When Buffy Finds Out...

white avenger

white avenger
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Okay, here's my thread for the infamous events of "I Will Remember You." Now, here's my question:

Should Buffy, or should she not, have had any say in Angel's decision to re-live the actions of "that" day, thus regaining his vampire status?
 
You know mine opinion on this but here I go again.
I'm not happy about what he did, but I understand it. That happened, that episode really happened. It's not imagined, but it looks like that, because no one remember it. Accept Angel. When she found out that she wouldn't remember anything, she wasn't mad, she was sad. Because they got everything they ever wanted. And now everything will go away. But she truly belived that she will remember everything. But she doesn't. And if she ever founds out about that, yeah I think she is going to be very, very, very mad. But I don't think Angel "violeted" her mind like you said. I think she would be mad because he gave up everything they could have had, not because he took her memory. I think she would be mad because he never told her about that, and she loved him so much. I think he had a choice, he could talk to her, but she is only women in love, and he had to do that. And when he told her what he did, she started to cry, she put her had on his chest and said "I understand".
 
As I have said before, I can see absolutely no difference in what Angel did to Buffy in IWRY and what Willow did, first to Tara, then to the entire gang, herself included, in Tabula Rasa, with the single exception that Angel got away with it and Willow didn't. Both actions violated the minds and the trust of someone by someone else who justified their actions by saying that it was for the greater good.

Angel's actions might be justified by saying that he was doing it for Buffy's own good, but the fact remains, he took something precious from her, something that she would never be able to regain. Angel was told by the Powers That Be that Buffy would be dead within a year, and that she would die trying to protect him. It's understandable that Angel would want to avoid that happening, but it is, still, Buffy's decision to make, not his.

What Willow did was considered wrong, regardless of how well intended her motives were. Angel did exactly the same thing, and his actions are somehow heroic and self sacrificing. To me, the biggest difference between the two actions is that Willow got caught and Angel didn't.
 
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BillyidolwannaB
I tend to think Willow was far more selfish with what she done to Tara.
I don't see how you can compare that?
I mean Willow promissed Tara that she would go one month without magic, was it that long? I don't remember. And she didn't. Next day she played with magic. She tried to make Tara to forget about their fight, and Buffy to forget about Heaven. She had a got atention, but fo herself. She wanted that Tara forget about fight because she wanted to have her and magic, and she felt guilty because she puled Buffy from Heaven. But Angel did that because if Buffy said no, don't do it, and died after that, he would be blaiming himself for that.
 
I'll try to view this from a shipper point of view.

Buffy was happy. Knowing what they could have if Angel became human would only made Buffy virtually nun (or a happy Miss Havisham) and Angel tried to avoid also that. It was his way of saying again "forget about me and try to be happy with someone else".

If Buffy finds out now, after she's been in other relationships, she will cry and be mad, but in the end she will understand why Angel did it. She's still cookie dough and it will be good for her to know all the truth before she's done baking.
 
Okay, here's my thread for the infamous events of "I Will Remember You." Now, here's my question:

Should Buffy, or should she not, have had any say in Angel's decision to re-live the actions of "that" day, thus regaining his vampire status?

Oh my friend, you've started it again, haven't you? 😉 I like that you've started a thread for this, actually. This way, we can specifically talk about it in detail.

Well, you know how I feel about this. The double-standard irritates me, and although I understand Angel's "reasoning" for what he did, I don't agree with it. His decision to do what he did was right, obviously. He was right when he said staying a human would only get him and Buffy killed. Yet, his constant need to "protect" Buffy is what irritates me. Of course I don't want Buffy to be unhappy, but I think he did something inappropriate when he erased her memory of that day.

That's our Angel. Playing God, making decisions for people based on what he thinks is best. Always.

Also, on this note, I think it would be interesting to make a thread concerning what Angel did to his friends regarding their memories of Conner. I feel this is a comparable situation. And of course, it bit him in the as* when Cordy came back and asked where Conner was.
 
B
BillyidolwannaB
The thing about what he did to Buffy and Connor though, he really was thinking of them 100% when he did it. And i wouldn't say he's overly protective of her, he just really likes her ;)
I think it was totally Angels decision to make. What alternative was there? Let Buffy choose to keep him human just so she could have a nice memory?
Whoever got to decide, the other would be losing out. I get its not nice violating her mind but he really didnt have a choice when it came down to it. I dont even think he should have told her what he did as theres no benefit to it.
 
