She does a lot of mistakes (she's growing up), she just get away with them and has an awful tendency to win
When Buffy Finds Out...
- Thread starter white avenger
- Start date
She does a lot of mistakes (she's growing up), she just get away with them and has an awful tendency to win
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
Buffy is my hero. I see her like that, like she is always right, and I'm by her side everytime 🙂
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Yes, Buffy is a hero - but today's contemporary heroes of popular culture make mistakes and aren't perfect. They have to screw up sometimes in order for us to relate to them, right? Otherwise, they'd be these perfect, unattainable, God-like beings that are so far removed from us we'd be unable to relate to them.
PrincessBuffy16
Yes I agree, but that is the way how I see Buffy.
Professor Walsh
Feminist slayerette
Not a small deal for me, anyway. But then people sneaking behind the back of their significant others is, as you may have figured out by now, something I have little patience for.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
Would Buffy have forgiven Angel for his action in "I Will Remember You"? Probably. Probably not. Who knows? But Angel should have told her. And I'm not talking about minutes before her memories were erased. He should have told her before giving the PTB his decision . . . or he should have told her after her memories were erased. I don't care what would have happened. He should have told her.
Just because Angel was in love with Buffy did not give him the right to rob her of her will.
I would have criticized Buffy just as surely as I had criticized Wes for kidnapping Connor and handing him over to Holtz.
Just because Angel was in love with Buffy did not give him the right to rob her of her will.
I would have criticized Buffy just as surely as I had criticized Wes for kidnapping Connor and handing him over to Holtz.
She has no say in the decision to be honest. It's his life/body/existence and he gets to choose how he lives it Vampire, Human, otherwise.
He didn't rob her of her will any more then he robbed anyone else in the entire world of their 'will' which by the way he didn't do, all he did was move the world back a day and made one different decision.
That's be far the weakest argument of the whole discussion in my opinion.
B
BillyidolwannaB
[No message]
Flannen
[No message]
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
I agree. And if he did told her he would caused her only pain, pain of something she doesn't remember. Like I said, that was her dream, and it still is. I think it's better for everyone that he keeps his mouth closed because Buffy would go on all "said girl" all over again, and I like to se happy Buffy 🙂
white avenger
white avenger
(It seems as though this is going to be another of those "Astronauts vs Cavemen" arguments/discussions/debates that we have so frequently here.)
Buffy does not like being manipulated. She doesn't like being "protected." She doesn't like things done behind her back "for her own good." This has been shown time and again. She prefers to make her own decisions, go with her own instincts and gut feelings, even in defiance of people who are older, wiser, and more experienced. She has defied her Watcher's advice and orders, her mother's authority, and her friends' advice. If she were to find out that someone who she cared for as much as she did for Angel took it upon himself to rob her of a day's memory, not to mention happiness and hope for the future, regardless of what his motives might have been, she is going to be, to say the very least, ticked off big time.
Granted, whether to stay human or reject it and regain his vampiric powers is Angel's decision and his alone, and I seriously doubt that she would fault him for that (immortality alone would be a hard thing for someone to give up). But the decision to have her memories manipulated or taken away altogether was in no way Angel's right, nor should it have been his decision to make. It's just like the people on "Dollhouse." They have the memories of their past lives removed and allow false ones to be implanted in their places, but they did so willingly. No one just decided one day that, for whatever reason, a part of their lives, in this case a very important, happy part, should be stolen from them. And that is exactly what Angel did to Buffy. He stole her memory. The excuses of "doing it for her own good," or "protecting her from the pain of losing her dreams," or even "saving her life" just aren't enough to justify what Angel took it upon himself to do. Nothing is.
If Angel was so concerned about Buffy dying by trying to protect him, why didn't he simply go all the way and have all memory of any love that she might ever have felt for him erased?. That way, he would never again have to worry about her coming to harm because of him. That's the exact same thing that he actually did, just taken to the extreme. Do you think that Buffy would be mad if she ever found out that he did something like that? That would be as much his decision to make alone as stealing a single day's memories was. If one is excusable, the other should be as well, especially if Angel's main concern really was the Slayer's happiness and well being.
