When Buffy Finds Out...

[PrincessBuffy16]

I just don't see that like you and Joan see it. He didn't told her that, maybe he should. But when? She stormed out. And he, maybe he thought that wouldn't change anything. She came there all mad, and left mad. Was that the time to say something to her? I agree. She should have told her. It would be better for me. And for all us Bangel fans.

 

[white avenger]

I just don't see that like you and Joan see it. He didn't told her that, maybe he should. But when? She stormed out. And he, maybe he thought that wouldn't change anything. She came there all mad, and left mad. Was that the time to say something to her? I agree. She should have told her. It would be better for me. And for all us Bangel fans.

Well, in defense of Ol' Broody, the Oracles did say something to the effect that he alone would retain the memory of that lost day.
(Though I seem to recall him telling someone, maybe Doyle, about it later)

And I know that it was a real tear jerker of a scene, the kind ot thing that Sarah seems to really love doing. Apparently she doesn't laugh as convincingly on screen as she cries. (At least, I can't recall ever having seen her in a really happy, funny mood in anything that I've ever seen her in. Don't get me wrong, Sarah can do comedy, she just never acts as though she ENJOYS doing comedy) It's just one of those episodes like "As You Were," that I just can neither enjoy or even appreciate.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Yeah Sarah herself said that she can't laugh on screen, she is bad at it. She likes sad scenes, and coled ones, because she can do them so good. Well she doesn't smile to much, but when she does, it's beautiful.

 

[white avenger]

Yeah, but it makes Buffy come off as such a sad person. She should have had someone to make her laugh. In fact, maybe we should all just give up on all of these grim ships and hope that Buffy finds someone to spend her life with who can teach her how to laugh.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Buffy laughed sometimes. She smiled most of the time. But I think it's true what Buffy said herself- when she is done baking she will be happy.

 

[white avenger]

I'm surprised that shE didn't bust out laughing just delivering such a lame line.

HOLD EVERYTHING!!!!

Photographic proof that Buffy actually CAN laugh...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3tttly44To"]YouTube - Buffy laughing[/ame]

 

[Flannen]

Don't forget 'Real Me' - Harmony makes her laugh, a lot. Now THAT would be an interesting 'ship! 😛

 

[Frketson]

Well, in defense of Ol' Broody, the Oracles did say something to the effect that he alone would retain the memory of that lost day.
(Though I seem to recall him telling someone, maybe Doyle, about it later)

And I know that it was a real tear jerker of a scene, the kind ot thing that Sarah seems to really love doing. Apparently she doesn't laugh as convincingly on screen as she cries. (At least, I can't recall ever having seen her in a really happy, funny mood in anything that I've ever seen her in. Don't get me wrong, Sarah can do comedy, she just never acts as though she ENJOYS doing comedy) It's just one of those episodes like "As You Were," that I just can neither enjoy or even appreciate.

In season 6 when Giles comes back and Buffy tells her all the horrible things that have happened over the season, he bursts out laughing and you can tell SMG has trouble laughing, its so forced.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I find this difficult to argue with here. For one, I don't think she will react in the same way, I think she will offer the forgiveness and they understanding that she should have offered Giles. And if she did do this to Angel? Then I would lose even more respect her. I lost a lot of respect for Buffy with her treatment of Giles in season seven, but I might take this to another thread if there isn't one lurking around somewhere.

I know this is off-topic but I can't help myself:

I think the way Buffy reacted to what Giles tried to do was completely justified. She didn't get angry, she didn't yell, she didn't get emotional. She simply said "I think I've learned all I need to from you."

Giles tried to get Spike killed. That is not shocking, obviously. We all know how he felt regarding Spike. BUT it was a pretty big deal that he attempted this by tricking her and by having Wood do it behind her back. Spike was a very close friend of hers at that point. She was angry and rightly so. What he did was completely deceitful.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 PM ----------

Yeah, but it makes Buffy come off as such a sad person. She should have had someone to make her laugh. In fact, maybe we should all just give up on all of these grim ships and hope that Buffy finds someone to spend her life with who can teach her how to laugh.

Spike could make her laugh, even in her hardest moments, like in "Touched" during his speech.

 

[Flannen]

I know this is off-topic but I can't help myself:

I think the way Buffy reacted to what Giles tried to do was completely justified. She didn't get angry, she didn't yell, she didn't get emotional. She simply said "I think I've learned all I need to from you."

