PaulParmar1
Spuffy Forever
Imo it was Season 5 where they fell in love probably towards the end of it but I think they were in love by the Gift.
What does everyone else think?
What does everyone else think?
When do you believe Spuffy fell in love?
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Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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I think Season 4, episode 9 awoke the hidden desires that both had for one another since S2. It started then... not really sure when you could say they "fell in love" I think Buffy died before it could really happen.
PaulParmar1
Spuffy Forever
I would say then you probably thought they fell in love in Season 6 or Season 7 probably. Which is what a lot of Spuffy fans tend to think .
Skanky Vamp
You brought it up putting words in my mouth. I was just remarking on your comment about what I thought of S6 & 7.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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No. Not at all. Season 6 and 7 is an abomination as to what Spuffy was. I don't consider any of that love. Didn't and the time and even less now.
PaulParmar1
Could u delete this comment just cause its in the back steps
Spuffy freak
Agreed with PaulPaulmer here :)
Safe space should be kept safe :)
Safe space should be kept safe :)
SunnydaleGlitz
Potential
I think it happened at separate points - Spike fell in love with Buffy as early as S4, whereas Buffy I think it was more complex. Anytime in S6/S7 or even subconsciously in S5.
PaulParmar1
Spuffy Forever
Really good answer.
But I know they were both in love at separate times but I'd argue that by the Gift Buffy may have been in love.
But S6 is deffo where they were in love
SunnydaleGlitz
Potential
True. The only thing that confuses me is the way Buffy was to him in S6 (around when Riley returned briefly with his new wife.) She was so cruel to him. She beat him to a bloody pulp when he was trying to protect her from turning herself in to the police. He happily bore it all because he thought it would deflect her attention from turning herself in. He was pretty selfless at this point. Her actions probably had to do with extreme shame/turmoil at being with someone supposedly "evil" and soulless, fear of judgement, and her trauma post-death (comparable to Riley's existential confusion at not knowing what the right belief system was - and learning there are shades of grey..)
I do think, however, that for a woman to be that physically attracted to someone (she craved sex with him all the time despite all the things she kept saying) - you can't really do that unless there's some veiled emotion/feeling and not just lust. At least that's how I see it..it's hard to be completely unemotional about sex.
I do think, however, that for a woman to be that physically attracted to someone (she craved sex with him all the time despite all the things she kept saying) - you can't really do that unless there's some veiled emotion/feeling and not just lust. At least that's how I see it..it's hard to be completely unemotional about sex.
PaulParmar1
Spuffy Forever
I think she was trying to accept it in her heart that she loved Spike. There was hurt with S6 Spuffy but I love how real it was.
Spuffy freak
Potential
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I think for Spike it was s2. Mostly because what Dru said while dumping him, it might just be her future vision but I think the reason they showed that flashback and connected her dumping him for Buffy does indicate that he fell in love as early as s2. For Buffy I am not sure when exactly I am sure that she was in love with him in s6 but not sure when it started
SunnydaleGlitz
Potential
I totally get what you're saying and I think in this case it's probably true. But this is why I'm so uncomfortable with the AR/Seeing Red element and the direction they took Spike-Buffy's relationship because it hits uncomfortably close to certain real-life unhealthy trends. I can vouch for the fact that there do exist certain types of stalker-y guys who love to say that to you repeatedly when you say No (ex. "you're saying no, but I know that you're just scared...you don't know what you feel, you're scared that you're just as in love with me, you're in denial..etc.) It makes you want to scream, because you know you're own mind. They made Spike almost resemble this type of character briefly, which makes it seem born of obsession and delusion, not love. But I do really think Spike loved her genuinely, and selflessly. His actions prove it. And I think she projected a lot of self-loathing and fear onto him, which was unfair on him but which she realised eventually. And the love thing - I think that came when she started to respect him - his integrity, strength, loyalty. The respect mostly came in S7, but when she dumped him, ironically, that showed she did respect him. It was pretty sweet and respectful the way they spoke to each other in Hell's Bell's/ Anya's (non) wedding.