I think, if he didn't include her in the actual decision to take back the day then, at the very least he should have told her about it afterwards. Actually, come to think about it, i think it's more important for him to tell her about it afterwards because she wouldn't have remembered them coming to an agreement afterwards anyway and things would stand exactly the same as they did.

Is this making any sense?

What I mean is, that the truth is kinder in the long run. It might hurt at the time but in the long run it would have been healthier for her. Buffy would have been better off knowing. Think about it, Angel rejects his human life for all the right and noble reasons. Fine. He gets to keep the memories of their day together and keep her love. Buffy on the other hand, knows nothing of the day and continues to think of Angel as her Perfect love never knowing that he has in fact rejected her and a life with her. Would she have stayed so devoted to him if she knew the truth? If she'd known the truth maybe she would have been able to move on from Angel and not idealised their love so much.
I mean he told Doyle about it but he couldn't tell the little woman? Oh pl-ease!

If he wasn't going to tell her then it would have been better if he'd lost his memory of the day too.
 
Let's say he stayed human. He would wake up every day with a thought that she is going to die. Maybe she would die in the end of the year, after few months, but maybe she would die tommorrow or that night. Could you live with that? When you know love of your life is going to die, and you know you could stop it. What is benefit of that? They would have a few beautiful months, before she dies. But, they already had that. They wanted forever, but with the fact she is going to die, forever doesn't exist. I think it would be different story if that episode was in Buffy. I think it's better right now. Joss didn't gave us happy ending for a reason. Because someone would would be disapointed, and he probably never wanted for one thing to ruin the whole show for someone. If Buffy and Angel end up together all Spuffy fans would be sad, and other way ofc.
He created comics, and he said that he created something that doesn't effect the show, because he knew some people wouldn't like it because it's totally different. I think we will never have a happy ending, because Joss is fair. I'm said about it, because I really wan't to see Bangel together, just like you wan't to see Spuffy. But I think that will never happen.
 
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BillyidolwannaB
[No message]
I've also kind of made my feelings about this public before but I'll do it again!

I don't see what Angel did as bad as some other people seem to. I acknowledge why it can be put on the same level as what Willow did Tara, and later all the Scoobies, but I don't agree with being put on the same level.

What Willow did was solely based upon selfish intentions. Willow didn't do it for the benefit of anyone but herself. The fact that Willow did more than once, to Tara anyway, is one reason why it has always been deemed as worse than what Angel did. Willow didn't hesitate to manipulate the minds of her partner and her friends, however Angel's decision was obviously one of the hardest decisions he's ever had to make, next to leaving Buffy in the first place I would imagine.
It seems that the main issue some people have with Angel's decision is that Buffy should have been bought in on the final decision, and maybe she should have. But I think that Angel, quite rightly, also thought of himself in this situation. I would have had much less respect for Angel if he had based this decision solely on Buffy, but thankfully he didn't. Being in love with someone doesn't mean that you have to put them first in every, single situation. Sometimes you have to be, and should be, selfish. Angel was clearly disturbed by the consequences his being human would have on Buffy, but he also thought about himself. He wasn't completely ready to accept that he had done enough to redeem his awful past and as much as Buffy was important to his decision, so were his own feelings and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The Powers That Be were the ones who insisted that Buffy have that memory removed, Angel would never have chosen to do that to Buffy out of his own free will and he hasn't told her about it because the PTB insisted she didn't know. And I have to disagree with you Tranquillity, that Angel should have had his memory removed too. It was so important for Angel to have that memory. He is now reminded every day of what he could have when he finally fulfils his destiny and it would have been far too easy for him to have simply forgotten it ever happened too. It makes him continue to fight, to keep working towards that day when he can have that relationship with Buffy.

Joan, I don't understand why you find it so irritating that Angel wants to 'protect' Buffy. Doesn't Spike do and want the same thing? Doesn't Giles? And Xander? They all do, it is a natural instinct to protect the ones you love. And Angel, to me, was the one of the ones who for the majority of time let her protect herself. He stood back when he needed to, something which many other Scoobies struggled to do at times.

And making decisions that you think are for the best, doesn't mean you are playing God. Doesn't everyone do what they do because they think it is for the best? Isn't that a completely natural thing to do? I certainly don't go around making decisions that I think will have the worst possible consequence for the people around me, and neither does Angel.

As to what will happen if and when Buffy does find out? Sure, I think she will be angry, just like she was with Willow when she found out about that. But like I've said before, she will not hold it against Angel for the rest of her life. She will understand the reasoning behind his decision, she will forgive him for it. Absolutely. Just like she did with Willow.

