When did Cordy become the vessel for Jasmine?

[Willow Rosenberg]

There seem to be many different opinions on this.

 

[Jacklyn]

As I was saying in the thread that spawned this one, I think it happened in Happy Borthday when Cordelia became part demon.

 

[slayerangel]

There many ways to word this question. If you wanted to know when she was able to be a vessel for Jasmine, that would probably be "Birthday," but if you're talking about when Jasmine actually used Cordelia as a vessel, that would be after "Tomorrow" and the whole memory loss thing may just be a side effect from coming down to Earth in "The House Always Wins."

"Happy Birthday" wasn't an episode... don't you mean "Birthday"?

 

[Jacklyn]

LOL-Yep! That's what we meant! Ooops....

 

[Lethe]

I always thought Jasmine used Cordy once she was pregnant with her. But I thought Jasmine had been planning to use Cor for a long, long time. I think Skip said something along the lines that something this huge had been planned a while ago and incorporated everyone's job: Angel's, Gunn's, Doyle's, Fred's, Wes's,...everyone's.

 

[Jacklyn]

Jasmine was definitely using Cordy from before she got pregnant with her-that's the only reason I can think of for her sleeping with Connor to begin with!

 

[Lethe]

Jasmine was definitely using Cordy from before she got pregnant with her-that's the only reason I can think of for her sleeping with Connor to begin with!

Oh, good point. I didn't even think of that.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

I so think this happened when Cordy got her memory back in Spin the Bottle

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

I so think this happened when Cordy got her memory back in Spin the Bottle

Yeah thats when I think it happend, at the end of the ep when Angel asked if they were in love she says something like "we were" like not anymore I think everything after that was Jasmine

 

[Hitome]

Well, I think Jasmine was put in Cordy in Birthday, but didn't completely manifest until later. I need to watch the season again to figure out when, but there were times when Cordy was not acting normally, yet still retained Cordy characteristics. By the time she slept with Connor she didn't even sound like Cordy anymore so I think Jasmine was in full control by then. Maybe Cordy had to become a higher being to open a channel inside her that would allow Jasmine to control her completely when before she was only able to influence Cordy?

 

[Lilah]

I said In Tomorrow when she rose to become a higher being? but I am still not sure on it, it is defiantely something which is worth looking into a lot of depth to discover when Jasmine was created.

 

[MentPatient]

I always thought it was when Cordy came back from the Higher Plane... and she was a possible vessel once she became part-demon.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Wasn't there an episode where Skip explained it all.

I think how it happened was when (whoever hatched this plan) made it so Cordy would become a part demon then a higher being. Something must have happened when she ascended up there or when she came back down to earth. Connor the demon child was the icing on the cake that set the plan in its final phase.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

That was basically my take on it as well, but there are people with different opinions.

 

[--The Fallen--]

Wasn't there an episode where Skip explained it all.

I think how it happened was when (whoever hatched this plan) made it so Cordy would become a part demon then a higher being. Something must have happened when she ascended up there or when she came back down to earth. Connor the demon child was the icing on the cake that set the plan in its final phase.

I think he explained it in the episode where they summon him or whatever, and they trap him form getting away then Wesly kills him at the end. I'm not sure what episode that was though. But he said there was certain events that had to happen to lead up to it, and Darla getting pregnant having Connor and big events like that had a hand in the whole thing.

 

[eset]

This is from "Inside Out":

SKIP: (walks toward Angel) You know, the worst part about signing on for this gig (punches Angel) was having to take a dive when you rescued that runt Billy from his box of fire. (kicks Angel across the room) I mean, come on! You really think a guy built like this would be so easy to drop? (walks up to Angel again) This time we do it for real, champion. This time... (grins) you lose.