But I agree -- in this case I think you're right -- she was struggling to accept that she could connect deeply with Spike, and hated herself for it.
But I agree -- in this case I think you're right -- she was struggling to accept that she could connect deeply with Spike, and hated herself for it.
PaulParmar1
Spuffy Forever
I hated Seeing Red but it was important to the show. To get Spike his soul back, to make his redemption in S7 even more better. Spuffy had to hit rock bottom to make S7 even better.
SunnydaleGlitz
Potential
Fool for Buffy
I'm just being a big nerd again
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Fool for Love was the first time I saw Spike as in love with Buffy.
Never Leave Me was the first time I saw Buffy as in love with Spike, despite @Priceless's very convincing points about her loving him in season 6. And when he looks back at her after she said she believed in him I thought that was mutual in loveness.
Never Leave Me was the first time I saw Buffy as in love with Spike, despite @Priceless's very convincing points about her loving him in season 6. And when he looks back at her after she said she believed in him I thought that was mutual in loveness.
I think Spike's admiration of Buffy started in S2. I'm happy to accept he was falling for her subconsciously, and his interest in her, which we learn Dru had seen, was what kept bringing him back. It makes a lot of his actions/choices around her make more sense. His desire to be noticed, to be seen as an equal and 'prove' himself. When he has the dream in OOMM it is just the realisation of what was already there and growing. So I'd say Spike was drawn to Buffy in S2-4, admired her, but has consciously loved her and been in love with her since S5. The depth of his emotions for her meaningfully increases in S7 onwards though, once he is souled.
I do think his love was limited by his soullessness before then and focused too much on his own wants and opinions. Yes it came with good results sometimes and he definitely got it right on occasions, but it wasn't reliable and he did need his soul for the relationship to become healthy and their emotional/moral capacities to become equal. I appreciate some fans were disappointed that the show chose to go down that route, that he was limited and did need the soul, but I think it is better for verse consistency. Plus, to be honest, I think it is better for there to be meaningful separation between the guy Buffy is in a relationship with and the vampire that committed the horrific crimes that he did unsouled. Once he is souled he cares about all of his past, not just having hurt Buffy, and he is a better person for it. He is able to fight for the greater good, not just those he personally cares about and is able to become a hero who will sacrifice himself for the wider world. That Buffy's feelings for him deepen with his character gaining this depth just makes sense to me.
I think Buffy appreciated Spike in S5, what he could offer the mission and that he was serious about putting himself on the line for her/Dawn. I think choosing to kiss him in Intervention indicated that she was, at the very least, strongly attracted to him. Who kisses someone they were adamantly pushing away if they have no interest in them? It blatantly risks sustaining or reigniting their feelings. But I think it was all very slow burning for Buffy. She was interested in him despite herself back then, but only really started to personally care for him in S6. I can see her as developing some loving feelings towards him in that season, but I do think it was fundamentally limited by him being soulless. Whether you think his soullessness literally limited what her feelings could be for him or whether you see it as her own restriction on what she would allow herself to feel, we've debated before. Personally I think it did literally limit what she could feel for him when he was limited in moral and emotional capacities. But once he is souled that changes and I do think she comes to very openly show him love in S7.
I don't, however, think that she was ready to enter into a romantic relationship with him at that point. Yes I think she clearly loves him in S7 and meant it when she said it. But she wasn't certain of where she wanted it to go, not like she has come to be now. Obviously we are all considering our subjective interpretations of the characters as well as our understandings of the meaning of 'love' and being 'in love'. I think they loved each other openly and with depth from S7 on a whole different level to what they were both able to feel before. That they are currently very actively pursuing a romantic relationship I would count as being 'in love', as I think wanting that romantic connection is the difference in the terminology. For me anyway. So for the original question of when they, so both of them, fell 'in love', I'd say S10.