And if I was a Spuffy, I'd be worried about her finding out, or for some reason being able to remember what they had that day. Cos I think that if she did, she might find her egg timer pinging to tell her she's fully baked now.
 
PrincessBuffy16
PrincessBuffy16
Thank you for the last line. Love it!
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BillyidolwannaB
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
AHHH! Flannneeeeennnnnn! You had to bring up the cookie thing, didn't you? ;)
white avenger, the differences between willow and angels decisions couldnt be more differnet, i'm actually suprised you are comparing the two.

Willow was selfish, did it for her own needs.

Angel knew it would cause one or even both of them to die. He sacrificed his own happiness and its as simple as that. He will always remember that and probably thought about the decision everyday. Buffy wouldnt, she would be none the wiser and would continue to live her life. The only choice he had as a champion and as a good person was to turn back the clock and let her forget.
 
Flannen
Flannen
Very nicely said! Yet another example that I sometimes I should less words! :p
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
[No message]
PrincessBuffy16
PrincessBuffy16
[No message]
As I have said before, I can see absolutely no difference in what Angel did to Buffy in IWRY and what Willow did, first to Tara, then to the entire gang, herself included, in Tabula Rasa, with the single exception that Angel got away with it and Willow didn't. Both actions violated the minds and the trust of someone by someone else who justified their actions by saying that it was for the greater good.
But the difference is that with Willow all parties involved were 'living in' the manipulation whereas with Angel it was only he that was living with it. For all intensive purposes time was turned back. Now you say that was wrong and still manipulation, yet in Superman (the original, not the Emo remake) there was no issue with Superman flying around the Earth turning back time to save Lois and avert Lex Luthor his beachside property. In both cases time was turned back so the events never actually happened... and one could argue there was nothing TO get away with because it never happened. The only person that experienced it was Angel, and us as the audience. None of the other characters in the series even went through those days.

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

It was so important for Angel to have that memory.

Well, otherwise the scene would continually repeat itself to no end. The little gem headed guy would bleed on Angel ad infinitum, there had to be something to break the cycle. Who knows, that day may have already been repeated several times before we even witnessed it, and it was only our intervention as the audience breaking the 4th wall which resulted in the PTB making Angel keep his memories so we were not stuck in the loop as well.
 
Flannen
Flannen
lol, I meant it more from a 'emotional' point of view, but I didn't think about it this way. Bit of a 'd'oh' moment for me there! :p
white avenger
white avenger
Superman's actions did have bad results. They made a sequal.
And making decisions that you think are for the best, doesn't mean you are playing God. Doesn't everyone do what they do because they think it is for the best? Isn't that a completely natural thing to do? I certainly don't go around making decisions that I think will have the worst possible consequence for the people around me, and neither does Angel.

It may not be playing God, but his actions towards Buffy are occasionally too close to playing the parent for my liking. Playing the parent of your lover is rarely, or never, a good thing.
 
white avenger
white avenger
But do you make decisions that will literally decide someone else's entire future, without at least letting them have input into the decision?
It may not be playing God, but his actions towards Buffy are occasionally too close to playing the parent for my liking. Playing the parent of your lover is rarely, or never, a good thing.

I never really saw it as him making parental like decisions but I do think he had to be the 'adult' out of the two. I think Buffy would have been too easily led by emotions, and I'm not criticising her for that, so Angel had to be the one who made the tough decisions. And in the long run, I don't think any of the decisions Angel made regarding Buffy were wrong, as in the decisions he, as some people put it, 'made for her', they were all actually for the best and Buffy came to see that, just like she would with this situation.
 
but his actions towards Buffy are occasionally too close to playing the parent for my liking.
But cant Joyce be somewhat to blame for that? She admonished him that she (Buffy) is just a kid and Angel is many years her superior and he has to 'think for her' Joyce put that burden on him to play the parent role as well.. but I prefer MENTOR more than parent.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
I had forgotten that. Rewatching S3 for the first time in 5 years now.
I think, if he didn't include her in the actual decision to take back the day then, at the very least he should have told her about it afterwards. Actually, come to think about it, i think it's more important for him to tell her about it afterwards because she wouldn't have remembered them coming to an agreement afterwards anyway and things would stand exactly the same as they did.

Is this making any sense?

