What was Joss' endgame in the Buffyverse?

[danajsparks]

My point was more that Joss probably didn't know back in, say, S2 that the show would air for five more seasons. Like, it's pretty clear that, when he wrote S2, he was expecting there to be at least a S3. But what if he had already known, then, that there would be a S7?

One of my favorite shows is Babylon 5, and one of the main reasons I love it is because it was written to be a five season story. Seemingly random stuff happens in the first season that turns out to be really important in later seasons.

 

[brinkster130]

I think the endgame will be a group of extremely flawed friends who still believe in themselves, each other, and their mission. I don't think they'll ever truly step away from the fight unless they permanently die.

Well, my real question was whether Joss means for us to hate the characters in the end - I guess I titled the thread poorly.

🙂

You know, I do think he intentionally shows us over and over that these characters we've fallen in love with are far from perfect. But, it's realistic, people are flawed and the more you get to really know someone the more you see these flaws. Sometimes you can get past that (with some effort) and still like or love them and sometimes you just can't.

 

[thetopher]

My point was more that Joss probably didn't know back in, say, S2 that the show would air for five more seasons. Like, it's pretty clear that, when he wrote S2, he was expecting there to be at least a S3. But what if he had already known, then, that there would be a S7?

One of my favorite shows is Babylon 5, and one of the main reasons I love it is because it was written to be a five season story. Seemingly random stuff happens in the first season that turns out to be really important in later seasons.

I'm pretty certain that SMG signed on for a certain number of years after S2- might've been three or five I'm not sure.

And, about B5, its actually widely known that they thought that they weren't gonna get their last season (they thought that they were gonna be cancelled) so tied up the whole 'Shadow War' plotline a year earlier and then had to pad out the final year.

It's really sad that pretty much every sci-fi show back then that didn't have 'Star Trek' in the title had to constantly worry about cancellation/renewal. 🙁

 

[danajsparks]

I'm pretty certain that SMG signed on for a certain number of years after S2- might've been three or five I'm not sure.

From what I understand, actors' contracts really don't mean much when it comes to deciding whether or not to cancel a show. I think that's mostly determined year by year based on ratings. But maybe that's more true now than it was 15 years ago?

And, about B5, its actually widely known that they thought that they weren't gonna get their last season (they thought that they were gonna be cancelled) so tied up the whole 'Shadow War' plotline a year earlier and then had to pad out the final year.

Oh, yeah, I realize that. They had to make several big changes along the way, like bringing in Bruce Boxleitner, but the major plot-lines of the series were definitely planned from the beginning.

 

[Lyri]

But, it's realistic, people are flawed and the more you get to really know someone the more you see these flaws. Sometimes you can get past that (with some effort) and still like or love them and sometimes you just can't.

I think this is a good answer.

Joss showed us that every one of his characters had some major, major flaws. Good guy, bad guy, soul or no soul, it didn't matter, Joss showed us the worst in all of them, but only after he showed us the best of them.

It's our job to see if we can look past the flaws and still see and remember the character we fell in love with, and sometimes we can and sometimes we can't.

I know, personally, that I could never get back the love I had for Willow after S4 and any affection I had for Spike goes right out the window after S5. And that's just a personal preference. Everyone else, I can see past everything.

 

[EVIL UU]

Well, my real question was whether Joss means for us to hate the characters in the end - I guess I titled the thread poorly.

Oh. Well, I don't think that it's intentional then. It's just how it is, well-written characters are supposed to be hated and loved. Well-written characters are like humans, there are good things about them, there are bad things about them, things to love, things to hate. Then all those things get into the brains of the readers or the viewers, are filtered and rectified by their personalities, experiences and memories and thus an emotional response is formed. The character gives you a loaded gun and you either pull the trigger or you don't. Well, unless it's a bland character you just don't give a shit about, then you just leave them with that gun so they can hopefully put themselves out of their misery and stop polluting the work of art you are consuming. Thing is, the characters will be hated or loved regardless of author's intention because emotional response is not exactly based on reason. It's like with people.