I do think his love was limited by his soullessness before then and focused too much on his own wants and opinions. Yes it came with good results sometimes and he definitely got it right on occasions, but it wasn't reliable and he did need his soul for the relationship to become healthy and their emotional/moral capacities to become equal. I appreciate some fans were disappointed that the show chose to go down that route, that he was limited and did need the soul, but I think it is better for verse consistency. Plus, to be honest, I think it is better for there to be meaningful separation between the guy Buffy is in a relationship with and the vampire that committed the horrific crimes that he did unsouled. Once he is souled he cares about all of his past, not just having hurt Buffy, and he is a better person for it. He is able to fight for the greater good, not just those he personally cares about and is able to become a hero who will sacrifice himself for the wider world. That Buffy's feelings for him deepen with his character gaining this depth just makes sense to me.
I think Buffy appreciated Spike in S5, what he could offer the mission and that he was serious about putting himself on the line for her/Dawn. I think choosing to kiss him in Intervention indicated that she was, at the very least, strongly attracted to him. Who kisses someone they were adamantly pushing away if they have no interest in them? It blatantly risks sustaining or reigniting their feelings. But I think it was all very slow burning for Buffy. She was interested in him despite herself back then, but only really started to personally care for him in S6. I can see her as developing some loving feelings towards him in that season, but I do think it was fundamentally limited by him being soulless. Whether you think his soullessness literally limited what her feelings could be for him or whether you see it as her own restriction on what she would allow herself to feel, we've debated before. Personally I think it did literally limit what she could feel for him when he was limited in moral and emotional capacities. But once he is souled that changes and I do think she comes to very openly show him love in S7.
I don't, however, think that she was ready to enter into a romantic relationship with him at that point. Yes I think she clearly loves him in S7 and meant it when she said it. But she wasn't certain of where she wanted it to go, not like she has come to be now. Obviously we are all considering our subjective interpretations of the characters as well as our understandings of the meaning of 'love' and being 'in love'. I think they loved each other openly and with depth from S7 on a whole different level to what they were both able to feel before. That they are currently very actively pursuing a romantic relationship I would count as being 'in love', as I think wanting that romantic connection is the difference in the terminology. For me anyway. So for the original question of when they, so both of them, fell 'in love', I'd say S10.
SunnydaleGlitz
[No message]
I agree with many things, that have already been said, that is why I can cut myself shorter ;.)
Dru saw Spike`s love for Buffy long before he did and as early as between season 2 and season 3. That is, how far it goes back for him, imho.
He knew in season 5, after that dream. I can see her trusting him - slowly - at the end of season 5, but I would not yet call it love from her side.
She had genuine feelings for him in season 6 - she says so in Seeing Red - and I believe, that she wanted to love him. I also believe, that she could not love him because he did not have a soul.
In season 7 she loved him and was in love with him (to me there is actually no difference betwen one and the other). I don`t know, when it started, but I believe, that a lot of her surpressed love from season 6 came to the surface, as soon as she realized, that she now could love him. It took her some time though, to admit her own feelings to herself. I believe, the moment, when she finally realizes, that she loves him, is, when he begs her to stake him in Sleeper and she can`t do it.
When she told him "I love you" at the end of Chosen, she meant it. And he believed her, no matter, what he said to her. But I also think, that they were both not at a point in their life, where they were ready for a mature and adult relationship. They both still had to grow and to find out, who they are and what they want from life (or unlife). That is, what they apparently do in the comics (although I still haven`t read them). To answer the original question, I therefore say, they were both in love with each other in season 7.
flow
Dru saw Spike`s love for Buffy long before he did and as early as between season 2 and season 3. That is, how far it goes back for him, imho.
He knew in season 5, after that dream. I can see her trusting him - slowly - at the end of season 5, but I would not yet call it love from her side.
She had genuine feelings for him in season 6 - she says so in Seeing Red - and I believe, that she wanted to love him. I also believe, that she could not love him because he did not have a soul.
In season 7 she loved him and was in love with him (to me there is actually no difference betwen one and the other). I don`t know, when it started, but I believe, that a lot of her surpressed love from season 6 came to the surface, as soon as she realized, that she now could love him. It took her some time though, to admit her own feelings to herself. I believe, the moment, when she finally realizes, that she loves him, is, when he begs her to stake him in Sleeper and she can`t do it.
