What's up with Spike (and Buffy)?

[gite63]

BUFFY: Angel... and Spike? I literally fell in love with the same guy twice?

So, Buffy is in love with Spike – and dating him. And Spike, who has been in love with her for ages, now is a puddle of insecurity...

• Spike didn't tell Buffy right away about his nightmare, because he was afraid of losing her;
• Next, he was afraid of her poking around his mind and seeing his ugly past as well as who he really is now;
• To Giles, he said that “she always picks him. Always.” (meaning Angel);
• To Dawn, when the girl said “Buffy is your girlfriend now”, Spike reasoned that “the Slayer ain't no one's little bit. If she was... wouldn't be her”, and “reckon it's only a matter of time before she comes to her senses”, about Buffy being with him.

Buffy, on the other hand, is doing nothing but showing her care and trust in him.

• She said he meant so much to her: You're one of the few people in this world I can count on. Not just to be there for me, but to be honest with me.
• She said she has fell in love with him – not to him, but in his presence, at least...
• She trusted him enough to risk her life, dropping the Scythe and being totally vulnerable to be killed, explaining later that she just gave him something he gives her everyday - strength.
• When Angel showed up, she said she didn't know how she felt about Angel (due to everything that had happened between them the last time they saw each other), but she didn't second guess for a minute her relationship with Spike.

In BtVS Season 10 #22, Spike will have a “conversation with an old friend that leads him to question the patterns of his relationship with Buffy.” So, who is this old friend of Spike that will lead him to question the patterns of his relationship with Buffy?

Would be Dylan, a girl he met briefly and had a nice time with (Spike: Into the Light)? Does she qualify as an old friend? She showed up in San Francisco looking for Spike and saying he was “the one who got away” (issue #7). Apparently, she is in love with him; but what could she say to make Spike question his relationship with Buffy?

Or, the old friend could be Clem; this one makes more sense. They know each other for years and Clem is in a “relationship” with Harmony: he is in love with her and she just uses him – still, Clem is loyal to her, and he doesn't leave her side. But that's not how Buffy and Spike's relationship works anymore, so which pattern would Spike be questioning?

That he always has been very straightforward about how he feels, and she still refuses to say the L word to him, or tell him how she feels about all she saw in the mind walking, as she promised? But in the past few weeks, her actions have been much more telling than any words...

Buffy's pattern was always want what she couldn't have:

XANDER: It seems she rather courageously broke out of her pattern of dysfunction to reach out to you.

It isn't the case anymore: she is with someone she wants and can be - and now it's Spike who seems afraid to be finally happy - exactly like the first night they spent together, when he was afraid to fall sleep, wake up the next morning and not have her by his side anymore.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Well, Angel said it wouldn't last. A slayer and a vampire aren't supposed to exist together, much less become involved with one another.

 

[gite63]

a slayer and a vampire aren't supposed to exist together, much less become involved.

This is a mantra that many people recite over and over. Why aren't they (Slayers and vamps with souls) supposed to exist together or become involved? Why couldn't Buffy be with Angel if there wasn't a curse (and if she still was in love with him, of course 😀)?

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Haha well there's no rules that say they can't (or shouldn't) but there must be some grand reason that Buffy can't hold a long-lasting relationship with either of them (aside from Joss' dislike of happy couples).

 

[gite63]

Well, Angel said it wouldn't last.

Archaeus said that he worked on things that already were there, like jealousy. Angel (under Archaeus's influence) tried to kill Spike out of jealousy; he said that out of jealousy...
 

but there must be some grand reason that Buffy can't hold a long-lasting relationship with either of them

Buffy didn't have a long-lasting relationship with Angel because of the curse; with Spike, they are at the beginning of their realtioship; with Riley, things didn't work that well...

aside from Joss' dislike of happy couples

Now, that's very true.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Archaeus said that he worked on things that already were there, like jealousy. Angel (under Archaeus's influence) tried to kill Spike out of jealousy; he said that out of jealousy...

Angel will always believe it, no matter what, because he will always be in love with Buffy, no matter what. A little part of him's convinced that Spuffy is doomed to fail.

As for how long it'll actually last, well that seems to be in question now, doesn't it? 😉
 
To be fair I do think Buffy will end up with Spike or Angel eventually, but until that day comes, the writers are gonna have them break up and get back together many times.

 

[white avenger]

Well, Angel said it wouldn't last. A slayer and a vampire aren't supposed to exist together, much less become involved with one another.

And it probably won't, given that all of this takes place in a universe created and controlled by an evil little troll names Whedon who absolutely despises the term "happily ever after." Nobody gets to be happy for more than a couple of Seasons, then it all goes to crap again. But Angel's reason for saying it, "We're talking about Spike here," is sheer hypocrisy. Judging by Spike's record with Dru, he's an extremely faithful guy, even when the lady in question isn't, and I seem to recall that Angel was the one who came between them. That sets me to wondering if he's planning on making a move on Buffy at the first opportunity.
 

