What would you have done?

[brinkster130]

Brinkster, it was a slap in Wesley's face that his *family* didn't care enough to actually listen to his reasons for doing what he did. They acted like idiots. They had gone through a lot of shit together, and ONE thing happen, and they all turn against one of theirs without even letting him speak first? WTF! I would have reacted this way weither it was Fred, Gunn, Cordy or anyone else too...

Yes, I think peoples feelings were hurt all around. I do think that the Angel Investigations gang could have reached out to Wesley and talked to him; but I can see why they didn't.

I guess where we see differently is that I believe that Cordy, Fred and Gunn (Lorne is questionable IMO) would have done anything to save Connor's life. People had been after Connor for some time and they all worked together to try and keep him safe. I guess I just don't understand why Wesley thought they wouldn't want to save Connor.

 

[Anya2012]

I remember The Master saying prophecies " are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything..."

 

[zobothehobo]

Brinkster, it was a slap in Wesley's face that his *family* didn't care enough to actually listen to his reasons for doing what he did. They acted like idiots. They had gone through a lot of shit together, and ONE thing happen, and they all turn against one of theirs without even letting him speak first? WTF! I would have reacted this way weither it was Fred, Gunn, Cordy or anyone else too...

No. The baby of the family was gone... taken to the most hellish of hell dimensions and they were supposed to listen to HIM? They were supposed to listen to his reasons? Say "Ok, you had your good reasons, it's ok now." No. As much as I hate her, Fred says it best: "Gunn and I found your notes about... the baby. The prophecy. You took him away 'case you thought Angel was gonna kill him. You were trying to protect him. Both of them. I just wanted you to know I understand that. I also wanted to say -- what Angel tried to do to you was wrong, and I'm sorry. But he was right to blame you, Wesley. He didn't see it coming, but here it comes -- You should've come to us. You should've trusted us instead of going to Holtz behind our backs. You were supposed to be our friend and you didn't even --" Wesley had his reasons, sure... but he went behind the family's back. He stabbed them in the back and allied himself with the enemy instead of coming to them with a problem. Real families don't do that. He should have told them what was going on... told SOMEONE. If I were him, I probably would have called Cordy. I mean she is... was.. the closest thing to a mother that little boy had and she deserved the right to know what was going on. She had a more rational thought process than Angel by that point so he should have told her. The point is he should have told someone. But no, Wesley decided to go at it alone. He decided to make the decision about what was best for Connor himself without consulting ANYONE in the family, but rather consulting the people who wanted to hurt Angel the most. He decided to put his trust in Hotlz and Justine and that was the wrong choice. Because of that choice, Connor was stripped of his childhood and Angel of his fatherhood. As Fred said, they understood the reasons to take Connor... but there aren't reasons for not trusting the rest of the gang but rather trusting Hotlz. There just aren't.

 

[citiegal17]

No one is talking about teenage Connor. So regardless of if I agree with you or not thats not the debate. Baby Connor, the little boy that was kidnapped was innocent. You clearly seem to hate Connor but he's not the focus of the thread.


Well no I don't hate Connor I just find his characterization at the end of ATS 4 very outputting. I've never denied that baby Connor was innocent and said as much, so I think you misunderstood me. Connor's character was actually likable for me in the begining, despite the fact he was annoying, but I never hated him.

 

[Tome]

No. The baby of the family was gone... taken to the most hellish of hell dimensions and they were supposed to listen to HIM? They were supposed to listen to his reasons? Say "Ok, you had your good reasons, it's ok now." No. As much as I hate her, Fred says it best: "Gunn and I found your notes about... the baby. The prophecy. You took him away 'case you thought Angel was gonna kill him. You were trying to protect him. Both of them. I just wanted you to know I understand that. I also wanted to say -- what Angel tried to do to you was wrong, and I'm sorry. But he was right to blame you, Wesley. He didn't see it coming, but here it comes -- You should've come to us. You should've trusted us instead of going to Holtz behind our backs. You were supposed to be our friend and you didn't even --" Wesley had his reasons, sure... but he went behind the family's back. He stabbed them in the back and allied himself with the enemy instead of coming to them with a problem. Real families don't do that. He should have told them what was going on... told SOMEONE. If I were him, I probably would have called Cordy. I mean she is... was.. the closest thing to a mother that little boy had and she deserved the right to know what was going on. She had a more rational thought process than Angel by that point so he should have told her. The point is he should have told someone. But no, Wesley decided to go at it alone. He decided to make the decision about what was best for Connor himself without consulting ANYONE in the family, but rather consulting the people who wanted to hurt Angel the most. He decided to put his trust in Hotlz and Justine and that was the wrong choice. Because of that choice, Connor was stripped of his childhood and Angel of his fatherhood. As Fred said, they understood the reasons to take Connor... but there aren't reasons for not trusting the rest of the gang but rather trusting Hotlz. There just aren't.