When she told him "I love you" at the end of Chosen, she meant it. And he believed her, no matter, what he said to her. But I also think, that they were both not at a point in their life, where they were ready for a mature and adult relationship. They both still had to grow and to find out, who they are and what they want from life (or unlife). That is, what they apparently do in the comics (although I still haven`t read them). To answer the original question, I therefore say, they were both in love with each other in season 7.
flow
SunnydaleGlitz
[No message]
GoSpuffy
Vampire Lover, I mean Slayer
I think Spike was attracted to Buffy the moment he saw her. I think it became love in S4. Spike was faithful to Dru and didn't move on until after she left him. Yes, dru saw spike would love Buffy in the future and maybe thought they were destined to be together but Spike didn't know that yet. I think Buffy loved Spike by the end of S5. When she said "come in Spike" she knew how important that invitation was to him. When he looked up at her and said "you treat me like a man" she was touched by him.
buffy1990
"Every now and then, people surprise you."
Like many have said, I think they fell in love at different times. I have some mixed opinions about when, though.
I think Spike fell in love with Buffy (or realized he was in love) in season 5. However, his love was selfish. He had strong moments where he showed he could be selfless (Intervention, for example) but most of his actions toward and around Buffy were fueled by his desire to have her for himself or make her love him back. This is because he was soulless, and to be honest I don't really think you can love selflessly without a soul. It was an obsessive love. Then, when Spike gained his soul, I believe he truly fell in love with her...the kind of love where Buffy's happiness mattered more than his own.
I do not think Buffy loved Spike through most of the show. In season 5 (the second half), she views him as somewhat of an ally and I think she sees the good he can be (as she does with many). In S6, being pulled from heaven sinks her to a point where she begins to see she and Spike have more in common, but it is pretty clear through much of the season that she does not trust Spike fully and their relationship goes back and forth between moments of real connection and moments of unhealthy abuse. Buffy definitely had strong feelings for Spike. When he returns in S7, these strong feelings, to me, are what drive her to protect him and believe in him. I think toward the second half of S7 it could be said that she was in truly love with him. I'm not entirely sure though, and I don't know if she really meant it. Spike didn't think she did-a clear contrast between the same moment at the end of season 11 when she tells him she loves him and he accepts it without question. So, as much as I love Buffy and Spike and ship them long-term, I really don't think Buffy truly loved him until mayyybee the end of S7, and most definitely in the comics.
I think Spike fell in love with Buffy (or realized he was in love) in season 5. However, his love was selfish. He had strong moments where he showed he could be selfless (Intervention, for example) but most of his actions toward and around Buffy were fueled by his desire to have her for himself or make her love him back. This is because he was soulless, and to be honest I don't really think you can love selflessly without a soul. It was an obsessive love. Then, when Spike gained his soul, I believe he truly fell in love with her...the kind of love where Buffy's happiness mattered more than his own.
I do not think Buffy loved Spike through most of the show. In season 5 (the second half), she views him as somewhat of an ally and I think she sees the good he can be (as she does with many). In S6, being pulled from heaven sinks her to a point where she begins to see she and Spike have more in common, but it is pretty clear through much of the season that she does not trust Spike fully and their relationship goes back and forth between moments of real connection and moments of unhealthy abuse. Buffy definitely had strong feelings for Spike. When he returns in S7, these strong feelings, to me, are what drive her to protect him and believe in him. I think toward the second half of S7 it could be said that she was in truly love with him. I'm not entirely sure though, and I don't know if she really meant it. Spike didn't think she did-a clear contrast between the same moment at the end of season 11 when she tells him she loves him and he accepts it without question. So, as much as I love Buffy and Spike and ship them long-term, I really don't think Buffy truly loved him until mayyybee the end of S7, and most definitely in the comics.
TriBel
Scooby
What always astounds me is the amnesia that surrounds this sentence:
BUFFY: Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?
