What is Xander's Problem?
- Thread starter drtroy
- Start date
True enough- Xander made some pretty stupid mistakes but he got over them all! and bangel- I can't disagree more-although everyone knows im a crazed bangel fan so yah.
(psst. I like to have rants too sometimes!🙂)
(psst. I like to have rants too sometimes!🙂)
Randy Giles
Two sides to every soul.
Yes, there is. Because he still hated them when they had a soul.
Xander's just a jackass.
With Angel, it was clear Xander was jealous. After the Angelus period, it wasn't strange for Xander to still be threatened especially since Angelus had hurt his friends, ones Xander always placed before himself. However, he came through in the end when he helped Buffy save Angel in Amends.
With Spike, Xander was still pissed over the attempted rape but then he was one of the few who started to accept Spike. There were many moments that show that Xander was fine with Spike after Him.
i never liked the 'guy who saw things', it just seemed to be something they decided to throw in during series 7, probably just for that one line of calebs, because xander in the early series never really saw past his own desires... just my opinion.
FYI I just want6ed to say I did love xander I just think they over-exaggerated his importance too much towards the end when he hadn't done anything else...
FYI I just want6ed to say I did love xander I just think they over-exaggerated his importance too much towards the end when he hadn't done anything else...
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
can i just point out something that really annoyed the hell outta me?
xander kept bringing up the attemped rape but
HEW DID IR HIMSELF IN SEASON 1!!!!!!! episode the pack
and thew only reason he stopped was cause buffy knocked him out
spike could of jumped back on her when she kicked him off (probably what xander tried to do)
Bufy didn't
How can xander be so Hyperciracal?
xander kept bringing up the attemped rape but
HEW DID IR HIMSELF IN SEASON 1!!!!!!! episode the pack
and thew only reason he stopped was cause buffy knocked him out
spike could of jumped back on her when she kicked him off (probably what xander tried to do)
Bufy didn't
How can xander be so Hyperciracal?
First of all, the guy-who-sees-thing can be said about Mature S7 Xander. It doesn't have to be about teenage Xander. It's like saying that Spike was good since S1. Characters change and develop. Xander did. And saying that he never had an insightful moment in high school years is also not true, Prophecy Girl, When She Was Bad and The Prom all had moments where Xander was insightful, even more insightful than Willow.
Second of all, Xander didn't try to rape Buffy. He was possessed. That's the difference. He couldn't help it that he was possessed by an animal spirit. Spike was Spike. Xander was a Hyena. Now if you wanna say that Souled Spike didn't rape Buffy, then I agree.
You wanna an example about a time where Xander could've raped Buffy? BB&B, he had Buffy under a spell, willing and ready, but he turned her down. Because he's not that kind of person who would take advantage of his friend, even though he was in love with her.
Second of all, Xander didn't try to rape Buffy. He was possessed. That's the difference. He couldn't help it that he was possessed by an animal spirit. Spike was Spike. Xander was a Hyena. Now if you wanna say that Souled Spike didn't rape Buffy, then I agree.
You wanna an example about a time where Xander could've raped Buffy? BB&B, he had Buffy under a spell, willing and ready, but he turned her down. Because he's not that kind of person who would take advantage of his friend, even though he was in love with her.
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
yeah but spike was completly pushed to his edge you must have seen that look in huis eyes guilt sorrow ect i mean he went and got a soul for gods sakes
and xander?
he didn't admit it not so much as a sorry to buffy
and xander?
he didn't admit it not so much as a sorry to buffy
Spike had to feel guilty. It was him who attempted to rape her.
Why should Xander feel guilty? It's not like rational-Xander was making conscious decisions. No one blames Jenny Calendar when she gets possessed - she's treated like the victim, even though she tried to kill them all. And I don't think that hyena-Xander was simply acting out Xander's baser urges - I don't think he really believes the things he said to Willow, and while he might be attracted to Buffy, he obviously respects her (for a counterpoint to this episode, look at the way he doesn't take advantage of her when she's the one under the influence in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" ).
The only thing I think we can hold Xander accountable for is lying about remembering - and even then, it's really a matter of self-preservation and protecting their friendship from unnecessary conflict. What good would it do for Xander to confess, "Yes, I remember trying to rape you"? He'd obviously apologize, even though it wasn't really his doing, and Buffy would accept it, and then, whether they want to or not, they'd both probably feel awkward about the whole thing. This way, they can pretend it never happened, which is what they both obviously want to do. Remember - Xander asks flat out if he did anything else, giving Buffy the opportunity to speak up if she was bothered by the attack. She lets him off the hook by saying nothing happened. Really, the best thing for their friendship is to forget it and move on, which is what they do.