Yes they were supposed to hear him out before putting him aside like that. They owed him that after all he did for them in the past. Fred's speech was completely over the top at the end. This is one of the times I disliked her. She abused the fact he couldn't talk to throw shit at him, knowing he couldn't reply back.

He didn't stab anybody. HE got stabbed. As I explained in my last post, if Justine had not backstabbed him, you wouldn't have said the same thing. It's easy to talk afterward. He didn't ally himself with Holtz either. All he did was TALK to them. He was working his OWN game.

And as for Cordy, I also explained why he didn't do that. As YOU just said, she was the closest thing to a mother that Connor had and she loved Angel. There's no way she would have agreed to take him away from his father. Nor would she have kept her mouth shut. Feelings would have entered the whole thing, while Wes could go over it.

Again, he did not trust Holtz. The only thing I'd admit is that he shouldn't have believed Justine about the whole Holtz beating her part. That was his mistake, he didn't read her well enough. But who can blame him about it?

And no, it's not ONLY because of his decision that Connor got taken to Quor'Toth. Read my previous post, I've put other reasons.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Well no I don't hate Connor I just find his characterization at the end of ATS 4 very outputting. I've never denied that baby Connor was innocent and said as much, so I think you misunderstood me. Connor's character was actually likable for me in the begining, despite the fact he was annoying, but I never hated him.

Ok sorry if I misunderstood you.

Yes they were supposed to hear him out before putting him aside like that. They owed him that after all he did for them in the past. Fred's speech was completely over the top at the end. This is one of the times I disliked her. She abused the fact he couldn't talk to throw shit at him, knowing he couldn't reply back.

Lol Tom this is the time you choose to disagree with her? Shes right. Maybe she chose not the best time to tell him, but really what is a good time? He needed to hear that. The truth hurts. He made a mistake, and instead of feeling sorry for himself he should have apologized.

He didn't stab anybody. HE got stabbed. As I explained in my last post, if Justine had not backstabbed him, you wouldn't have said the same thing. It's easy to talk afterward. He didn't ally himself with Holtz either. All he did was TALK to them. He was working his OWN game.

How can he not be aligned with them, and yet she betrayed him. Betraying him implies they had an agreement of some kind, that they were working together. That they were alligned, if only for the time. Wesley still chose to speak to them, go to them, whatever you want to call his actions, he chose that over going to his friends.

And as for Cordy, I also explained why he didn't do that. As YOU just said, she was the closest thing to a mother that Connor had and she loved Angel. There's no way she would have agreed to take him away from his father. Nor would she have kept her mouth shut. Feelings would have entered the whole thing, while Wes could go over it.

No she wouldn't have agreed with him, she would have helped Wesley come up with a plan. She was Wesley's friend and she would trust him too. But Cordelia wasn't really an option I do see that. I think you're right on this. She wasn't there. But Gunn and Fred were.

Again, he did not trust Holtz. The only thing I'd admit is that he shouldn't have believed Justine about the whole Holtz beating her part. That was his mistake, he didn't read her well enough. But who can blame him about it?

He believed her and ignored the years of friendship. He believed her but didnt trust his own friends?? How does this make sense? This is where I see his mistake. He chooses to put his trust, his belief, in this woman who is working for the enemy over trusting his close friends, his family.

And no, it's not ONLY because of his decision that Connor got taken to Quor'Toth. Read my previous post, I've put other reasons.