Later, when they fight, Angel beats Skip and brings him to the hotel, where we learn more:

SKIP: That thing which has turned your life into a burning ring of fire? She is the real Cordelia. (beat) Or at least she's in there somewhere. This whole thing...
GUNN: Is it Cordy or not?
SKIP: Oh, it's her. She just ain't driving.
ANGEL: Something took control of her on the higher plane?
SKIP: Drill a little deeper, Hoss. How you think she got there in the first place?
WESLEY: You're saying her ascension was all part of this thing's plan?
SKIP: No, Cordelia was chosen to become a higher being because she's such a pure, radiant saint. (scoffs) Puh-lease.
SKIP: You really think it matters? I mean, nothing I tell you is gonna change what's gonna happen.
ANGEL: Cut the gloom and doom. What's taken over Cordy?
SKIP: Something beyond your comprehension. To give it voice would rend your feeble brain into a quivering mass of"”OK, you got me. It doesn't even have a name.
GUNN: Then what do you call it?
SKIP: Oh, Master or "Hey."
LORNE: Unspeakable horror for real this time.
ANGEL: Ah, it doesn't make sense. Cordy was made a higher being because she proved herself to the Powers by bearing their visions. This thing couldn't have"”
WESLEY: Unless it maneuvered her to inherit the visions in the first place.
SKIP: Uh, oh. Better step on it. The rubes are catching up.
ANGEL: It wasn't just her ascension. Everything that's happened to Cordy in the past few years"”all of it"”was planned.
SKIP: You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.
GUNN: No way. We make our own choices.
SKIP: Yeah, sure. Cheese sandwich here, uh, when to floss. But the big stuff, like two vampires squeezing out a kid?
ANGEL: Connor.
WESLEY: An impossible birth to make one possible.
SKIP: That's what the kid was designed for.
LORNE: (chuckles) To sleep with mother love?
ANGEL: To create a vessel.
SKIP: Look out. The monkey's thinking again.
ANGEL: Being inside a human makes it vulnerable, doesn't it? That's why it had to stay hidden. Why it needed to create something stronger to pour itself into.
GUNN: Wait. So the big nasty inside of Cordy is going to give birth... to itself?
SKIP: Circle of life. It's a beautiful thing.

From what Skip tells Angel Inc, we can see that Jasmine has been manipulating the world to create these exact circumstances for generations (she may have even caused Darl and Angel to be sired). Skip has been involved at least since we first met him in season 3's "That Vision Thing", probably longer.

Personally, I think that Jasmine was stuck in the higher plane, and could only concieve herself into Cordelia once Cordelia was up there. Maybe Cordy's loss of memory was a defense mechanism to try to block out Jasmine's influence, but Angel et al were able to knock down her defences.

 

[Magui]

I think it happened in Spin The Bottle...not sure though

 

[Hitome]

Thanks for the transcript. I personally think that it is more interesting what Skip is not saying than what he is saying.
Angel provides the theory that something took control of Cordy after was on a higher plane, but notice that Skip doesn't answer him directly.

SKIP: Oh, it's her. She just ain't driving.
ANGEL: Something took control of her on the higher plane?
SKIP: Drill a little deeper, Hoss. How you think she got there in the first place?
WESLEY: You're saying her ascension was all part of this thing's plan?
SKIP: No, Cordelia was chosen to become a higher being because she's such a pure, radiant saint. (scoffs) Puh-lease.
SKIP: You really think it matters? I mean, nothing I tell you is gonna change what's gonna happen.
....

