When Angel gets happy...

[Buffanator]

So, we all know what happens when Angel gets his happy on... all fangs & evil & destructive behavior, Tsk.

Here's what gets me: apparently ONLY Buffy could bring on "the happy" in Angel. I mean, that OTMOPH (one-true-moment-of-perfect-happiness ) happy.

Because.... Angel had a "moment of perfect happiness" (come on, isn't that what an "orgasm" really is? 😉 ) with Darla... no Angelus. With Eve (one assumes) .... no Angelus. And with Nina (one would also assume) ... and still, no Angelus. So apparently Angel has to be COMPLETELY IN LOVE with the girl he's boinking to feel that OTMOPH. In other words, he clearly wasn't "in love" with Darla or Nina, & we know that he & Eve just had a Lorne-induced boink, so that one probably doesn't count anyway.

SO IN THIS LIGHT... would he have gone all "Angelus" if he & Cordy had ever really gotten together?

 

[Lyri]

As much as it pains me to say it, because I'm a huge Cangel shipper, I don't think he would have. Even in his dream in 'Awakening' or whichever S4 ep it is, when he and Cordy are going at it, you can hear him whisper 'Buffy' right at that moment.

 

[VisionGuy]

My question is (and I was gonna start a new thread to ask)

Would Angel achieve perfect happiness if he slept with Buffy a second time?

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I think he would've gotten it from Cordy. That was how his dream sould losing sequence went, so why not? And as you may have noticed I really do ship Cangel so there's no way in hell I would say anything different 😉

and to answer VGs question:
This is very interesting, could also concern the whole Cordy incidence. Can Angel get any Moment of True Happiness EVER again through sex? He knows what might happen, and I dare to say it will always be on his mind, especially when he gets it on with one of those girls he really likes. o technically, even when experiencing orgasm, he probably wouldn't be perfectly happy because of the fear of turning into Angelus.

 

[Lyri]

I think he would've gotten it from Cordy. That was how his dream sould losing sequence went, so why not? And as you may have noticed I really do ship Cangel so there's no way in hell I would say anything different 😉

If you listen to that scene REALLY carefully, you can hear Angel whisper Buffy's name. As I mentioned above. I'm an avid Cangel shipper, but I have to admit that I did hear it.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

If you listen to that scene REALLY carefully, you can hear Angel whisper Buffy's name. As I mentioned above. I'm an avid Cangel shipper, but I have to admit that I did hear it.

I heard it too. It means nothing though. This was Angel's dream. His mind was told to simulate perfect happiness. If he wouldn't have been perfectly happy with Cordelia, he would have contrived Buffy's appearance. Probably a very similar day to IWRY. It wouldn't have been that strange to have them call Buffy in to take on the Beast that no-one could kill. The "Buffy" line could just as easily be his memory of the last time he felt perfect happiness. If he's only felt it once in a hundred years or so, it'd be pretty memorable.

Or it's network limitations and Joss' liking to keep us arguing. But it's not exactly conclusive on the Bangel front. I'd say it lends more credence to Cangel.

 

[KhaoticLove]

The one thing I have never gotten about taking his soul away when hes happy.... or reaches pure happiness or what ever is that why would this still happen if his soul has been taken numerous times and given back different ways? I mean the curse shouldve ended the first time!!!

But I think theres a chance he could've lost his soul they got close, he really cares for her.

 

[Superstar]

So, we all know what happens when Angel gets his happy on... all fangs & evil & destructive behavior, Tsk.

Not precisely.
The gypsy curse was supposed to be the eternal carrot just out of reach, tormenting him with no hope of release.
Not a single moment of true happiness. Sex itself isn't true happiness.

If the carrot was so easy to take a bite from by getting groiny, it's not much of a curse then.
The idea was to torment him with the unattainable. No release from the suffering.
Only escape through death, something that is totally against the innate nature of a vampire.
So if a vampire was unwilling to commit suicide, and could not escape any other way, then eternal torment is the result.