I don't know if that was meant at me or Zoà« but I did read your post. I know Wesley isn't solely to blame. But if you read my post. I said the reason its more painful is because he is Angel's friend. It's betrayal. It's easier to be angry at the enemy, and harder to forgive a friend.

 

[zobothehobo]

And no, it's not ONLY because of his decision that Connor got taken to Quor'Toth. Read my previous post, I've put other reasons.

For everything other than this part, I'm agreeing with Katie and saying read her response for my response...

I am in no way saying Wesley was purely responsible for Connor being taken to Quor'Toth. The only people who didn't contribute to that were those who weren't there that night. But Wesley played a PIVOTAL role in this awful turn of events. Wesley and his actions are what made the whole thing possible. (Ok, Sahjhan and his actions started it, but Wesley was the first one to really take the bait). I know Wesley had no way of knowing he was taking the bait, but still... jumping up and deciding HE knew what was best and HE knew the full picture from a prophecy... That was irresponsible and he made the wrong choice. The wrong choice that lead to the awful horrible events of that night.

 

[Connor Holtz]

The one thing you need to understand is Wesley couldn't tell anyone at AI. They were and are all more Angel's friends, colleagues, and employees more so than they ever were Wesley's friends. Wesley couldn't risk telling anyone that closely tied to Angel in fear they would go right behind Wes's back to Angel, and tell him what Wesley was hiding from him. Wesley knew Angel was going to kill his son, so he had to act in accordance to get the child to safety. The main thing no one ever seems to remember or acknowledge is the GREAT sacrifice Wesley was making for this child. He was leaving all his friends behind, leaving a calling he believed in, packing up and going into the unknown without any plan or forethought of what his life would be like once he got there. All he cared for, was the welfare of this innocent child, he didn't want to see die at the hands of his father, who Wesley loved and didn't want to see his friend, have to live with the conscience of his own child's blood on his hands.

Wesley was willing to give it all up for his friend and his child. Too bad, he couldn't see that Wesley was lied to, tricked, manipulated and abused just like everyone else in this nefarious scheme to get rid of one's (Sahjhan) own arch-nemesis before he was old enough to kill him. (And an even greater plan by Jasmine to get Connor old enough to conceive her vessel but more on that on another time 😉)

 

[brinkster130]

The one thing you need to understand is Wesley couldn't tell anyone at AI. They were and are all more Angel's friends, colleges, and employees more so than they ever were Wesley's friends. Wesley couldn't risk telling anyone that closely tied to Angel in fear they would go right behind Wes's back to Angel, and tell him what Wesley was hiding from him. Wesley knew Angel was going to kill his son, so he had to act in accordance to get the child to safety. The main thing no one ever seems to remember or acknowledge is the GREAT sacrifice Wesley was making for this child. He was leaving all his friends behind, leaving a calling he believed in, packing up and going into the unknown without any plan or forethought of what his life would be like once he got there. All he cared for, was the welfare of this innocent child, he didn't want to see die at the hands of his father, who Wesley loved and didn't want to see his friend, have to live with the conscience of his own child's blood on his hands.

Wesley was willing to give it all up for his friend and his child. Too bad, he couldn't see that Wesley was lied to, tricked, manipulated and abused just like everyone else in this nefarious scheme to get rid of one's (Sahjhan) own arch-nemesis before he was old enough to kill him. (And an even greater plan by Jasmine to get Connor old enough to conceive her vessel but more on that on another time 😉)

Wesley had good intentions yes, I don't think anyone here is saying that he didn't. The problem I have with Wesley is that I don't believe that it was a decision he had to make on his own. I think I decided to do it on his own. I see your side and I completely understand that in your opinion Wesley couldn't trust his friends....I just don't see it that way at all. I think that Wesley made a huge mistake in not trusting his friends and an almost fatal one in trusting and having compassion for Justine.

I believe that Cordy would have been able to help Wesley. I think that she would have done anything to save Connor and I think that she would have been able to keep it from Angel if necessary. Cordy was best friends with Angel at this point and she was well aware of the damage he could do, I just don't see Cordy knowing about this prophecy and not trying to protect Connor.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Wesley should have said something. Instead, he took matters into his own hands and helped contributed the gang's road to disaster, which ended in S5.

