like to avoid the Christian Mythology in my understanding of redemption, and focus on it psychologically and in relation to the concept of Karma.

It is not the doing of something bad and how it effects others that is our concern. It is not about seeking approval of peers or of people we wronged in the past. These things are secondary. Our primary concern is how it plays on our own minds and effects us. And to focus on clearing our own karmic debt.

The process of redemption, insofar as someone feels the need to pursue this process, is one of getting rid of the bad karma that pervades your being based on past actions. You may achieve this by seeking forgiveness somehow, or by changing the way you act, or by doing things as acts of atonement. There are many ways to seek redemption. But none is identical with what redemption is in itself. Which, in my understanding, is a karmic debt, effecting our psychology and our current life, that we want to clear.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Keeping the answer in line with the story. (Well that's the theory)

When Buffy died she said she was in heaven.
Angel went to hell, so in the story heaven and hell exists, presumably it follows that there is God and there is the Devil.
When Buffy told Spike she thought she had gone to heaven his reaction the facial expression he made makes me think he wasn't sure of it, maybe it gave him food for thought as when he had his soul back, in a church, on a cross he asked God if that is what he wanted.
That being so; Angel seeking forgiveness for his past would have been possible.
However.
His plans and actions in the last episode of Angel may have caused him never to get redemption. Unless you believe that no matter how bad/ evil the person you kill is.

So what religion was Liam? Catholic or Protestant. Angel says several times of his hatred/dislike of the English. With the Catholic church having been kicked out of England by King Henry VIII making England a Protestant country.
So with the likelyhood of Liam/Angel being Catholic he could have gone to any Catholic church and been given redemption anytime. All he had to do is keep his mouth shut about being a vampire.

 

[EVIL UU]

@ILLYRIAN

Angel went to hell

No, Angel was sucked into Acathla's Dimension. It's a demonic realm, not theological hell. A hell, not the hell.

so in the story heaven and hell exists

No. There are different dimensions, some are demonic, some are heavenly, Tara mentions it in "Tabula Rasa": It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions.

Buffy's heaven was a heaven but not the heaven.

 

[thetopher]

@ILLYRIAN


No, Angel was sucked into Acathla's Dimension. It's a demonic realm, not theological hell. A hell, not the hell.



No. There are different dimensions, some are demonic, some are heavenly, Tara mentions it in "Tabula Rasa": It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions.

Buffy's heaven was a heaven but not the heaven.

Exactly.

There's no definitive 'bad hell place', there are several, same with 'nice dimensions'.

Pylea was a 'hell dimension' where humans were kept as slaves but otherwise didn't seem that bad.
Then there was Quortoth which is characterised as a 'dark dimension/realm' and seemed really nasty, but humans could survive there-barely.

And then there's Anya and Willow sending Olaf to 'the Land of The Trolls'- probably like heaven for him since he likes being a troll- as long as it has virginial wenches and babies to eat. 🙂

Add to that the land without shrimp, the 'crazy melty' land and the land of perpetual Wednesday...where do people really go when they die?
Do they go to heaven or hell or a dimension of their choosing, depending on how 'nice' they've been?

Personally the 'crazy melty land' sounds interesting- I like abstract-ness. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

Keeping the answer in line with the story. (Well that's the theory)

When Buffy died she said she was in heaven.
Angel went to hell, so in the story heaven and hell exists, presumably it follows that there is God and there is the Devil.
When Buffy told Spike she thought she had gone to heaven his reaction the facial expression he made makes me think he wasn't sure of it, maybe it gave him food for thought as when he had his soul back, in a church, on a cross he asked God if that is what he wanted.
That being so; Angel seeking forgiveness for his past would have been possible.
However.
His plans and actions in the last episode of Angel may have caused him never to get redemption. Unless you believe that no matter how bad/ evil the person you kill is.

So what religion was Liam? Catholic or Protestant. Angel says several times of his hatred/dislike of the English. With the Catholic church having been kicked out of England by King Henry VIII making England a Protestant country.
So with the likelyhood of Liam/Angel being Catholic he could have gone to any Catholic church and been given redemption anytime. All he had to do is keep his mouth shut about being a vampire.

I do like your head canon - nicely woven. Mine is a bit different.

First off, is redemption the same as salvation? Is the Christian paradigm the only one with redemption and salvation, heaven and hell? I do know that Islam believes in all of these. I know Judaism does not - there is no original sin and no personal salvation. The Hindu belief in karma is essentially that life is predestined, as is rebirth. Buddhism doesn't have a god but does have more of a cause and effect karma.