As for how long it'll actually last, well that seems to be in question now, doesn't it? 😉

With the end of the Season fast approaching, I could see this as the final issue cliffhanger. to be continued later in Season 11.

 

[gite63]

To be fair I do think Buffy will end up with Spike or Angel eventually, but until that day comes, the writers are gonna have them break up and get back together many times.

With whom she will be at the end, I don't know. But I think that with Angel, she would end up only if the Buffyverse ended for good, because Angel had his own show, and now has his own title; unless he loses it, it's hard to come up with a way to have Buffy in BtVS and Angel in Angel & Faith (or Angel) together.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

With whom she will be at the end, I don't know. But I think that with Angel, she would end up only if the Buffyverse ended for good, because Angel had his own show, and now has his own title; unless he loses it, it's hard to come up with a way to have Buffy in BtVS and Angel in Angel & Faith (or Angel) together.

Or unless one series ends before the other. Or something else.

Me, I like how things are going right now, but seeing how this is Spuffy, which tends to upset the natural order of things... 😉

 

[gite63]

Or unless one series ends before the other. Or something else.

I believe, if the Buffyverse will go on indefinitely, the BtVS title will be the Chosen one... I don't know which were the reasons for Joss kill the Angel title...

 

[thetopher]

So, Buffy is in love with Spike – and dating him. And Spike, who has been in love with her for ages, now is a puddle of insecurity...

Maybe because Buffy is suddenly 'attainable' and that was a big part of her appeal to him. Now Spike has her and he's convinced that he's going to lose her or that its not real. Why? Because the relationship has never been a equal one.
Buffy has never treated Spike like an equal nor as Spike ever acted as such- he always supports her, never questions her or doubts her even when she doubts herself. He's her yes-man and now she's saying yes to him. He's completely thrown.

Also, we know that all this has something to do with the Book. There will be a revelation about the book affecting reality, not just magic and Spike will, with his mass of insecurites, dump Buffy because he thinks 'of course it isn't real', break her heart and go off somewhere else to do whatever, maybe alone but maybe with Dylan.

Who knows what happens in S11 but apparently a lot of the Scoobies are going to go their separate ways.

Well, Angel said it wouldn't last. A slayer and a vampire aren't supposed to exist together, much less become involved with one another.

Not just Angel, but the Mayor (a hundred years old and not without wisdom) and also Joyce Summers. Mortal and vampire is fundimentally unhealthy relationship-wise. Added to that the fact that the first instinct of the slayer deep inside Buffy is to kill the vampire/demon and I'm convinced that its pretty much a doomed thing. This goes for BOTH Angel and Spike.

Unless one of them becomes human but I'm not even sure the Shanshu thing is available anymore- not with new magic and such. The laws of magic being rewritten kinda throws things like that into the air.

And for those that dismiss Angel's speech as petty I beg to differ. Yes Archeus made Angel attack Spike through jealousy by working on him over time- but then again Archeaus made Spike want to kill Buffy INSTANTLY and he's in love with her, so actually how strong were those feelings of jealousy in Angel really? Or is Spike just really weak-willed/easily mind-controlled?

Bottom line: Angel knows vampire/mortal love and he knows Spike, he knows Spike's pattern of behaviour. immortals have cycles both Angel and Spike fit this- love and redemption respectively, that's what the conversations in the sewer were all about. That's lamp-shading the issue through other characters discussions, not just Angel.
Angel's speech seems like classic foreshadowing to me, the way it was all laid out- it means something and that something will be explored in a future issue it seems.

Judging by Spike's record with Dru, he's an extremely faithful guy, even when the lady in question isn't, and I seem to recall that Angel was the one who came between them. That sets me to wondering if he's planning on making a move on Buffy at the first opportunity.

I remember Spike sleeping with Pearl in a flashback in 'A Dark Place'- he was with Dru then. Plus I think you're talking about Angelus doing that to Spike and Dru, not Angel.
You really think Angel is the type to maliciously sabotage somebody else's relationship? When has he ever done anything like this? Maybe with Buffy/Riley?...Nope he walked away stating 'I don't like him' but that's about it, he left Buffy alone.
Then there was Cordy/Groo? No, he sent them on vacation to have some happiness.
Well Spuffy surely? Nope, he didn't interfere- Buffy told him to go after he gave her the amulet and he went. So really, where's your evidence?

Maybe its not enough that your guy succeeds right? The other guy HAS the fail and look bad in the process.

 

[gite63]

He's completely thrown.

And maybe here is the answer (to which pattern would Spike be questioning?) He is insecure because he is completely thrown - due to how thing worked before - and after the converstaion with the old friend, finally he will see the light. Spike: Into the light. I think it's Dylan!

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Lol what is it with this Dylan? If she's so important how come they didn't mention her before Season Eight (or whenever)?