 

[Kana]

I think the mistake he really made was going to Holtz. People forget that at this point Angel's behaviour was becoming increasing odd with even Gunn wondering whether he would hurt or kill his own friends. Lorne argues that Wesley did the best he could with the information he had. I don't think that's entirely true but I understand his actions. I totally get him not telling Angel about it and if Gunn and Fred are not prophecy experts, while they may have facilitated his escape they may have also told Angel. The person he really should have told was Lorne who can read people's destiny. My main point is that he didn't do anything that could never be forgiven. The plan mainly went wrong because he helped Justine which was an act of kindness. I totally understand Angel's anger because he was never going to get another chance at fatherhood.

Wes' bitterness was also understandable as he never even got the chance the explain himself. At the very least Fred showed him concern enough to turn up and say that Angel's attempted murder was wrong.

So in short, I'm not saying his actions were wise (going to Holtz was the most ill-advised part) but I don't think his actions were unforgivable considering his intentions.

I agree though, it is tempting to be the saviour or indeed play the saviour. It wasn't until Season 4 that I wanted Wes to 'wind his neck in' as they say. All the characters can be pigheaded at times but I don't recall Angel ever apologizing for his attempted murder. If you say that Angel did the wrong thing but his actions were understandable, erm, hello, care to extend that to Wes?

 

[brinkster130]

All the characters can be pigheaded at times but I don't recall Angel ever apologizing for his attempted murder. If you say that Angel did the wrong thing but his actions were understandable, erm, hello, care to extend that to Wes?

In all honesty I have trouble understanding and forgiving Wesley. Angel putting the pillow over Wesley's face was wrong, but he was acting out of utter sorrow and despair over the loss of his son. I think if Angel truly wanted to kill Wesley he could have, I don't believe for a second that those nurses would have been able to pull him away if he didn't want to be.

Wesley acted of fear and concern for Connor but he was also very selfish and careless with his actions. I have trouble forgiving Wesley and having sympathy for him in this situation because I believe that he put himself in this situation, he decided not to trust him friends, he decided to go to Holtz and he decided to trust Justine. For me this is when I thought Wesley's character took a turn for the worse.

Im not saying Wesley doesn't deserve to be forgiven or that he was the only one wrong in this situation, but IMO Wesley is the one I feel the least amount of sympathy for and it was his actions in this event that ruined his character for me.

 

[Kana]

In all honesty I have trouble understanding and forgiving Wesley. Angel putting the pillow over Wesley's face was wrong, but he was acting out of utter sorrow and despair over the loss of his son. I think if Angel truly wanted to kill Wesley he could have, I don't believe for a second that those nurses would have been able to pull him away if he didn't want to be.

Well I don't think he was trying to fluff his pillow but the fact that he said he understood it was hard for him to make the choice he did and he still attempted to smother him is suggestive not of righteous anger but focusing his rage on him because there is nowhere left to focus it on. He tried getting Connor back, that didn't work. He tried to attack Sahjhan, but that failed. Holtz was gone to Wes was the one who had to bare the brunt of his anger.

Wesley acted of fear and concern for Connor but he was also very selfish and careless with his actions. I have trouble forgiving Wesley and having sympathy for him in this situation because I believe that he put himself in this situation, he decided not to trust him friends, he decided to go to Holtz and he decided to trust Justine. For me this is when I thought Wesley's character took a turn for the worse.

Going to Holtz I agree wasn't the smartest move but I think Justine was right. Wesley sacrificed everything to protect the people he cared about, so I think calling him selfish is a bit of a stretch. He actually didn't trust Justine, hence the gun when he saw her, but he helped her because of his basic good nature. I also explained above as to why it was difficult to go to his friends.

Im not saying Wesley doesn't deserve to be forgiven or that he was the only one wrong in this situation, but IMO Wesley is the one I feel the least amount of sympathy for and it was his actions in this event that ruined his character for me.

Here's where I though his character got interesting, 😛, but we agree at least, although his actions were, misguided to say the least there were not unforgivable. That said although he's very grey in Season 4, he does try to do things with the best of intentions. Bringing Angel to the surface was utterly selfless and proves he's still basically a good man, that's when he's not too busy banging the enemy.