I don't think Skip can lie and his lack of answers her is particularly significant. Skip affirms that Cordy inherting the visions was necessary for Jasmine's birth but he doesn't say how. He also doesn't say who or what made Cordy a higher being only that she was "choosen" and that it had nothing to do with her goodness. If Skip is reliable, that would cancel out Angel's theory that she became a higher being because she deserved it. In other words it wasn't who Cordy was at the time that mattered, but what she was. I highly doubt that Skip was ever the Powers that Be's representative to Cordy. Remember that he was the one who appeared to Cordy when she assended. I personally doubt that the Powers took her to another plane. Jasmine is a Power that Was, if she could control the Powers that Be and make them assend Cordy then she wouldn't have to bother with any of the things she went through to be born. If the Powers are so stupid that Jasmine can trick them into doing her work for her the world is certainly doomed. Its more realistic to assume that Cordy was taken to a higher plane by the forces creating Jasmine not by the Powers. We all assume that the Powers are stupid, that they indirectly caused Jasmine, but if they are the real "Powers that Be" shouldn't they be able to detect the fact that Cordy either allready has Jasmine in her (like I think) or is a vessel awaiting Jasmine (like some of you argue)?

eset, the problem with your theory is that If Jasmine was on the higher plane, it seems very strange that the Powers put Cordy there.

In additon Skip doesn't tell when or how Jasmine entered Cordy, only that it was planned for a long time. His exact words are very interesting.

ANGEL: Ah, it doesn't make sense. Cordy was made a higher being because she proved herself to the Powers by bearing their visions. This thing couldn't have"”
WESLEY: Unless it maneuvered her to inherit the visions in the first place.
SKIP: Uh, oh. Better step on it. The rubes are catching up.

Notice that Skip affirms Wesley's statement as partially correct, but still states that Wesley and Angel have no idea what they are talking about. In other words the visions were essential for Cordy to be possessed by Jasmine, but Angel isn't correct about why. If Angel had gotten it right, Skip would not have kept his contemptous attitude and would not have gone into his speach about how everything was planned. He holds the knowledge about what happened Cordy and Angel's group doesn't. If they had guessed correctly, Skip should have reacted differently than he did. Also, Angel makes a series of assumptions about what happened to Cordy. Notice that Skip never corrects him, he just tells him that he's wrong. It's like a guessing game.

In my opinion, this scene supports that theory that the demon essence inside Cordy in "Birthday" was Jasmine far better than the theory that Jasmine possessed Cordy after she assended. However, clearly the assention was highly important for Jasmine to manifest. I think it makes most sense to say that Jasmine was in Cordy after "Birthday" but could not take full control until after Cordy had been on the higher plane.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I thought Connor had something to do with the creation of Jasmine. Wasn't that mentioned in the longer transcipt above??

Cordy getting the visions allowed the setup of the her being offered to become part demon which was necessary for the bringing forth of Jasmine. If Cordy wasn't being killed by her visions Skip wouldn't have had the chance to help in the coming of Jasmine.

 

[Hitome]

I thought Connor had something to do with the creation of Jasmine. Wasn't that mentioned in the longer transcipt above??

Connor was her father, remember. Sorry, if I wasn't clear in my post. When Jasmine entered this world in her own body she had to be born from Cordy so she needed Connor to be the father. I think it had to be Connor since he is the son of two vampires. I wasn't talking about her birth though, just the possessed Cordy part.

Cordy getting the visions allowed the setup of the her being offered to become part demon which was necessary for the bringing forth of Jasmine. If Cordy wasn't being killed by her visions Skip wouldn't have had the chance to help in the coming of Jasmine.

I agree with you completely here. I also think that the demon essence Skip placed in Cordy was Jasmine because of the evidence in "You're Welcome." Skip told Cordy that she would slip into a coma until she had the next vision and die then if she was human and kept the visions. He offered Cordy two choices. Give up the visions and live a happy life, or keep the visions and die. This was the Power's choices. Skip acted on his own volition, however, when Cordy wanted a third option. The demon essence that he put into her was Jasmine. There is no reason it should be anything else. Cordy felt no pain from the visions which means that the demon essence inside of her was very, very powerful. Doyle was half demon and he still got terrible headaches. The best evidence that there was nothing else other than Jasmine in Cordy is what happened after Jasmine was born. Cordy slipped back into unconciousness immediately. Then she remained in a coma until she had one last vision and died. My take: The vision's killed Cordy, and Jasmine entered her when she first met Skip.