What I mean is, that the truth is kinder in the long run. It might hurt at the time but in the long run it would have been healthier for her. Buffy would have been better off knowing. Think about it, Angel rejects his human life for all the right and noble reasons. Fine. He gets to keep the memories of their day together and keep her love. Buffy on the other hand, knows nothing of the day and continues to think of Angel as her Perfect love never knowing that he has in fact rejected her and a life with her. Would she have stayed so devoted to him if she knew the truth? If she'd known the truth maybe she would have been able to move on from Angel and not idealised their love so much.
I mean he told Doyle about it but he couldn't tell the little woman? Oh pl-ease!

If he wasn't going to tell her then it would have been better if he'd lost his memory of the day too.

You totally make sense and bring up some great points. Angel should have told her, plain and simple. I forgot that he told Dolyle. Wow. Did Doyle express that he should tell Buffy?

I really do wish Buffy knew about that day. God, the Buffyverse is annoying me lately...so many unresolved issues! Grr.

---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 AM ----------

Let's say he stayed human. He would wake up every day with a thought that she is going to die. Maybe she would die in the end of the year, after few months, but maybe she would die tommorrow or that night. Could you live with that? When you know love of your life is going to die, and you know you could stop it. What is benefit of that? They would have a few beautiful months, before she dies. But, they already had that. They wanted forever, but with the fact she is going to die, forever doesn't exist. I think it would be different story if that episode was in Buffy. I think it's better right now. Joss didn't gave us happy ending for a reason. Because someone would would be disapointed, and he probably never wanted for one thing to ruin the whole show for someone. If Buffy and Angel end up together all Spuffy fans would be sad, and other way ofc.
He created comics, and he said that he created something that doesn't effect the show, because he knew some people wouldn't like it because it's totally different. I think we will never have a happy ending, because Joss is fair. I'm said about it, because I really wan't to see Bangel together, just like you wan't to see Spuffy. But I think that will never happen.

PrincessBuffy, I don't think anyone here is arguing that he should have stayed human. We all agree that he made the right desision. What we think is that Angel should have told Buffy the truth. We all know these memory erasing things can go wonky, her memory of that day might still come back. It did regarding Team Angel (excluding Cordy) and Conner. Since the Oracles said he had to retain the memory of that day in order for it to work on Buffy and therefor save her, he didn't really have a choice in that matter. Yet, he did have a choice to tell her, and he didn't. That's all I'm saying.

Also, I'd also like to say, despite what he did, I still can't help but feel very for him in this episode. Even though he did pass up the chance to have a life with her as Tranquility mentioned (and for good reason) it was hard for him to live with that memory. I've said this before and I'll say it again; Angel cares about his mission and his redemption more than Buffy. He's made that clear. And that's alright. He's a hero. Personal sacrifice comes with the package.

And I agree that Joss won't have her end up with either one. For all we know, she'll end up with Xander.
 
Okay, to begin with, Willow's motives might have been selfish, but her excuse was that she was doing what she was doing to Tara, and later the whole gang, "for their own good," the same excuse that is used on several occasions throughout both series when someone, usually Angel or Giles, makes a decision mostly affecting someone else without giving them any input whatsoever in the decision. Willow did it when she tried to remove her friends' bad memories. Wes did it when he kidnapped baby Connor. Angel did it when he altered everyone's memories to forget about teenaged Connor. Giles tried to do it when he and Wood tried to kill Spike. All of those decisions were made with the honest desire to make things better or to protect someone, the perpetrators always got caught, and their actions were always seen as being wrong, despite all of their good intentions. The only difference that I can see between any or all of those cecisions and what Angel did was that he never got caught. Oh, and before we forget it, Angel's sacrifice only managed to delay the inevitable for a year, until Buffy died protecting another mortal, her sister, Dawn. Fate, it would seem, might be postponed, but it can never de avoided completely.

I find it somewhat ironic that the episode begins with Buffy confronts Angel for doing, to a much smaller scale, exactly what he wound up doing in the end: interfering with her life without letting her know what he was doing. His excuse? "I did what I thought was right."

What Angel did in "I Will Remember You" wasn't just his decision to make. It affected both him and Buffy, so she should have had equal input in that decision. In Buffy's own words, she was a big girl, capable of making her own choices. Which brings me to my major objection to Angel's actions in this episode.

Angel sets himself up more than once throughout the series as being the one who somehow has the right to decide the fate of others, always "for their own good," an excuse that might be valid for children, or someone like Drusilla, whose mental level is somewhere about pre-teen at best (and let's not forget whose fault THAT is). Adults, however, ultimately get to make their own choices, right or wrong, or at least they should be allowed to. Angel isn't Buffy's parent, and she isn't a child. As well intentioned as he might be, the decision simply isn't his to make, anmd it had the potential of affecting far more than just Buffy's life.