 

[Brandonxx93]

Had he not been stabbed, Wesley would probably research the prophecy further, discover it to be false and return Connor to his son. If we judge actions by their unforeseeable consequences, then Liam should've been blamed for stumbling out of that bar drunk, because it led to all the crimes Angelus committed.

Angel thinks he is fully responsible for all the crimes Angelus has done. That is why he is out to make amends with his past and helping everyone that is in need. He is sorry for all the things that he has done and apologizes for it. I dont ever think (or I cant remember) of Wesley saying sorry to Angel.

Plus Angelus doesnt have a soul. He kills with no remorse. On the other hand Welsey does have a soul and yet he still did what he did.

 

[Tome]

Lol Tom this is the time you choose to disagree with her? Shes right. Maybe she chose not the best time to tell him, but really what is a good time? He needed to hear that. The truth hurts. He made a mistake, and instead of feeling sorry for himself he should have apologized.

He needed his friends to let him explain himself. He knew what had just happened, he must have felt terrible enough already. What she did there was wrong and she let her emotions take over.

How can he not be aligned with them, and yet she betrayed him. Betraying him implies they had an agreement of some kind, that they were working together. That they were alligned, if only for the time. Wesley still chose to speak to them, go to them, whatever you want to call his actions, he chose that over going to his friends.

I meant she betrayed him as in she acted as if she had been beaten by Holtz just to get close to him and slice his throat. Probably the wrong term. I should have said she abused his good nature. He chooses to go to them because he knew they had interest in Angel and Connor at the time. He wanted to make sure Connor wouldn't be hurt in the upcoming fight. And it's not a choice between them and his friends... I already told you why he didn't speak to Gunn, Fred, Cordy, Lorne and Angel about the whole thing.

No she wouldn't have agreed with him, she would have helped Wesley come up with a plan. She was Wesley's friend and she would trust him too. But Cordelia wasn't really an option I do see that. I think you're right on this. She wasn't there. But Gunn and Fred were.

Apparently she wasn't that much his friend since she didn't give a shit about him when she came back(out of character much?). All she would have cared about was Angel and Connor. Her emotions would have came into it. Just like Gunn and Fred.

He believed her and ignored the years of friendship. He believed her but didnt trust his own friends?? How does this make sense? This is where I see his mistake. He chooses to put his trust, his belief, in this woman who is working for the enemy over trusting his close friends, his family.

I don't understand why you're even comparing these two things. It's not the same deal at all. He bought her act about how Holtz had used her, that's it. He didn't put his trust or belief in her for anything else.

I don't know if that was meant at me or Zoà« but I did read your post. I know Wesley isn't solely to blame. But if you read my post. I said the reason its more painful is because he is Angel's friend. It's betrayal. It's easier to be angry at the enemy, and harder to forgive a friend.

It's also easier to blame Wes because there wasn't an happy ending. He took Angel's son, yes. But again, he took him to save him, he took him to help Angel. Like B said, none of you seems to realize what kind of sacrifice Wesley was ready to do just to help his friend's son.

 

[MRNewman]

I always wondered why Wesley didn't just take Connor and run away himself? Why work with Holtz...ever.

If it were me, and I discovered that my friend was going to kill his child based on prophesy - I'd act too. But I would never, ever work with someone as untrustworthy as Holtz. I'd run, far - escape with Connor, if I didn't feel I could trust anyone. That said, don't know why he couldn't trust Gunn / Fred with this information. I never understood that. Both of them had seen changes in Angel's behavior and may have been interested in helping Wesley keep Connor away while they figured out as much as they could about the prophesy to understand it / find a way to thwart it.

 

[Connor Holtz]

I always wondered why Wesley didn't just take Connor and run away himself? Why work with Holtz...ever.

If it were me, and I discovered that my friend was going to kill his child based on prophesy - I'd act too. But I would never, ever work with someone as untrustworthy as Holtz. I'd run, far - escape with Connor, if I didn't feel I could trust anyone. That said, don't know why he couldn't trust Gunn / Fred with this information. I never understood that. Both of them had seen changes in Angel's behavior and may have been interested in helping Wesley keep Connor away while they figured out as much as they could about the prophesy to understand it / find a way to thwart it.