Some have argued that the soul was the curse. I have disagreed. Spike got a soul and went through no such torment.
Willow re-ensouled Angelus with the original gypsy curse and continued to use the same spell each time it was needed.
I submit that the gypsy spell itself had properties that forced Angel to relive the sins eternally in his mind.
Hence Mr. Always Broody (Angel) vs Mr Happy-go-Lucky (Spike). Different because of the curse itself.
What if Willow was able to re-ensoul without using the gypsy curse she seems to have down pat?
Angel would have no such restrictions on his happiness.

So to your question: would he have gone all "Angelus" if he & Cordy had ever really gotten together?
Was he truly and honestly "in love" with Cordy? The Buffy mutter moment says no. Would he have gone all Angelus? No, I don't think so.
Did he love Cordy? Yes. Could he even have been "in love" with her? Possibly. But no where near the level he had with Buffy.
There are different levels of love. Even being "in love" with someone. Love itself is not a great equalizer.

The mutter moment shows that Buffy would still be his preferred choice. So would he have been "perfectly happy"? No.
If the relationship matured beyond what it did it may have eventually come to that level however in time. Doubtful, but possible.

 

[white avenger]

It's always been a confusing point to me that the curse should have that "one moment of true happiness" clause, when Angel didn't know about it. Sure, after Willow restored his soul, he knew from then on, and it made his punishment even more severe, but if someone hadn't been there to recreate the spell in the first place, Angelus would have been free and slaughtering again, just as if nothing had ever happened.

 

[Superstar]

It's always been a confusing point to me that the curse should have that "one moment of true happiness" clause, when Angel didn't know about it.

I think the point is how could someone have true happiness if the weight of their sins were always being pressed upon them.
A simple orgasm isn't enough.
It would take being totally "in love" with someone and them loving you back in return knowing who and what you are to transcend that.
Did Angel know? I don't know. Did he even think it was possible if he did? I don't know.
Knowledge of it beforehand is of questionable value.
If known, then the knowledge of becoming so close to someone would release the monster once again has some value.
If not known, then it also has value in that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Personally, I think it was a bad clause written for story purposes only and not well thought out.
But perhaps it could be rationalized that everything magical has a consequence. No absolutes.
In order to curse, there must be a release clause - for good or ill.

 

[Cohen]

Angel would SO have a true happy with Cordelia. I know I would!

 

[InsaneMystic]

I wholeheartedly agree, Cangel sex would likely have been a soul-losing experience for Ol' Mopey if it had "really" happened.

See my whole two cents on the "Buffy" whisper in "Awakening" in this post (I just give the link, as you should really read the part I quoted from SS at the start of that post or it makes little sense):

...

 

[JollyApe]

About the whispering of Buffy. I always assumed that that was not because that would be what he did if the act happened in real life, but rather because he had no frame of reference to what sex with Cordy would be like. Therefore for the soul to go bye-bye they needed to re-create that exact moment when he was with Buffy.

Which brings us to the matter whether or he would have lost his soul a second time with Buffy. I mean there really is rather difficult to recreate over a hundred years of emotional abstinence (and most likely complete physical abstinence). That first release, must have been one helluva ride. I don't think it was necessarily so much his feelings for Buffy or the orgasm in itself as more the orgasmic nature of completely letting go and being that intimate with a human being for the, most likely, first time in his life.

So I actually think that he could have gone ahead with the sex with people he was in love with. However it always surprised me that Connor never resulted in a moment of true happiness. Doesn't matter where he came from, he was still his son and you would think that the moment where you hold your son in your arms for the very first time, would indeed be a moment of complete happiness. I guess the writers didn't have a lot of kids.

 

[Lou]

However it always surprised me that Connor never resulted in a moment of true happiness.

Well, no, but he did have that big turn around revelation thing that told him to go back to his friends and quite throwing his life away. I think that was from TPTB or whoever so that he'd be ready when Connor got there and not living in the sewers eating rats.