Giles tried to get Spike killed. That is not shocking, obviously. We all know how he felt regarding Spike. BUT it was a pretty big deal that he attempted this by tricking her and by having Wood do it behind her back. Spike was a very close friend of hers at that point. She was angry and rightly so. What he did was completely deceitful.

I get that, I really do. But I just think it was so out of line considering everything that Giles has done for her. Sometimes parents (lets face it, he's always been a parental figure to her) make mistakes, but that doesn't mean you should totally dismiss them in the way that she does.

I was watching season two yesterday and it made me even more angry to think of how Giles is treated in season seven, because he sacrifices his relationship with Jenny for Buffy and it simply kills him to do so. But Buffy comes first for him. And I just think that because of everything she has ever done for him, to treat him as she does, for so long, is just, disgraceful to be honest.

And to get back on topic:

he should have told her. It would be better for me. And for all us Bangel fans.

I don't think its safe to say all Bangel fans would have preferred for him to have told her. I, in fact, am glad she didn't. I don't think it was the time for it. I don't think Buffy/Angel would have reached the level of maturity they are at now, if Buffy had been told that day.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I get that, I really do. But I just think it was so out of line considering everything that Giles has done for her. Sometimes parents (lets face it, he's always been a parental figure to her) make mistakes, but that doesn't mean you should totally dismiss them in the way that she does.

I was watching season two yesterday and it made me even more angry to think of how Giles is treated in season seven, because he sacrifices his relationship with Jenny for Buffy and it simply kills him to do so. But Buffy comes first for him. And I just think that because of everything she has ever done for him, to treat him as she does, for so long, is just, disgraceful to be honest.

And to get back on topic:


I don't think its safe to say all Bangel fans would have preferred for him to have told her. I, in fact, am glad she didn't. I don't think it was the time for it. I don't think Buffy/Angel would have reached the level of maturity they are at now, if Buffy had been told that day.

I didn't thought that day. Maybe after some time. Because I think it would be good for her, because she was confused, and I think she would fin her place in the world because of that. She could have belived in something, in them. I'm just so sorry we didn't saw the scene after she got back from Heaven and when she and Angel got together 🙂
I think that would be intersting.

And the thing about Giles. I was so sad when she told him that, because like you said he did so much for her. But I think scoobies never accepted Spike in her life like he did Angel. I mean, Xander, who hated him, helped him in Amends. Because he accepted he is big part of her life. I think they never did that with Spike.

 

[ubi4soft]

I was watching season two yesterday and it made me even more angry to think of how Giles is treated in season seven, because he sacrifices his relationship with Jenny for Buffy and it simply kills him to do so. But Buffy comes first for him. And I just think that because of everything she has ever done for him, to treat him as she does, for so long, is just, disgraceful to be honest.

Buffy disrespected Giles in S3 hiding Angel's return. What Giles did in S7 was close to betrayal.

On the topic (I already said it on 1st page)

 

[Professor Walsh]

I never really saw it as him making parental like decisions but I do think he had to be the 'adult' out of the two. I think Buffy would have been too easily led by emotions, and I'm not criticising her for that, so Angel had to be the one who made the tough decisions. And in the long run, I don't think any of the decisions Angel made regarding Buffy were wrong, as in the decisions he, as some people put it, 'made for her', they were all actually for the best and Buffy came to see that, just like she would with this situation.

I just don't think making decicions on behalf of your lover, without even letting her know, has a place in a relationship. It reeks of disrespect.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

Considering it was unintentional that Angel became human in the first place, and the fact that it was the PTB that made the specific rules of Buffy never finding out, it makes it all Angels decision.
Sorry, but if Angel doesn't want to be human, Buffy doesn't get a choice in that. I mean, is Angel supposed to go get Buffys permission? He didn't wanna be human and that was that.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Considering it was unintentional that Angel became human in the first place, and the fact that it was the PTB that made the specific rules of Buffy never finding out, it makes it all Angels decision.
Sorry, but if Angel doesn't want to be human, Buffy doesn't get a choice in that. I mean, is Angel supposed to go get Buffys permission? He didn't wanna be human and that was that.

It's not about Angel needing Buffys permission regarding the choice to be human. It's about him making a decision (to reverse the day) and not telling her about it after. Sure, he didn't lie to her, but he did hide the truth by failing to tell her, didn't he? And come on, her finding out couldn't have bothered him too much as he didn't hesitate to tell Doyle about what happened. He probobly told Cordy, too. Seems plausible it could have gotten back to Buffy. My point is, if he had intended to respect the the Oracles' "rule" (of never telling Buffy) seriously, he wouldn't have mentioned that day at all. To anyone. See my point?

