Where was Wesley planning on taking Connor?

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Poppy royal

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I suppose he was planning on raising him but where could he have gone that angel and the gang couldn't find him?
 
As far away from Angel as physically possible.

Angel isn't omnipotent. He doesn't know everything and he doesn't have unlimited powers at his disposal that he could have used to track Wesley down. By using fake names and never staying in one place for too long, Wesley could have kept Connor away from Angel for a long, long time. He could have even taken him to another dimension, somewhere similar to Pylea, without the 'humans are cattle' issue, and then Angel never would have been able to track him down.

I'm not saying Wesley was right in this instance, because he was very, VERY wrong, but he could have kept Connor away from Angel for a long time if he played it right.
 
Angel's resources were definitely limited at that time. There's no way that he could have even afforded the expense of chasing Wes all over the world, when he couldn't afford to pay the back taxes on his hotel. Wes, on the other hand, almost certainly could have afforded to get Connor and himself back to England where he had family (surely not everyone in the Wyndam-Pryce family shared his father's dislike toward him) and friends who could have helped him. Just the fact that he was so far away would have reduced, if not totally eliminated any danger to himself or (he believed) to Connor, at least long enough for him to get some explanation back to Angel as to his actual motives, using Angel's own favorite argument that it was "for the greater good" that he and and his son be kept apart, at least long enough to ascertain whether or not the danger was real or just a hoax. Angel might not have liked it, he may have broken quite a bit of furniture venting his rage, but then almost certainly, Cordy and the others could have convinced him to at least give Wes long enough to be sure Wes hadn't been right in what he did.
 
Wesley would've taken Connor to England and tried to use what family/Watcher connections he had to safeguard the child.

white avenger said:
Just the fact that he was so far away would have reduced, if not totally eliminated any danger to himself or (he believed) to Connor, at least long enough for him to get some explanation back to Angel as to his actual motives,
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Wesley gave all indications that he was saying a permentant goodbye to Angel and the others when he abducted Connor- he wasn't going to contact them again. As far as he was concerned Wesley knew best because he has translated the prophecy (which didn't have an expiration date on it) and so had to keep Connor safe from Angel. He didn't know if Angel would kill Connor in two days or twenty years, he just 'knew' that it would happen because all the sources told him so.

white avenger said:
using Angel's own favorite argument that it was "for the greater good" that he and and his son be kept apart,
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*any opportunity to slam Angel right? Even when its about his son getting abducted*
There is no 'greater good' here, there is just Wesley preventing his friend from doing something henious by betraying him. Wesley is sacrificing his own future to safe guard Connor's- a straight up exchange.

white avenger said:
at least long enough to ascertain whether or not the danger was real or just a hoax.
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Wesley thought he knew that the prophecy was 100% real- everywhere he turned he was told it was real- which is why he was doing something so drastic as betraying his friend.
It never had entered into his mind that this was any sort of hoax and so he wouldn't have a reason to risk discovery by contacting Angel and co. Wesley was gone and Angel would've spent years trying to track them down- probably all by his lonesome as he abandons his LA mission to go and find his only familial connection to the world.
 
thetopher said:
*any opportunity to slam Angel right? Even when its about his son getting abducted*
There is no 'greater good' here, there is just Wesley preventing his friend from doing something henious by betraying him. Wesley is sacrificing his own future to safe guard Connor's- a straight up exchange.
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I'm not "slamming" Angel at all. Serving what Wes considers to be the greater good should be something that Angel should agree with, or at least see the logic in, since it's something that he, himself, has done before, and would continue to do in the future,

Being willing to sacrifice what is, in effect, the life that he had chosen for himself and almost certainly the trust and friendship of the people closest to him in order to avert what he saw as a very real threat to both Angel and his miracle son certainly seems like an attempt to serve the greater good to me.