I'm with 5x5, it was Angel's dream that made him lose his soul. I think if Cordy couldn't have cut it, she wouldn't have been in his dream. It would have been about Buffy.

I think him SAYING Buffy was something else. I think that he hopped into bed with Cordy with neither of them believing that he'd turn evil and when he felt it coming on, he suddenly realized he was just as "happy" with Cordy as he had been with her and had a whole second to realize he had replaced her.
Unlike Lyri, I'm a TRUE Cangel shipper who can find a way to skew anything to MY way of thinking! (Darn Lyri, lesser being and not true believer, spending too much time with Kean...gotta separate them.)

 

[T.I.P]

Whats *true* happiness anyway. Isnt simply being happy true happines? If aint fake, its true...

 

[Lou]

Well, as ingenius as the statement is, the has to be a difference, because one turns him evil and others don't.

I guess I can understand, I can be MISERABLE and worried about work or fighting with someone and still turn around and laugh and joke with the kids and honestly be having a good time and "happy" but, it's not like I'm PERFECTLY happy, just happy in the moment.

But, then, like when he was drugged he was "perfectly happy" and I think the general idea was that the drugs blocked out all the things in his life that didn't make him perfectly happy...for the time being, anyway.

I think it's like when Wesley tells Angel that most of us have to make do with "acceptable happiness". Perhaps we don't "get it" because we don't have the option of "perfect happiness" and if we DO, it's not as obvious that it's happened like Angel gets to have.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Well, as ingenius as the statement is, the has to be a difference, because one turns him evil and others don't.

I guess I can understand, I can be MISERABLE and worried about work or fighting with someone and still turn around and laugh and joke with the kids and honestly be having a good time and "happy" but, it's not like I'm PERFECTLY happy, just happy in the moment.

But, then, like when he was drugged he was "perfectly happy" and I think the general idea was that the drugs blocked out all the things in his life that didn't make him perfectly happy...for the time being, anyway.

I think it's like when Wesley tells Angel that most of us have to make do with "acceptable happiness". Perhaps we don't "get it" because we don't have the option of "perfect happiness" and if we DO, it's not as obvious that it's happened like Angel gets to have.

Exactly. Perfect happiness can only occur during the complete absence of unhappines, worry, or anxiety. That's possibly why Connor never gave him it; there was always a worry whether it be about how the child came into the world or how it might be removed from it. Although, I'm (thankfully) not a parent, so I can't be sure, but I'd have thought there would always be some subconcious worry about my child.

The curse was so designed so that the guilt would always preclude happiness, making perfect, unadultarated happiness impossible. They just didn't count on drugs and sex. As Lou said, the drugs removed the negatives in his mind, as did orgasm, for the split second necessary.
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Edit:
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Dlou444 agrees: Just not Darla and Nina orgasms...because they stink in bed...or something like that.

Hmmm...I think if I were to sleep with a Vampire or a Werewolf, I might be a little worried!

 

[Lou]

Hmmm...I think if I were to sleep with a Vampire or a Werewolf, I might be a little worried!

TRUE! That could impair happiness with the worry of perhaps being mauled.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Exactly. Perfect happiness can only occur during the complete absence of unhappines, worry, or anxiety. That's possibly why Connor never gave him it; there was always a worry whether it be about how the child came into the world or how it might be removed from it. Although, I'm (thankfully) not a parent, so I can't be sure, but I'd have thought there would always be some subconcious worry about my child.

But isn't it odd, then, that kumshucking Buffy did result in perfect happiness, when the not-so-little anxiety factor called The Judge was out and about at the same time?

 

[Blondie Bear]

It's possible that he has to be directly worried about the thing giving him happiness in order to keep him from having perfect happiness. Sure, the Judge was running around, but at that moment, he was with Buffy and content and happy and not worried about losing his soul. So . . . poof! Soul gone.