By having the Oracles take that day back, Angel did something that he had never done before. He altered the very fabric of time itself, something that has been illustrated time and again in fiction as always having far reaching, usually disastrous, consequences. If Buffy had, in fact, died protecting Angel, then almost certainly the Watchers' Council would have taken steps to either free Faith from prison and return her to duty under much closer supervision, possibly with the help of drugs, spells, or both, or, more likely, eliminate her altogether, allowing a new, probably more controllable, Slayer to be called and assigned to the hellmouth. Whether Faith or Slayer X, she might have been more realistic about her approach to saving the world from Glory by destroying the Key, plus a very annoying teenager, by simply killing Dawn long before Glory ever managed to get to her.

Ultimately, I think that if and when Buffy discovers just what Angel did to her, we are going to see a reaction similar to, but more severe than, what we saw in "Lies My Parents Told Me," when she closed the door in Giles' face. In both cases, the Slayer was betrayed by someone who she loved, both times with the best of intentions, but betrayal is still betrayal. Giles got caught, Angel got away with it.

(Just as a side note, did anyone else notice that the Mohra Demon was using Duncan Macleod's katana?)
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
As usual, I'm blown away by your post. Great points you bring up. I completely agree.
Okay, to begin with, Willow's motives might have been selfish, but her excuse was that she was doing what she was doing to Tara, and later the whole gang, "for their own good,"

This could be true for Buffy; Willow's intentions were to make her forget the horrors of being torn from heaven. It was, obviously, still wrong but I can recognise why you are arguing the 'for their own good' thing here. But with Tara? Absolutely not. Manipulating Tara's memory was not in any way for own her good, it was solely for Willow's. Willow didn't want Tara to be angry with her, she wanted Tara to forget that she had acknowledged Willow was on the verge of travelling down the wrong path. Tara forgetting these things cannot be covered with it being for her 'own good' so I still do not think that the two circumstances are equally on the same level.

I find it somewhat ironic that the episode begins with Buffy confronts Angel for doing, to a much smaller scale, exactly what he wound up doing in the end: interfering with her life without letting her know what he was doing. His excuse? "I did what I thought was right."

The anger she expresses here is much more deep rooted than Buffy being angry he interfered. At this point, so early on in season four, she was still not over the fact he left and what I think what she was more upset with was the fact she hadn't gotten over it yet. Like she said, 'you get to see me, but I can't see you' that is what she is upset about, the fact that she is still reeling from his departure, its not all to do with the fact he 'interfered'.

I've already expressed my thoughts on whose decisions it was, and why Angel making the decision alone is on some level justified, so I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Ultimately, I think that if and when Buffy discovers just what Angel did to her, we are going to see a reaction similar to, but more severe than, what we saw in "Lies My Parents Told Me," when she closed the door in Giles' face. In both cases, the Slayer was betrayed by someone who she loved, both times with the best of intentions, but betrayal is still betrayal. Giles got caught, Angel got away with it.

I find this difficult to argue with here. For one, I don't think she will react in the same way, I think she will offer the forgiveness and they understanding that she should have offered Giles. And if she did do this to Angel? Then I would lose even more respect her. I lost a lot of respect for Buffy with her treatment of Giles in season seven, but I might take this to another thread if there isn't one lurking around somewhere.

Oh and about this:
or someone like Drusilla, whose mental level is somewhere about pre-teen at best (and let's not forget whose fault THAT is).

You frequently say you wish Spike had '-us' to take the blame for his 'bad' actions. Well Angel does, obviously, but you still seem to lay the blame of ANGEL here, not ANGELUS - who is the one to blame for what happened to Drusilla.
 
I find this difficult to argue with here. For one, I don't think she will react in the same way, I think she will offer the forgiveness and they understanding that she should have offered Giles. And if she did do this to Angel? Then I would lose even more respect her. I lost a lot of respect for Buffy with her treatment of Giles in season seven, but I might take this to another thread if there isn't one lurking around somewhere.




You frequently say you wish Spike had '-us' to take the blame for his 'bad' actions. Well Angel does, obviously, but you still seem to lay the blame of ANGEL here, not ANGELUS - who is the one to blame for what happened to Drusilla.


I've got some really bad things to say about Giles in Seasons 6 and 7, and in Angel Season 5 and beyond, but, as you say, that's for a different thread.

And, no, I don't blame Angel for the actions of Angelus. I didn't even say that. White Avenger-us did.
 
Flannen
Flannen
LMAO. Awesome, simply awesome.
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