Why should Xander feel guilty? It's not like rational-Xander was making conscious decisions. No one blames Jenny Calendar when she gets possessed - she's treated like the victim, even though she tried to kill them all. And I don't think that hyena-Xander was simply acting out Xander's baser urges - I don't think he really believes the things he said to Willow, and while he might be attracted to Buffy, he obviously respects her (for a counterpoint to this episode, look at the way he doesn't take advantage of her when she's the one under the influence in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" ).
The only thing I think we can hold Xander accountable for is lying about remembering - and even then, it's really a matter of self-preservation and protecting their friendship from unnecessary conflict. What good would it do for Xander to confess, "Yes, I remember trying to rape you"? He'd obviously apologize, even though it wasn't really his doing, and Buffy would accept it, and then, whether they want to or not, they'd both probably feel awkward about the whole thing. This way, they can pretend it never happened, which is what they both obviously want to do. Remember - Xander asks flat out if he did anything else, giving Buffy the opportunity to speak up if she was bothered by the attack. She lets him off the hook by saying nothing happened. Really, the best thing for their friendship is to forget it and move on, which is what they do.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Oh gosh. Have we turned this into a The Pack Xander vs. Seeing Red Xander thread? I have mixed feelings about that one, myself.
For the most part, I love Xander. He really is "one of the good ones." He's got his flaws, but I'll discuss those in another paragraph; this paragraph is for his virtues. First and foremost, Xander is brave. He takes on the nasty baddies of the world without the benefit of super powers. He's just an average guy, but he doesn't let that stop him. Xander didn't have the best family, the best childhood, the or the best potential. He wasn't one of the smart kids or one of the jocks or rich or well-connected or even talented at playing an instrument. But he still grew up to be the most financially capable and successful of the scoobies. He was a stable, decent, hardworking man. He was living the American dream all on his own and doing a good job of it, too. That's part of what attracted capitalist Anya to him. The other scoobies could have learned a thing or two about elbow grease from him. While he was doing that, he was also Mr. Fix-It to his friends. Xander didn't grow up with much love in his life, but he had the biggest heart of any of the scoobies. He loved them unconditionally. Could you imagine what their lives would have been like without Xander? Not only would the house would have fallen to pieces after a couple of fights, but the world would have ended a couple of times, too. His love and his courage saved the world at least twice -- and that's not counting the effort he put into researching and fighting during other apocalypses. Xander is like the rock or the anchor of the scooby group. He will always be there for them. He will always love them. He will always stand and fight with them. Finally, he will always be good. The darkest evil he has in him is the tendency to doubt himself so much that he wants to spare those he loves from it (Hell's Bells). He's just one of the good ones. He has principles and he stands by them -- and, coincidentally, he's also an average straight guy with a very feminist way of life, if his interactions with his female friends are any indication. He sees Buffy and Willow and Anya as individuals whom he loves and he is unthreatened by the areas in which they outstrip him (and not overly proud about the areas in which he outstrips them). He's who Riley tried and failed to be.
In addition to all of those virtues, Xander also has a laundry list of flaws. That makes his character real and readily accessible rather than some icon of perfection. First and foremost, Xander is insecure. He sees how great everyone else is and because he doesn't have any nifty powers -- because he's just an average guy -- he questions whether or not he deserves anything good. More often than not, those doubts cause him to shoot himself in the foot. He's a scared little boy who never quite grew up. He feels like any success he achieves is fleeting or illusory, and so it often ends up being that way. Really, his biggest flaw is that he doesn't know how great he is. Part of him is still stuck in that persona of the kinda dorky kid with the embarrassingly hick family. These insecurities cause all sorts of negative outgrowths. He is so afraid of being left out or of not getting what he deserves, for instance, that he can be rather selfish at times. He's so afraid of getting hurt that he can be insensitive to others. He's so afraid of hurting others that he can lie or make other bad decisions. He very strongly dislikes people whom he sees as having it "easier" than he does, (like Angel) so he has a tendency to let those negative feelings cloud his judgment. He's prone to saying "I told you so." He's hesitant to accept responsibility when he does wrong, and yet quick to heap blame onto others. For much of the series, he has a narrowly defined worldview and he displays considerable animosity toward anyone or anything that does not fit that worldview. He's led by his passions, so when he is jealous or lusty or angry or something, he has a tendency to let those emotions make him temporarily nasty. Basically, he's human. His struggles are our struggles, and they don't always bring out the rosier, more noble side of his character. Like us, he fails as often as he succeeds. The important thing, I guess, is that he keeps trying.
That's my long-winded take on Xander. I actually find him to be the most easily accessible character. The more I play him in the RPG or write for him in my Wishverse story, the more I like him. He seems very real.