My mother has a friend, a best friend since high-school actually, I even used to call her "aunt" when I was a kid. She's a truly good person, she's never done anything bad to me and guess what, I still hate that bitch. I can't stand her. I will never let her know how I feel about her, I will never do her wrong in any way and because of her relationship with my mom I will help her out if she ever needs my help but that's just how I feel about her. It makes no sense, it's irrational but I still boil inside whenever I see her stupid face. Bitch.

Yeah. People will love or hate a character and the author can only influence it to an extend. For example, you might hate Spike because you are a victim of a sexual assault or you might hate him just because. Similarly, I like Willow. There is a lot of reasons to hate Willow, I get that, I mean, I'm often the hate train's engine driver here but guess what, I don't care. I still like her, the more of a bitch she is the more I do. I can rationalize it, there is a lot of reasons to like Willow too after all but the truth is, the character just resonates with me. Certainly because of what the author did, but not because of one particular thing or a set of things. Point is, I don't think that it's even possible to make a well-written character universally hated. There will always be something to love about them.

 

[ladydorotea]

... showed us that every one of his characters had some major, major flaws. Good guy, bad guy, soul or no soul, it didn't matter, Joss showed us the worst in all of them, but only after he showed us the best of them.

I tend to disagree with every character had some 'major' flaws and were shown at their best - their worst. Most of the characters in the show actually have had rather average human flaws and were never shown to do anything incredibly bad. There point is though... these generally 'good' characters are mostly dead ( I am looking at Joyce, Jenny, Tara, Fred, Larry, Harmony ( pre-vamp), and even Jonathan.)

Which makes a good point about Joss style in drama and storytelling: he cannot manage characters that exhibit normal range of emotions and behaviors for long - he gets tired of them and kills and/or breaks them. I don't even think this is conscious - more subconscious, and is also the result of consuming/implementing too many sub-par horror/sci-fi tropes in his formative years. Nobody is perfect. Whedon often lacks subtlety and ability to plot long-term and sophisticated. So he goes for 'easy' shock value and then just dismisses the consequences as something unintended. Yes, I am looking at the Twilight arc in particular, but also at S6 and specifically ( thanks god! unimplemented) gang rape of Inara in Firefly.

 

[Yosso]

I don't see this as a particularly Joss thing, it's just his unique way of trying to keep things interesting. Yes, it's nice to have everybody live happily ever after and all that, but isn't that kind of dull? In storytelling in general you need some obstacle, some failure and heartache - and in the Buffyverse that's more than often death seeing as their supernatural world is a rather extreme one where death is common (the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer after all, death is a pretty key theme in the show). So yeah, a key part of Joss' agenda in the show is death, and it makes sense.

Though I do agree that although it's important for characters to have low points, the fact that most of the main characters ended on a low at the end of S7 kind of sucked. One of the many reasons I'm not a S7 fan.

I reckon Joss' ultimate aim nearer the end of the series was to be "realist" but generally in realism, you notice the negative more so than the positive.

Oh. Well, I don't think that it's intentional then. It's just how it is, well-written characters are supposed to be hated and loved. Well-written characters are like humans, there are good things about them, there are bad things about them, things to love, things to hate.

Absolutely, that's why I think Joss was aiming for realism. Though I don't think it always needs to be so extreme, you can love a character but mildly be annoyed by little things about them and I'd still say they're a well written character. Maybe not a very well rounded character, but well-written nonetheless. I'd put Tara in this category if I'm honest.

 

[VaderSpike24]

Interesting factoid: In all four of Joss's tv shows, the last death of each show happens to be my favorite character of the franchise.
Buffy: Spike
Angel: Wesley
Firefly/Serenity: Wash
Dollhouse: Topher
(I'm not a big fan of Dollhouse, but I watcheed the 2nd season to see what it was and watched it until the end.)

Not to mention Dawn AND Kennedy survived Buffy.