He wasn't working with Holtz. He may have meet with him and been given an ultimatum by Holtz but they were NOT aligned. Wesley was to take Connor and move away on his own. Last minute, Justine manipulated Wes into thinking Holtz attacked her so she could steal Connor from Wesley. Wesley was NEVER going to give the child to Holtz or ever meet up with him again.

 

[brinkster130]

I always wondered why Wesley didn't just take Connor and run away himself? Why work with Holtz...ever.

Yup, I don't think Wesley should have spent so much time talking to Holtz an Justine. Stopping to talk to Justine in the park the night he took baby Connor was a poor choice.

Another thing I wondered was why Wesley never questioned Holtz knowing about the prophesy. Welsey spent a good bit of time translating the prophesy; why would Holtz have known about the prophesy?

That said, I don't know why he couldn't trust Gunn / Fred with this information. I never understood that. Both of them had seen changes in Angel's behavior and may have been interested in helping Wesley keep Connor away while they figured out as much as they could about the prophesy to understand it / find a way to thwart it.

Exactly. Everyone had noticed a change in Angel's behavior. I think Wesley just chose not to trust his friends in this situation.

He wasn't working with Holtz. He may have meet with him and been given an ultimatum by Holtz but they were NOT aligned. Wesley was to take Connor and move away on his own. Last minute, Justine manipulated Wes into thinking Holtz attacked her so she could steal Connor from Wesley. Wesley was NEVER going to give the child to Holtz or ever meet up with him again.

True, he wasn't working with Holtz. Wesley knew the hatred Holtz had for Angel and for him to trust the woman who was working with Holtz who clearly was angry and dangerous was a very poor choice on Wesley's part.

Wesley may not have intended to give Connor to Holtz but his poor choices made it pretty easy for Holtz to take him...and that is on Wesley.

 

[Gotham]

I'm inclined to go along with xfivebyfive. I think the situation called for cool heads, for a sit down where a plan of action could be mapped out in the event that Angelus returns.

Wesley should have given Angel the choice to make. Connor was his son, not Wesley's. It was Angel's call to make. I think that after watching Angel on Buffy for 3 years, and on his own show for 3 years (at the time), it's clear that Angel is the kind of individual who will make the hard decisions even though they may cause him significant pain.

Wesley should have seen that and trusted him. I really think that it's inexplicable that he could trust Holtz in this situation.

 

[Ojuice5001]

One thing to remember is that Wesley could have kidnapped Connor without forming an alliance with Angel's sworn enemy. He could have done what Holtz said he was going to do: skip town, raise Connor like a son in an isolated place. Surely Angel would rather trust Wesley with his son than Holtz (especially since, of course, Holtz was planning all along to make Connor into a warrior against Angel, but Wesley never would have planned anything like that).

So why exactly did Wesley need to work with Holtz? How did that help his goal of averting the prophecy? Okay, so he got some information about the prophecy from Holtz, but there's no sign that this was extremely valuable information that Wesley couldn't have gotten from any other source. Just trading information doesn't create the kind of close cooperation that Wesley seemed to think he needed to have with Holtz. Again, Wesley was able to perpetrate the actual kidnapping just by walking out the door with Connor; he didn't need any help with that. And it's true that even if Connor were living on a ranch in the middle of nowhere, he wouldn't be safe from either his demon enemies or from being recaptured by Angel--but this objection goes for both versions of the plan--"Holtz raises Connor" and "Wesley raises Connor." So I am rather unclear on what kind of help Wesley really needed from Holtz, that would justify letting Holtz anywhere near Connor.

So what did Wesley think was going to happen? He didn't realize that Holtz intended to capture Connor for himself; that seems clear from what Justine said before she stabbed him. And as I said in the last paragraph, Wesley must not have intended to be Connor's foster father, for he could have done that just fine without forming his alliance with Holtz. It also seems clear that both Wesley and Holtz wanted for Connor to be raised to adulthood by some parents; there is no reason for thinking that either of them would have considered killing Connor. Basically, the whole thing seems a little unclear.