Wes being who he is, I simply can't imagine him not continuing to investigate the prophecy's validity and attempting to find some way to possibly counteract or avert it, and I also can't see him not at some point wanting to explain to someone, maybe not Angel, but certainly Cordy, what he had done, and why. There would have been no real danger to himself in doing so, since I seriously doubt that he would have revealed exactly where he was, and I think that he would have wanted to assure everyone that Connor was safe and happy.
 
white avenger said:
I'm not "slamming" Angel at all. Serving what Wes considers to be the greater good should be something that Angel should agree with, or at least see the logic in, since it's something that he, himself, has done before, and would continue to do in the future,
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Well I think we'll agree to disagree on this. I doubt Angel would ever agree that kidnapping his son and taking him far, far away was the best way to protect him.

Also, I take it you're referencing Buffy and 'IWRY'- in that Angel at least had the heart to tell Buffy what he was doing before it was done. Wesley doesn't see the need.

Also Wesley is doing this as a 'first resort' (he doesn't confide in anybody- such as Fred or Cordy when she returns he just acts unilaterally) unlike Angel who did a couple of similar things (though not comparable) on the show as a last resort.

white avenger said:
Wes being who he is, I simply can't imagine him not continuing to investigate the prophecy's validity and attempting to find some way to possibly counteract or avert it,
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Wesley had already investigated the prophecey from every conceivable angle which is why he was fleeing- he believed in the prophecy whole-heartedly which is the only thing that explains his desperate actions. If he had any more doubts then presumably he would've stayed longer.

Wesley is at heart, a Watcher and he's all about duty/loyalty. He would do what was nessery to keep Connor safe and keep Angel from having his son's blood on his hands- so no risk of contact just to say 'oh, soory for the betrayal but Connor's happy enough'.

As for explanations, Wesley could just leave a note of explanation- in fact he did leave bunches of notes behind that explained his thinking- Fred found them and figured out his reasoning.
 
I don't think Wesley had a plan at that point, he was just thinking "Get Connor far, far away from Angel". I don't think he would have gone to England; Angel would know to look for him there. He would probably go somewhere to raise the boy, and maybe continue researching the prophecy to see if there was a loop-hole or expiration date so he could some day reunite the two if possible.

As for the other issue, in both the Scoobies and Fang Gang there is a serious problem with communication. Almost every character has made (usually poor) decisions based on limited information and without consulting the group and others involved. It's not just Angel or Wesley or Willow. Some of the decisions have had more dire/serious consequences than others, but mostly the situations just end badly.
 
janas
janas
As Buffy said: The good guys aren't traditionally known for their communication skills.
thetopher said:
Well I think we'll agree to disagree on this. I doubt Angel would ever agree that kidnapping his son and taking him far, far away was the best way to protect him.

Also, I take it you're referencing Buffy and 'IWRY'- in that Angel at least had the heart to tell Buffy what he was doing before it was done. Wesley doesn't see the need.

Also Wesley is doing this as a 'first resort' (he doesn't confide in anybody- such as Fred or Cordy when she returns he just acts unilaterally) unlike Angel who did a couple of similar things (though not comparable) on the show as a last resort.



Wesley had already investigated the prophecey from every conceivable angle which is why he was fleeing- he believed in the prophecy whole-heartedly which is the only thing that explains his desperate actions. If he had any more doubts then presumably he would've stayed longer.

Wesley is at heart, a Watcher and he's all about duty/loyalty. He would do what was nessery to keep Connor safe and keep Angel from having his son's blood on his hands- so no risk of contact just to say 'oh, soory for the betrayal but Connor's happy enough'.

As for explanations, Wesley could just leave a note of explanation- in fact he did leave bunches of notes behind that explained his thinking- Fred found them and figured out his reasoning.
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Wasn't taking taking (or sending) Connor far, far away seen as the best way to protect him pretty much what Angel did at the end of Season 4? He saw a real danger, and acted to cope with it to the best of his ability at that moment. Granted, you might see some difference between what Wes saw as an innocent baby being threatened by his father, and a badly traumatized and extremely troubled teen, but in both cases, making an attempt at removing Connor from the situation and the quite likely life threatening circumstances that existed at their respective times seem quite similar to me, and Angel also acted in a "first resort" manner for the very same reason that Wes had done earlier. Both men saw Connor in deadly peril with no time to weigh options or seek alternatives. Wes took Baby Connor away because he believed that a very real, ant possibly very immediate risk existed, and the longer he waited, the greater the danger became. Yes, he was played by Angel's enemies, but didn't the Senior partners do exactly the same thing with Angel just a year later, and under the same apparent circumstances?