Why (adverb "For what reason") does (third-person singular simple present indicative form of do. "Do" used with another verb (in this case, "to think") to form questions) everybody (pronoun "all the people in a group") in (preposition "enclosed") this (determiner - identifies a specific thing being indicated) house (noun "a building for human habitation") think (verb "have a particular belief or idea") I'm (contraction - I - pronoun used as the subject of the verb to refer to the person speaking: am - first person singular of the verb be) still (adverb "up to and including the present or the time mentioned") in (adverb? describing a relationship between people) love (noun "a strong feeling of affection") with (preposition "what person or thing you have a particular feeling towards) Spike (noun - proper name)?
I may have made some errors but I've persuaded myself it's definitely in English. It's not the most profound sentence I've ever read but nor is it the most complicated. In fact, I'd say it was fairly straightforward. I know it's not in the shooting script and rumour has it SMG added the "still" but other small changes were made, which makes me think they wanted it transmitted this way. You can debate the meaning of the term "love" but you can't deny she said it. "Still" doesn't make much sense to me if you consider the "love" began in S7. In fact, the only way I can make sense of her actions (including taking Dawn to Spike after the AR) is to see a continuum from S6 (at least) with a hiatus for the AR (although the "can't love you" here bothers me). There's also this from Lovers Walk: "Buffy:...I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. (shakes her head) Or Spike, for some reason". I think there's a difference between what she consciously admits to and her unconscious feelings. I'd argue throughout 6 she's making a conscious effort not to love him but, as she says, she's not fooling herself and she's not fooling him. It's the only way I can accommodate her contradictory behaviour in the season. I'd argue in 6 she loves "William" or the "man" but can't (her favourite word) love his monster.
When he began to love her is difficult to establish. He had an obsession with Slayers from the moment he knew of their existence. There was an obsession with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer from the moment he saw her. However, IMO, the obsession was different because unconsciously she reminded him of Anne. I know Marsters was only meant to last a season so it must have been "fortuitous" that his first lines are "Home, sweet home" (somewhere new but strangely familiar). I'm not a great believer in coincidence but it enabled them to retroactively figure the significance of his mother. It's no coincidence that both Slayers he kills are "foreigners" (one Chinese, one black - not familiar) or the first mentions her mother, the second is a mother. I've said all this before so I'm not dwelling on it except to say this obsession takes the form of simultaneous love/hate.
I don't think he was consciously aware he loved Buffy (as opposed to his love/hate for the Slayer) until Out of My Mind (it was out of his mind until the dream - dreams are the "royal road to the unconscious"). Resolving conflict (his man/monster dichotomy and reconciling his love for Buffy with her role of slayer was, IMO, the reason he went to Africa). This doesn't annul his claim he went to restore his soul - I just think, at this point, he was unaware the soul would be the vehicle that enabled it. So - at various stages in the series - both love the human part of each other - it's not until S7 they begin to love the demon in each other (and this involves loving the demon in themselves).
BUFFY: Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?
Why (adverb "For what reason") does (third-person singular simple present indicative form of do. "Do" used with another verb (in this case, "to think") to form questions) everybody (pronoun "all the people in a group") in (preposition "enclosed") this (determiner - identifies a specific thing being indicated) house (noun "a building for human habitation") think (verb "have a particular belief or idea") I'm (contraction - I - pronoun used as the subject of the verb to refer to the person speaking: am - first person singular of the verb be) still (adverb "up to and including the present or the time mentioned") in (adverb? describing a relationship between people) love (noun "a strong feeling of affection") with (preposition "what person or thing you have a particular feeling towards) Spike (noun - proper name)?