Buffy does not like being manipulated. She doesn't like being "protected." She doesn't like things done behind her back "for her own good." This has been shown time and again. She prefers to make her own decisions, go with her own instincts and gut feelings, even in defiance of people who are older, wiser, and more experienced. She has defied her Watcher's advice and orders, her mother's authority, and her friends' advice. If she were to find out that someone who she cared for as much as she did for Angel took it upon himself to rob her of a day's memory, not to mention happiness and hope for the future, regardless of what his motives might have been, she is going to be, to say the very least, ticked off big time.
Granted, whether to stay human or reject it and regain his vampiric powers is Angel's decision and his alone, and I seriously doubt that she would fault him for that (immortality alone would be a hard thing for someone to give up). But the decision to have her memories manipulated or taken away altogether was in no way Angel's right, nor should it have been his decision to make. It's just like the people on "Dollhouse." They have the memories of their past lives removed and allow false ones to be implanted in their places, but they did so willingly. No one just decided one day that, for whatever reason, a part of their lives, in this case a very important, happy part, should be stolen from them. And that is exactly what Angel did to Buffy. He stole her memory. The excuses of "doing it for her own good," or "protecting her from the pain of losing her dreams," or even "saving her life" just aren't enough to justify what Angel took it upon himself to do. Nothing is.
If Angel was so concerned about Buffy dying by trying to protect him, why didn't he simply go all the way and have all memory of any love that she might ever have felt for him erased?. That way, he would never again have to worry about her coming to harm because of him. That's the exact same thing that he actually did, just taken to the extreme. Do you think that Buffy would be mad if she ever found out that he did something like that? That would be as much his decision to make alone as stealing a single day's memories was. If one is excusable, the other should be as well, especially if Angel's main concern really was the Slayer's happiness and well being.
B
BillyidolwannaB
Lol, always the astronauts v cavemen style debates :)
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
I think you are missing the point here. So you think you know our Buffy so good? Well guess again! You really think if she really ever founds out about that she would be worried about her memories? They only thing she would be worried about is her happines. What they could have had. Why do you underestimate first love? And what are you thinking about first love? Do you mean literally first? If you mean that, then mine first love was 4 year old boy that I saw on the playground. There is no last love, only first because it last forever. First and only. When you find person with who you wan't to spend your life with then that it's first love. When it comes to Angel Buffy is like any other women in love, she thinks with her heart, not with her brain. Can you get that? So I think, no I know, that if she ever founds out what they had for that one day the only thing she is going to think about is how to repeat that. How to bring that back and how to live that kind of life forever. Because when you know you had somethingm, it gives you power to take that back. And when it comes to love, we have no laws. We have only love, first love that last forver and all the other loves that were introduction.
BillyidolwannaB
Scooby
I really dont see Buffy being annoyed at all if Angel did tell her afterwards, as someone said earlier, it would be just like a fairytale story to her. I'm sure if Angel explained why he did it, Buffy would accept she has no right to be pissed off.
If Angel, on his own initiative, rewound time to before Wes stole Connor and stopped him, would anyone be upset even though he didn't ask Wes?
If Angel, on his own initiative, rewound time to before Wes stole Connor and stopped him, would anyone be upset even though he didn't ask Wes?
Flannen
I like your way of thinking :)
Professor Walsh
Feminist slayerette
While I am quite fond of first love that conquers all in fiction, reality has facets that fiction can never quite portray. Love isn't a static, quantitative entity. Relationships cannot be described only as "love" or "not love". Love grows between two persons, and it is shaped both in the dynamics between the two lovers and through our previous experiences. For a loving relationship to last, the everyday puzzles of life needs to work out. Where does the money come from? Where do we want to live? If we bring children into this relationship, will we be able to agree on a platform of values on which to raise them? All these questions can be easily solved in a work of fiction, but in real life they can cause rifts to open between two people who love each other intensely. These questions pull our differences out of the closets and into the harsh light of day. And sometimes a relationship cannot live through that.
You asked White Avenger why he underestimates first love, concluding that the time you find the person with whom you want to spend your life that is the first love. All the others have merely been preparation. Well, I think it is you who underestimate first love. One and a half decades has passed since I first fell in love. I was willing to give up everything I held dear for that boy, being in love with a fierceness I never would have thought myself capable of. That relationship did not last, it couldn't have. We were too different then. Had I given up everything that is me, I wouldn't have been the girl he fell in love with. Had I given up the essence of what is me, I believe I would have ended up resenting him for that "“ even though it would have been my own doing. In the end, he broke up with me. Sixteen years later, I can see that he did the right thing.