I think once the characters say that there are hell dimensions and heaven dimensions - as well as other dimensions that could be heaven and hells then you are past one god and one devil. But I do believe that the conception of the afterlife would play a large part in the expectations.

Liam might well have been Protestant - the upper class in Ireland were Protestants given land grants starting under Elizabeth. That's the core issue in Ireland even today - hundreds of years later. Liam's father was a merchant - so it could go either way. It's doubtful he would have been born Protestant, but converting would have given him access to the upper classes. It may well have been a good business decisions - and would have definitely added to Liam's hatred of the English (being so close to daddy🙄). As a Catholic, wouldn't Liam need more than just confession? He would have to have communion, right?

I've always figured that vampires have to be - to some degree - simply sensitive to the local dominant religion. Otherwise large parts of the world would have been killed off completely. If only Christian symbols will kill of vampires then if you live in a strict Islamic country, you're toast. Imagine how the Fanged Four would have loved that - a country where there are virtually no crosses or holy water!

As for me - salvation is a concept that does require the idea that sin must be washed away from the soul. Redemption is open to anyone as a personal journey.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

Exactly.

There's no definitive 'bad hell place', there are several, same with 'nice dimensions'.

Pylea was a 'hell dimension' where humans were kept as slaves but otherwise didn't seem that bad.
Then there was Quortoth which is characterised as a 'dark dimension/realm' and seemed really nasty, but humans could survive there-barely.

And then there's Anya and Willow sending Olaf to 'the Land of The Trolls'- probably like heaven for him since he likes being a troll- as long as it has virginial wenches and babies to eat. 🙂

Add to that the land without shrimp, the 'crazy melty' land and the land of perpetual Wednesday...where do people really go when they die?
Do they go to heaven or hell or a dimension of their choosing, depending on how 'nice' they've been?

Personally the 'crazy melty land' sounds interesting- I like abstract-ness. 🙂

I want the land with only shrimp, where I would be a well fed god. But only as a vacation dimension.

 

[Doppelgang]

In relation to Spike, I remembered this line from Crush, which I just looked up, where he is explaining to Buffy how much Drusilla means to him and why it would mean a lot for him to kill her:

SPIKE: This is Drusilla, girl! You have the slightest idea what she means to me? It's the face of my salvation! (looks at Dru, smiles slightly) She delivered me from mediocrity.

So here we see that being evil was for Spike a form of "redemption" from his mediocre good existence up to that point. In fact, more specifically it was a case of doing things to please Drusilla. This just shows how differently redemption can be viewed from different perspectives and backgrounds. And how it is probably very much a unique definition and concept for each personal story of redemption. And has little to do with supposedly objective things like heaven and hell, Good and Evil. But is defined subjectively based on the meaning a person attaches to their experiences and to events in their life.

He then later on, of course, came to see his feelings for Buffy as a form of redemption, just going to prove, in Spikes case at least, how subjective the concept of redemption is.

 

[bespangeled]

In relation to Spike, I remembered this line from Crush, which I just looked up, where he is explaining to Buffy how much Drusilla means to him and why it would mean a lot for him to kill her:

SPIKE: This is Drusilla, girl! You have the slightest idea what she means to me? It's the face of my salvation! (looks at Dru, smiles slightly) She delivered me from mediocrity.

So here we see that being evil was for Spike a form of "redemption" from his mediocre good existence up to that point. In fact, more specifically it was a case of doing things to please Drusilla. This just shows how differently redemption can be viewed from different perspectives and backgrounds. And how it is probably very much a unique definition and concept for each personal story of redemption. And has little to do with supposedly objective things like heaven and hell, Good and Evil. But is defined subjectively based on the meaning a person attaches to their experiences and to events in their life.

He then later on, of course, came to see his feelings for Buffy as a form of redemption, just going to prove, in Spikes case at least, how subjective the concept of redemption is.

It's funny - I always love that logic (kill Dru for Buffy) because it's clearly based on the fact that Angel killed Darla for her. Talk about missing the point entirely.

I see why Spike feels that Dru saved him - but I disagree that salvation is the same as redemption. She saved him from the life of mediocrity, and now he seeks redemption for the things he does.

Salvation is a bringing to, a goal of sorts - and redemption is a path and not a goal.

All of which actually kinda proves your point about different views, though. 🙂