I may have made some errors but I've persuaded myself it's definitely in English. It's not the most profound sentence I've ever read but nor is it the most complicated. In fact, I'd say it was fairly straightforward. I know it's not in the shooting script and rumour has it SMG added the "still" but other small changes were made, which makes me think they wanted it transmitted this way. You can debate the meaning of the term "love" but you can't deny she said it. "Still" doesn't make much sense to me if you consider the "love" began in S7. In fact, the only way I can make sense of her actions (including taking Dawn to Spike after the AR) is to see a continuum from S6 (at least) with a hiatus for the AR (although the "can't love you" here bothers me). There's also this from Lovers Walk: "Buffy:...I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. (shakes her head) Or Spike, for some reason". I think there's a difference between what she consciously admits to and her unconscious feelings. I'd argue throughout 6 she's making a conscious effort not to love him but, as she says, she's not fooling herself and she's not fooling him. It's the only way I can accommodate her contradictory behaviour in the season. I'd argue in 6 she loves "William" or the "man" but can't (her favourite word) love his monster.
When he began to love her is difficult to establish. He had an obsession with Slayers from the moment he knew of their existence. There was an obsession with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer from the moment he saw her. However, IMO, the obsession was different because unconsciously she reminded him of Anne. I know Marsters was only meant to last a season so it must have been "fortuitous" that his first lines are "Home, sweet home" (somewhere new but strangely familiar). I'm not a great believer in coincidence but it enabled them to retroactively figure the significance of his mother. It's no coincidence that both Slayers he kills are "foreigners" (one Chinese, one black - not familiar) or the first mentions her mother, the second is a mother. I've said all this before so I'm not dwelling on it except to say this obsession takes the form of simultaneous love/hate.
I don't think he was consciously aware he loved Buffy (as opposed to his love/hate for the Slayer) until Out of My Mind (it was out of his mind until the dream - dreams are the "royal road to the unconscious"). Resolving conflict (his man/monster dichotomy and reconciling his love for Buffy with her role of slayer was, IMO, the reason he went to Africa). This doesn't annul his claim he went to restore his soul - I just think, at this point, he was unaware the soul would be the vehicle that enabled it. So - at various stages in the series - both love the human part of each other - it's not until S7 they begin to love the demon in each other (and this involves loving the demon in themselves).
Priceless
I love this post and agree with everything :-)
Fool for Buffy
I'd call "this" a demonstrative adjective but otherwise you nailed the grammar lol :)
Maybe it's an American term.
Maybe it's an American term.
I think Spike was sexual attracted to her since S2, James has also said that he played that scene in the Bronze when he saw her dancing in that way. Fool for Love and Intervention are the episodes where I can see that he loves her and is not just an obsession, and once he got the soul is when he can have a healthy relationship with Buffy, I love the contrast between the “Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything” and the Crush scene when he´s demanding something from Buffy, it´s a great development for his character.
With Buffy is more complicated, Dead Things and Hell´s Bells show me that it wasn´t only sex or self loathing/comfort like Buffy wants to believe, there were deeper feelings, and on S7 I have no doubt that she loves him, for me is the last scene on Showtime that speaks for itself.
With Buffy is more complicated, Dead Things and Hell´s Bells show me that it wasn´t only sex or self loathing/comfort like Buffy wants to believe, there were deeper feelings, and on S7 I have no doubt that she loves him, for me is the last scene on Showtime that speaks for itself.
white avenger
white avenger
I'm too old and jaded to believe in love at first sight, not by Buffy, not by Spike, and not by any other unnamed ensouled vampire. I do believe that Spike felt drawn to Buffy from the first moment that he laid eyes on her in "School Hard," but it was the kind of attraction that a warrior feels for a potential challenger. It took years for that attraction to develop into actual love. I think that Spike first realized that he was actually in love, not just obsessed, with Buffy, was when Glory was torturing him, and he actually realized that her well being, and the well being of her family, were more important to him than his own life.
It took Buffy awhile longer, possibly because she placed such value on what her friends would think of her if she had feelings for a soulless vampire. Spike regaining his soul, and knowing his reasons for doing so, no doubt made it easier for her to finally accept her feelings, though I don't think that the soul, itself, was the deciding factor.
It took Buffy awhile longer, possibly because she placed such value on what her friends would think of her if she had feelings for a soulless vampire. Spike regaining his soul, and knowing his reasons for doing so, no doubt made it easier for her to finally accept her feelings, though I don't think that the soul, itself, was the deciding factor.