Speaking of, why the hell did the PTB make the rule that Buffy wouldn't retain the memory of that day? To punish Angel? So he would have to live with the memory of what they could have had, and she wouldn't have to feel that pain. Why would the Oracles protect her? Perhaps we should be upset at the PTB as well, not just at Angel. After all, they're the ones that used Buffy as a pawn in their game with Angel to torment him. THEY altered her memories.

 

[white avenger]

Sorry, but if Angel doesn't want to be human, Buffy doesn't get a choice in that. I mean, is Angel supposed to go get Buffys permission? He didn't wanna be human and that was that.

But the entire point of the episode was supposed to be Angel'n nobel sacrifice, rejecting his humanity and the chance of a happy (if short) life with Buffy as normal lovers. It didn't just affect Angel, it affected both of them. And since it DID affect both of them, Buffy had a right to at least be included in in the decision.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

I dont see the big deal of Angel telling Doyle. If he'd told Buffy she'd have just been really upset, but for Doyle its not a problem.
Maybe it is PTB's fault, should they really be allowed to rewind time at all? Why didn't they do the same when Doyle or Fred died?

---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

Well seeing as time was rewound, i dont see how it affects Buffy that much, other than she doesnt get to be with her boyfriend who didn't even wanna be with her. I say she's better off without Angel or the memory.

 

[Wesley]

Dang. Took me awhile to dig through all of this. Ultimately I'm not even sure which side of the argument anyone is on but this sort of strikes me as when the little kid asks their parents 'If I was never born would you miss me?.'

Let's say Angel DID tell her, it would have very little meaning in her life, she never experienced, it is a non-emotional event for her, it'd be like Angel explaining a fairy tale. 'Hey Buffy, once I turned human and we lived a happy existence for a day, but then the PTB told me that if I didn't reverse the day and not turn human you would die because I wasn't strong enough.' It's just a story to her, it's not Real, she can't feel like she lost it because as far as she remembers she never had It. It would not be as big a deal as you guys think and if she did make a big deal out of it she would be a huge B-word because what the hell else was the guy supposed to do?

I will quote Angel for a moment, at the start of season 4 he says to Connor: "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us - champions. Doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world is as it should be, to show it what it can be."

Buffy, especially S7 and forward knows that she's a Champion. She knows it doesn't matter where she came from or what she's done or suffered, she will endure. She knows Angel is the same way and there is no way in this man's opinion that she would be angry with him for this. Maybe vaguely upset, annoyed, perturbed... but angry? Betrayed? Never.

This is the beauty of where Bangel was at the end of BTVS, it's a love not immature or selfish, it's one between two mature people who, I think, understand each other. She would understand again.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Wesley thank u for this post. I agree with everything, especially with fairytale part. Because Buffy said herself she dreamt for 1000 times that Angel is human, and if did told her, it would be like that.. like one of her dreams. Nice, very nice post 🙂

 

[Flannen]

And come on, her finding out couldn't have bothered him too much as he didn't hesitate to tell Doyle about what happened. He probobly told Cordy, too. Seems plausible it could have gotten back to Buffy.

Actually, I think it shows how much he does care, that he told Doyle about it. I think he would have hesitated to tell Doyle about it, hence Doyle had to go and ask Angel what was wrong. Angel is Ol' Mr Broody, he doesn't share his feelings, he doesn't like to talk. We see this all through Ats. So for Angel to talk to someone about it shows just how much it affected him and how much he cared about it. It also shows how much Doyle meant to him, but that's not for here.

Doyle, told Cordelia, not Angel. And at this point Cordelia would not have let it slip to anyone in order for it to get back to Buffy. She was far too mature by AtS season one to do it with intent and I think she would have also had it in mind that it couldn't get back to Buffy. Besides, who would she tell?

And considering that it seems to be a big deal to some people that Angel makes decisions for Buffy or regarding Buffy...if she had have been told and bought in on the decision and refused to let him do what he wanted, what then? What if Buffy had gone behind Angel's back and made sure they kept him human? Something tells me you wouldn't think it was as big of a deal. (That just springs out of the fact that sometimes I get the impression Buffy can do no wrong, ever. Everything she does is right, she never makes mistakes and she's always the victim. Piffle.) 😉