 

[EVIL UU]

@Yosso
I think that authenticity is a better word here. In my opinion the way BtVS characters are depicted is nowhere near realistic. Take Xander for instance. This guy's been on the front line for 7 years straight, horrors he's seen, shit he's been through - just a ridiculous amount when you sum it all up. Does it affect him in any way, psychologically? Any traumas, issues? No, Xander just shrugs it off like some kind of a goddamn superhero. It's better with Willow and Buffy, there is some token dealing alright but it's still mostly a joke. Buffy in season 7 should be completely mental, not even Dru level crazy, more like some "Normal Again" stuff or Kratos doing drugs like Charlie Sheen type of action. By the way, wouldn't that be awesome?

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

@ladydorotea

Whedon often lacks subtlety and ability to plot long-term and sophisticated.

This, so much.

 

[Nowhere]

@Yosso
I think that authenticity is a better word here. In my opinion the way BtVS characters are depicted is nowhere near realistic. Take Xander for instance. This guy's been on the front line for 7 years straight, horrors he's seen, shit he's been through - just a ridiculous amount when you sum it all up. Does it affect him in any way, psychologically? Any traumas, issues? No, Xander just shrugs it off like some kind of a goddamn superhero. It's better with Willow and Buffy, there is some token dealing alright but it's still mostly a joke. Buffy in season 7 should be completely mental, not even Dru level crazy, more like some "Normal Again" stuff or Kratos doing drugs like Charlie Sheen type of action.

Buffy should be completely mental in season 7? Really?

Ok, to be fair, a person in Buffy's situation, for one thing, ought to be a lot more paranoid than she is in the name of self-preservation, but it is pretty hard to draw parallels as to how "real" people would behave in the world of BtVS simply because Buffy is not a completely serious show to begin with. It is not meant to be a realistic simulation of a world with demons and magic. If it was, it would have probably sucked as a TV show, by the way.

 

[EVIL UU]

@Nowhere
Well, yeah, that's my point, realistic is not the word I'd ever use to describe BtVS or the show's characters.

Buffy should be completely mental in season 7? Really?

Yeah, really. Buffy goes catatonic in season 5, tries to kill herself in season 6 and talks to a dead mirror person in season 7. Not exactly a paragon of mental health and she's the slayer, she's supernatural.

 

[Yosso]

@Nowhere
Well, yeah, that's my point, realistic is not the word I'd ever use to describe BtVS or the show's characters.



Yeah, really. Buffy goes catatonic in season 5, tries to kill herself in season 6 and talks to a dead mirror person in season 7. Not exactly a paragon of mental health and she's the slayer, she's supernatural.

The dead mirror person you're referring to is the First?

I think in S7 Buffy gets tougher because of all the things she's been through, perhaps a bit too tough - almost icy and unfeeling. So I'd say it makes sense from that perspective.

 

[Airam]

I think perhaps Tara was the only one to have died a martyr? The only one who's character Joss didnt completely soil? Not blaming him, I love him, its just the way he tortures us, lol. Just thinking on if its possible Tara is the only completely pure character hes written....?

 

[bespangeled]

Well. I guess I'm an outlier. I like my characters struggling to master themselves, trying to accept some things about themselves that are hard to accept, hard to move on from. It's the characters who have no real flaws that I find dull.

Not a big Xander fan here, and that is in part because Xander grows the least of all of them. I don't believe it's a coincidence that when he does something wrong he's never called on it. Because he doesn't own his mistakes he never has the chance to deal with him, develop the skills he needs to move forward.

Willow suffers from the same issue, but it's so much more dramatic. Willow is a clear picture of someone who tries to find a way to skip all that discontent and disappointment that life holds. It isn't until she alienates Tara (by using magic to avoid actually having a confrontation) that it even begins to penetrate. It's when she starts to handle her own issues (first by denial), has to understand that events and outcomes will not always be what she wants that she begins to mature. (BTW - this is a cursory look, and I love Willow).

Oh, and I think Kaylee is also an innocent in the Jossverse.

 

[Xin Rong]

Joss is too steeped in existentialism to give anyone a happy ending - if life is without meaning then happy endings don't necessarily exist - his shows, in my view, all deal with this kind of existential crisis.

I think that becomes the main conceit in Buffy and Angel especially - particuarly with the latter, which is rife with existential motifs:

"If nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"