For the most part, I love Xander. He really is "one of the good ones." He's got his flaws, but I'll discuss those in another paragraph; this paragraph is for his virtues. First and foremost, Xander is brave. He takes on the nasty baddies of the world without the benefit of super powers. He's just an average guy, but he doesn't let that stop him. Xander didn't have the best family, the best childhood, the or the best potential. He wasn't one of the smart kids or one of the jocks or rich or well-connected or even talented at playing an instrument. But he still grew up to be the most financially capable and successful of the scoobies. He was a stable, decent, hardworking man. He was living the American dream all on his own and doing a good job of it, too. That's part of what attracted capitalist Anya to him. The other scoobies could have learned a thing or two about elbow grease from him. While he was doing that, he was also Mr. Fix-It to his friends. Xander didn't grow up with much love in his life, but he had the biggest heart of any of the scoobies. He loved them unconditionally. Could you imagine what their lives would have been like without Xander? Not only would the house would have fallen to pieces after a couple of fights, but the world would have ended a couple of times, too. His love and his courage saved the world at least twice -- and that's not counting the effort he put into researching and fighting during other apocalypses. Xander is like the rock or the anchor of the scooby group. He will always be there for them. He will always love them. He will always stand and fight with them. Finally, he will always be good. The darkest evil he has in him is the tendency to doubt himself so much that he wants to spare those he loves from it (Hell's Bells). He's just one of the good ones. He has principles and he stands by them -- and, coincidentally, he's also an average straight guy with a very feminist way of life, if his interactions with his female friends are any indication. He sees Buffy and Willow and Anya as individuals whom he loves and he is unthreatened by the areas in which they outstrip him (and not overly proud about the areas in which he outstrips them). He's who Riley tried and failed to be.
In addition to all of those virtues, Xander also has a laundry list of flaws. That makes his character real and readily accessible rather than some icon of perfection. First and foremost, Xander is insecure. He sees how great everyone else is and because he doesn't have any nifty powers -- because he's just an average guy -- he questions whether or not he deserves anything good. More often than not, those doubts cause him to shoot himself in the foot. He's a scared little boy who never quite grew up. He feels like any success he achieves is fleeting or illusory, and so it often ends up being that way. Really, his biggest flaw is that he doesn't know how great he is. Part of him is still stuck in that persona of the kinda dorky kid with the embarrassingly hick family. These insecurities cause all sorts of negative outgrowths. He is so afraid of being left out or of not getting what he deserves, for instance, that he can be rather selfish at times. He's so afraid of getting hurt that he can be insensitive to others. He's so afraid of hurting others that he can lie or make other bad decisions. He very strongly dislikes people whom he sees as having it "easier" than he does, (like Angel) so he has a tendency to let those negative feelings cloud his judgment. He's prone to saying "I told you so." He's hesitant to accept responsibility when he does wrong, and yet quick to heap blame onto others. For much of the series, he has a narrowly defined worldview and he displays considerable animosity toward anyone or anything that does not fit that worldview. He's led by his passions, so when he is jealous or lusty or angry or something, he has a tendency to let those emotions make him temporarily nasty. Basically, he's human. His struggles are our struggles, and they don't always bring out the rosier, more noble side of his character. Like us, he fails as often as he succeeds. The important thing, I guess, is that he keeps trying.
That's my long-winded take on Xander. I actually find him to be the most easily accessible character. The more I play him in the RPG or write for him in my Wishverse story, the more I like him. He seems very real.
S
sosa lola
This is one great post and I fully agree with it. I love Xander, especially for his real flaws.
J
justanotherjen
great post. I completely agree and that sums up exactly why Xander is my favorite character.
Yeah but just because he had a few insightful moments doesnt lead to him being the one who see's everything. I mean there were plenty of people who had more insightful moments, anya for one in my eyes was the one who was insightful, sometimes strangely so but she did. Even faith had her insightful moments doesnt mean shes the one who sees everything, the whole xander thing was just a cop out to please his fans in the last series
I don't think Xander seeing everything was meant to be about being insightful, it was about seeing his friends in pain and being there for them, that what Dawn meant anyway. Caleb was just repeating Dawn's words. And as I said, Xander had gained insight with maturity in S7, it doesn't have to be an ability he had in earlier seasons. And you don't really have to read too much into it, Dawn was being nice, Caleb was being sarcastic. That's how I saw it. *shrug*
definition of insane
Hostile 17
Okay so here's my thing about Xander (keep in mind, I just watched Dead Man's Party and right now, not the biggest fan). Early on in the piece, great for comic relief and support...as long as that support had absolutely nothing to do with a certain relationship. Harsh to the extreme with the "I told you so" attitude he had with Angel/Angelus. Yeah I get they don't have to get along in the slightest, but when he threw Jenny's death and Buffy's abandonment in her face, it's not supportive, it's downright cruel.
