Question When Does Humanity End?

[thrasherpix]

I got curious. I know some include Faith and Gwendolyn Post (plus Glove) as human (and thus Buffy should be careful not to kill them, at least not actively seek to do so). So where do you draw the line? Did Caleb still count as human? If not, what is the difference with say Faith (also super strength if less of it) if you think there is a difference in how Buffy should be allowed to fight them?

I'm also curious what people think on someone who is a witch (including males like Ethan Rayne) and those with what I call technomagic (I've seen others call it AbsurdTech) such as the Trio fall into this. They should be considered supernatural threats, but do they still count as human? Should Buffy endeavor to turn them over to the human authorities and hope for the best? What if the justice system can't really hold them if they don't want to be held (as describes Faith)?


Feel free to talk on circumstances (such as self-defense of self or others) or expand on what Giles meant by Buffy is a hero because she wouldn't end Ben after defeating Glory. But my curiosity here is focused on when does someone cross a line that they're not the same protected class (at least from the Slayer) as other humans?

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

If they play in the supernatural sandbox, they are fair game. If they are trying to kill Buffy, it is self defense. If they are going after others, protecting them trumps anything else.

Buffy and co did kill humans. They just did not appoint themselves judge jury & executioner. This was the right bslance.

- Giles killed Ben.

- Buffy killled the two German brothers who tried to kill her and Cordelia (slayerfest)
- Buffy killed Gwendolyn Post because she had to stop her
- Buffy killed or attempted to kill multiple Knights of Byzantium for survival.

I think there is at least one more i missed.,

She should have killed Warren or allowed April to kill him. He was not stoppable by normal means. Had he been killed during the robbery at the carnival, Tara would not have died.

She did not know Ted was not human when she fought with him. She second guessed herself but if she had not fought him both she and Joyce would have died.

I think Giles was wrong. He believed the Watcher's Council line a bit too much. Yes, Buffy was a hero, but she is quite capable of sacrificing herself and others in order to protect the planet. She could and did do whatever was necessary - and sometimes got flack for it.

Honestly, there are some situations when heroes have to do horrible things.

Many MoH recipients received the medal for killing people, sometimes whole heaps of them, in order to protect their fellow soldiers and/or complete the mission. Saving the world is more important than most historic wars.

I therefore give Buffy a lot of lattitude, though i am very grateful she rarely abuses that tremendous power.

Some demons (Clem) were more deserving of mercy than some humans. Some people need protecting.

Sometimes perpetrators must be stopped so they can't return and hurt more people or end the world & locking them up is not feasible.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The Slayer's mandate is to defend the world from Vampires, Demons and the Forces of Darkness. That would include being the Hammer of Dark Witches and other Malefactors. If, in her judgement, she encounters one who is too powerful to be safely captured, terminal force is allowed.

"Selfless" has Buffy claiming to be the Supernatural version of an A.D. 2000 Judge, in regards to Anya.

As far as the hero goes, generally, a hero is supposed to defend the innocent and protect the weak, to subscribe to some kind of higher moral code that makes him or her more than just a thug who is slightly less violent than the opposition. This is important when Buffy's claim to power is divine right. This is probably why Giles understands himself as the wetworks guy, because Buffy's inner nobility must be preserved, as watcher, his is expendable.

The other thing to remember is, Buffy has superpowers. There aren't a lot of humans who truly pose a threat to her, and she should try for non-lethal force.

I think Faith was justified. She struck first, and if she managed to kill both Angel and Buffy, it was over for the good guys. The Cold War was going hot.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Yeeaah!
If indeed that was the Slayers mandate, was it written by some do-wanna be's of some church or other, or the Watchers Council? Could it have been written by the Powers That Be and if so who knew it was them who wrote it?

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Of course Buffy should hold herself to the highest standard. I just don't expect her to do a Batman and keep throwing back the bad guys so they come back over and over and keep destroying lives.

There is a reason she is super powered. It is to STOP the forces of darkness cold where possible. Just because the forces of darkness happen to wear a human face does not render them "better" and more worthy of life.

If they want to hurt the planet and destroy lives, she has the duty and the power to stop that. She should *not* be out hunting down human criminals doing human crimes and deciding their fate.

If Buffy had let Gwendolyn live because she was human, a world of trouble would have opened up.

In the case of Ben, i think the calculus might have been that TV audiences might have been squicked if she was shown killing someone who appeared helpless. I probably would have had it been a more active fight.

It may be that the watchers wanted the slayer to be unwilling or unable to stomach killing humans because they were scared she would kill them when the mistreated her.

It read like a control ploy at times.

Still, I think a slayer does need a guide, especially early on.

No slayer should come to believe herself all powerful. Abuse of power is not what we want when someone has that much power.

Of course, that applies to the council too. They misuse their power routinely and have become quite corrupt.