As you point out, Wes was trained from childhood as a Watcher, and I have little doubt that a large portion of that training involved research, research, and more research. I can't imagine him just taking the attitude that simply removing Connor from the area of immediate danger was any sort of long term solution. We have seen more than once in the Buffyverse that prophecies might be postponed, but they are never completely inescapable. With that in mind, I believe that Wes would have devoted all of his time once away from Angel's immediate vicinity to exhausting every avenue of research with the purpose of prolonging Connor's life for as long as might be possible, and, most likely, within the course of that research, finding out that it was, indeed, a hoax.

And, though my dislike for the episode "I Will Remember You" is very well documented here, I have never doubted that Angel's intentions were sincere at the time, just as they were when he pretty much broke off his relationship with Buffy after discovering the facts about his curse. In both instances, he sincerely believed that he was acting for the greater good, both to protect Buffy and to fulfill a mission for the Powers.

That is why I believe as I do, and if we must agree to disagree on the subject, then so be it.
 
Oh yeah, it was Holtz feeding Justine some story about taking him to live at a farm right?
In my head that was Wesley's plan but when I think about it that kind of makes no sense 😳...lol. Wesley on a farm. 😛
 
Wesley's plan, at that moment, was to go far away as possible from Angel, waiting for better times (and that's good), but I still don't understand why he has not asked for help to Lorne, instead to bashing he at his head (and that's not good)
 
janas said:
Wesley's plan, at that moment, was to go far away as possible from Angel, waiting for better times, but I still don't understand why he has not asked for help to Lorne, instead to bashing he at his head.
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He probably didn't trust Lorne enough.
 
I think Wesley felt isolated from everybody because of personal circumstances and that is what clouded his judgement. I think that when he left he was convincing himself that he would never come back.
 
janas said:
Yes, Wesley didn't trust anyone, but has he real reasons not to trust his friends? I still think that the awareness of having lost Fred has clouded Wesley's rational judgment.
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I think that Wesley was just that guy. The guy who never truly trusted anybody. He was a Watcher, trained to be the one to make the tough decisions (even with loved ones. Like shooting his dad...)

I mean losing Fred probably didn't help, but I think he always had trust issues and that that was extended to his friends. The people he trusted the most were out of commission - Angel (for obvious reasons) and Cordy was off with Groo. I don't think he would have talked to Cordy either though... because she would've talked to Angel. Gunn, Fred and Lorne were all too new to his life to be truly trusted yet.

Wesley was just always kind of isolated. In the same way as Giles kind of was too. At the end of the day, they were always the one willing to make the tough choices (taking Connor/killing Ben)
 
janas said:
Wesley's plan, at that moment, was to go far away as possible from Angel, waiting for better times (and that's good), but I still don't understand why he has not asked for help to Lorne, instead to bashing he at his head (and that's not good)
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In retrospect, I'm sure that Wes asked himself the same thing, and probably imagined dozens of alternatives to the actions that he actually took, pretty much in the same way that Spike saved Buffy every night that she was gone between Seasons 6 and 7. He was played very skillfully and manipulated into a situation and a mind set where he saw no alternative to what he actually did, and was given no time to actually consider the aftermath of his plan. If he had taken the time, trusted his friends, even confided in Angel, things would certainly have played out much better. His intentions were certainly good, even if his actions proved to be disastrous.
 
thetopher said:
I think Wesley felt isolated from everybody because of personal circumstances and that is what clouded his judgement. I think that when he left he was convincing himself that he would never come back.
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He really did believe that Angelus was peeking out - a baby can make some pretty perfect happiness, and feeding him Connor's blood had him acting pretty Angelus like. Under those circumstances anyone he told would be in danger, and if they told Angelus they would be in worse danger.

I've always kinda wondered how long it would take before Connor gave him a moment of perfect happiness.
 
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