 

[gite63]

And for those that dismiss Angel's speech as petty I beg to differ. Yes Archeus made Angel attack Spike through jealousy by working on him over time- but then again Archeaus made Spike want to kill Buffy INSTANTLY

Arcaheus worked individually: Spike, his thrill in killing Slayers, and Angel, the jealousy he was feeling at that moment, because he had just found out about Buffy and Spike, so it was a strong feeling.
 

Lol what is it with this Dylan? If she's so important how come they didn't mention her before Season Eight (or whenever)?

She appeared on Spike: Into the Light - which isn't even canon. Then, she appeared on issue #7, out of nowhere, looking for Spike. Then, Christos Gage said she will be back...

 

[Samuel Reyes]

She appeared on Spike: Into the Light - which isn't even canon. Then, she appeared on issue #7, out of nowhere, looking for Spike. Then, Christos Gage said she will be back...

They better not pull some lame 'third-act misunderstanding' crap where Spuffy call it quits because Spike doesn't know who to choose.

 

[gite63]

They better not pull some lame 'third-act misunderstanding' crap where Spuffy call it quits because Spike doesn't know who to choose.

Well, they spent one day together, they just kissed once, and then she appears in San Francisco saying she is looking for him beacuse "he is the one who got away"...

 

[Samuel Reyes]

Well, they spent one day together, they just kissed once, and then she appears in San Francisco saying she is looking for him beacuse "he is the one who got away"...

They do that a lot on TV/movies, where two characters seem to be in love after they've spent literally an hour's worth of time together.

 

[thetopher]

Lol what is it with this Dylan? If she's so important how come they didn't mention her before Season Eight (or whenever)?

She's a big deal because James Marsters specifically invented her as a romantic interest for Spike that was specifically not Buffy, and Dylan's based on his real-life wife (yes, seriously).

Arcaheus worked individually: Spike, his thrill in killing Slayers, and Angel, the jealousy he was feeling at that moment, because he had just found out about Buffy and Spike, so it was a strong feeling.

Still the targets are different and I saw a lot of criticism leveled at Angel for doing what he did and NOTHING leveled at Spike, even though their targets/motivations were so different. Spike loves Buffy and then tries to (intantly) kill her because of mind-control and that's one thing, but when Angel (slowly) gets mind-controlled into killing Spike then he's suddenly a jealous asshole? Double standard.


Like I said, I think Spike's insecurites, coupled with some pointless 'the Book did some of this' reveletaion (which I hate and predict WILL be hated by most fans) will cause him to break up/leave Buffy, 'ending' (but not really ending) the prospect of Spuffy so we all can possibly have more in future (oh joy).

The alternative is the whole 'immortals have patterns' thing which is more interesting, fits with what we know about Angel and Spike's behaviour (from the show and not just the comics), and will mean Spike making an important, mature decison like Angel did back in Season 3- leaving Buffy so she can be with somebody better for her.
That would mean vampire romances would be out-of-bounds for a while and there'd be a call for something new in Season 11.

 

[EVIL UU]

I think that, most of all, the whole thing does not paint Buffy in a positive light. I mean, why now? Because Spike is ready to move on? Is she really that desperate? On the top of that, did she actually need to take a walk in Spike's mind to believe that he's in love with her? Really Buffy, really? As to Spike - he's insecure because he does not want to hurt Buffy, again, and with all their history that's a lot of pressure to deal with. It's why I want to see Spike with somebody who is not Buffy, in a relationship with less dead weight, less expectations, less pressure.

You know what, at this point I almost want Buffy and Spike to get together already so their relationship can promptly go down in flames. Then we might get something new.

This is what I wrote almost a year ago and I stand by it. I want something new. What we have now is not terrible by any means, but it doesn't exactly bring anything new, does it?

 

[gite63]

I think that, most of all, the whole thing does not paint Buffy in a positive light. I mean, why now? Because Spike is ready to move on?

Thinking of that, this could fit in Buffy's old pattern "want what she can't have" - Spike was moving on finally, she noticed that, and then made her move... but she is in love with him, anyway.

As to Spike - he's insecure because he does not want to hurt Buffy, again, and with all their history that's a lot of pressure to deal with.

Yeah, and it's like he said in End of Days, "Yeah...I hear you say it, but..."

I want something new.

So, people want her with a new guy, a human guy, a guy who is in the know about supernatural things, a guy that is also a fighter or a hunter. Do you want a Riley all over again, then? 😀
 

Still the targets are different and I saw a lot of criticism leveled at Angel for doing what he did and NOTHING leveled at Spike, even though their targets/motivations were so different.

A lot of criticism? Because Spike's actions aren't in any way criticised, never... Spike was influenced by Archaeus to kill the Slayer (it was his thing in the past), Angel was influenced to kill Spike out of jealousy he was feeling at that moment - it wasn't the vampires's fault.

Angel can be right or wrong about what he said to Willow, he is intitled to feel jealous over Buffy, he is intitled to have his opinion - but the fact that he spoke it out loud was petty.

And as Christos Gage said, it was just Angel's opinion, not a concept to be taken as the final truth.