Today, I am married to a husband that I love. That does not invalidate my first love, nor the relationship I had between these two. I don't believe that there is only one person in the world that I can possibly love. But this is the one I have chosen to set up my life with.
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
To love someone and to fall in love with someone is not the same thing. I don't say other loves are not real or that they are not important, I just say that one day all of us find someone about who we feel everything we never felt before, and I think that will be first love. I think Buffy had many boys before Angel, but everytime she looked back he was there, in her heart.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
I haven't read the rest of the thread, but here goes;
As I remember it, it was the Oracles that choose to reverse time, not Angel.
I always used to think that Angel would have said "No, there must be another way", but after seeing how he acted in season 4, violating his friends, his sons, and the (presumable un-voluenteering) family's minds, I'm not sure.
Not that reversing time is a mind-violation per see, but it's icky.
But I don't blame him and I'm not sure I would if he had been the one to choose the time reversal.
To answer the question; He wanted to be a vampire again. Buffy had no say in that. And since she couldn't remember that wonderful day, she didn't really miss anything.
But I still want to slap Angel for not staying human. Just a few episodes later, he wanted to Shanshu(one day). I get that he wanted to re-pay for all the lives he'd taken, but come on!
As I remember it, it was the Oracles that choose to reverse time, not Angel.
I always used to think that Angel would have said "No, there must be another way", but after seeing how he acted in season 4, violating his friends, his sons, and the (presumable un-voluenteering) family's minds, I'm not sure.
Not that reversing time is a mind-violation per see, but it's icky.
But I don't blame him and I'm not sure I would if he had been the one to choose the time reversal.
To answer the question; He wanted to be a vampire again. Buffy had no say in that. And since she couldn't remember that wonderful day, she didn't really miss anything.
But I still want to slap Angel for not staying human. Just a few episodes later, he wanted to Shanshu(one day). I get that he wanted to re-pay for all the lives he'd taken, but come on!
Eleftheria
Scooby
wow!everyone here expresses nice opinions!I mostly agree with PrincessBuffy16 and Flannen.
What Angel did in IWRY is IMO the ultimate sacrifice...it shows how much he loves Buffy.The moment he realised he would not be able to help her and that she would have to fight alone and ultimately she would die sooner than expected he immendiately gave up his only chance of happiness...
That episode ALWAYS brings tears in my eyes especially the last scene!fabulous performance by SMG!And i mostly agree with PrincessBuffy16 about falling in love and REAL love...I am quite certain she and Angel had a bond that can't be compared to anything else,a love that could not be repeated...so IMO he was her first and only love.She may have fallen in love with other guys,but Angel was more than falling in love...i have said before that IMO they are soulmates!
I also would like Buffy to know about that day,because she would see what they could have had,and how much Angel loves her...but IMO if she had learned that right away she would be terribly depressed...i am sure she would understand why Angel did it,because she did understand before time was reversed...but she would be very sad about it...the fact that she doesn't remember protected her sanity
Angel did sth which required a lot of strength...he was thinking about Buffy when he made that choice so it proves how much he loves her...I wish one day Buffy would know about this...i am not sure that they will have a happy ending but no matter what they will always love each other
What Angel did in IWRY is IMO the ultimate sacrifice...it shows how much he loves Buffy.The moment he realised he would not be able to help her and that she would have to fight alone and ultimately she would die sooner than expected he immendiately gave up his only chance of happiness...
That episode ALWAYS brings tears in my eyes especially the last scene!fabulous performance by SMG!And i mostly agree with PrincessBuffy16 about falling in love and REAL love...I am quite certain she and Angel had a bond that can't be compared to anything else,a love that could not be repeated...so IMO he was her first and only love.She may have fallen in love with other guys,but Angel was more than falling in love...i have said before that IMO they are soulmates!
I also would like Buffy to know about that day,because she would see what they could have had,and how much Angel loves her...but IMO if she had learned that right away she would be terribly depressed...i am sure she would understand why Angel did it,because she did understand before time was reversed...but she would be very sad about it...the fact that she doesn't remember protected her sanity
Angel did sth which required a lot of strength...he was thinking about Buffy when he made that choice so it proves how much he loves her...I wish one day Buffy would know about this...i am not sure that they will have a happy ending but no matter what they will always love each other