I almost agree with someone (I'm sorry, I forget who) who said that the Xander/Willow thing sorta just happened because of her relationship with Oz. He took it for granted that Willow would just always have a jones for him and when he realised that it wasn't entirely the case (Willow reaching out for Oz in Becoming rather than himself) that's when the tiny seed was planted and grew and made a mess of stuff eventually. Early on, Xander kinda the "eye" but more in the "states the obvious in the bluntest form" type guy.
After high school, everyone went to college and he didn't so he became more supportive and backgroundy and rather than being blunt, states the obvious guy, he was growing up and learning to use tact guy. Also Anya had a big impact on his growth, as well as the whole "Real Me" confidence/insecurity thing. He was in the circle, but not really in the circle and at the same time that kinda makes him the glue (or the "heart" as in primeval...the one that keeps everything going).
And then he became assured guy because he had a job that he was going places in, progressing and such. He had a new slighly innocent crush person in Dawn, an adult complicated relationship with Anya, a slayer to look after and a vampire to hate (who also took the innocent crush person away so he couldn't have been too happy about that)...so in times he reverted to the "I'm going to lash out at you when I don't like what's going on" and yet still kept on to the insightful heart with tact guy.
Meanwhile, I don't hate Xander....but there are quite a few times I wished Buffy would have knocked that greater than thou attitude off the pedestal a few times. Hey....maybe that's it....he had such high expectations of what his hero was supposed to be he couldn't get past the fact that she was so incredibly flawed and couldn't control his tongue.
I almost agree with someone (I'm sorry, I forget who) who said that the Xander/Willow thing sorta just happened because of her relationship with Oz. He took it for granted that Willow would just always have a jones for him and when he realised that it wasn't entirely the case (Willow reaching out for Oz in Becoming rather than himself) that's when the tiny seed was planted and grew and made a mess of stuff eventually. Early on, Xander kinda the "eye" but more in the "states the obvious in the bluntest form" type guy.
After high school, everyone went to college and he didn't so he became more supportive and backgroundy and rather than being blunt, states the obvious guy, he was growing up and learning to use tact guy. Also Anya had a big impact on his growth, as well as the whole "Real Me" confidence/insecurity thing. He was in the circle, but not really in the circle and at the same time that kinda makes him the glue (or the "heart" as in primeval...the one that keeps everything going).
And then he became assured guy because he had a job that he was going places in, progressing and such. He had a new slighly innocent crush person in Dawn, an adult complicated relationship with Anya, a slayer to look after and a vampire to hate (who also took the innocent crush person away so he couldn't have been too happy about that)...so in times he reverted to the "I'm going to lash out at you when I don't like what's going on" and yet still kept on to the insightful heart with tact guy.
Meanwhile, I don't hate Xander....but there are quite a few times I wished Buffy would have knocked that greater than thou attitude off the pedestal a few times. Hey....maybe that's it....he had such high expectations of what his hero was supposed to be he couldn't get past the fact that she was so incredibly flawed and couldn't control his tongue.
white avenger
white avenger
As for Xander being "the eye" of the group, that may be a problem. Remember the old saying about pointing out the mote in someone else's eye while missing the beam in your own? That's Xander. He quite often spent more time judging others than he did in seeing his own mistakes. As for Buffy's assorted boyfriends, the only one he ever liked was a human version of Sgt. Rock, who seemed to be one of his personal heroes. Then again, maybe he just had a crush on Captain Cardboard.
caitaintdead
caiters gonna cait
I haven't liked Xander for many years now. He's arrogant and nasty and selfish.
But he definitely had his place on the show, I guess I can see Xander as almost an anchor into the real world from the world of demons and vampires and slayers.
I often wonder why Xander couldn't have been made into a more likable character though.... When I sit down to watch Buffy with new recruits so many immediately just can't understand Xander. They don't see themselves in him (which I think was possibly the intention), but instead a popular opinion is 'Who's this <insertbodyparthere>head?"
Lastly, Xander having flaws isn't what makes him likable and accessible - it's what makes him horrible! Lots of people have insecurities, but it's no excuse for being selfish and saying hurtful comments to the people that actually do appreciate you.
(Anyone guess from my highly unintelligent ramblings that I don't like Xander???)
But he definitely had his place on the show, I guess I can see Xander as almost an anchor into the real world from the world of demons and vampires and slayers.
I often wonder why Xander couldn't have been made into a more likable character though.... When I sit down to watch Buffy with new recruits so many immediately just can't understand Xander. They don't see themselves in him (which I think was possibly the intention), but instead a popular opinion is 'Who's this <insertbodyparthere>head?"
Lastly, Xander having flaws isn't what makes him likable and accessible - it's what makes him horrible! Lots of people have insecurities, but it's no excuse for being selfish and saying hurtful comments to the people that actually do appreciate you.
(Anyone guess from my highly unintelligent ramblings that I don't like Xander???)