I always felt that way too but I wondered if it was part of the spell? Like her brain was disappearing or her inhibitions were tampered? It’s been a while since I saw the ep so I can’t recall if they talk about this.
Which Buffy Is Your Least Favourite & Why?
- Thread starter thetopher
- Start date
I always felt that way too but I wondered if it was part of the spell? Like her brain was disappearing or her inhibitions were tampered? It’s been a while since I saw the ep so I can’t recall if they talk about this.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Wasn't it a invisibility ray rather than a spell? Season 6 was all about stupid gadgets; invisibility rays, freeze rays, mind-control sphere, etc.
Mrs Gordo
Ahh yes..but something about her disappearing completely I remember that.
Evil Seal
The Blake Bortles of whatever's going on right now
I actually love that we get to see all those Buffies. Especially what some are calling OOC behaviour in s07. I admit I can't really relate to her in this season but that's what I find so interesting. We get to see so many different stages in her life and it's what always amazes me and what I always lead with when suggesting BtVS to someone. She's human, of course she's going to be lost and confused in college, depressed and traumatised after waking up in a coffin, and yes, cold and unrelatable when she feels misunderstood and as if the world rested on her shoulders (while Giles is pushing her in the same direction). I love when the characters have flaws, however big they are.
Though I'm always a little annoyed by her in Gone as well
Though I'm always a little annoyed by her in Gone as well
SunnydaleGlitz
Potential
You know, I've never fully got around to this as well. Like you, I can fully empathise with Buffy's pain. I also fully understand that her experience of the real world was hellish, and something she wanted to escape from.
However: the fact that she was OK with the idea of being permanently dead, even preferred being dead in 'heaven' forever, felt not very Slayer-like to me. Don't get me wrong, it's a very powerful metaphor and it's very Hamlet-ian... personally I think it was a good authentic touch and made the Slayer's experience of trauma feel very real (the loss of her mother, the endless battle a Slayer faces, the responsibility for others, could lead to her feeling suicidal from the pressure and sadness). But being dead isn't what the Slayer ever wants, or ever wanted in the long term, so Buffy's feelings while very real, were wrong at this point. This is confirmed when she admonishes Cassie Newton in S7's 'Help' for her laid back acceptance of her impending death "that doesn't sound like someone who wants to live!"
I always read that to mean that while Buffy could be justifiably exhausted from all the pressure to "happy" at being brought back, I still think in the long term Willow's actions in bringing her back from the dead made her grateful. Not at the time when it happened, but in the future.
And so as not to derail the thread: I love all the Buffies. Don't even have a least favourite.
W
WillowFromBuffy
I think other slayers may have given up on life, but I didn't want Buffy to join them. Buffy redefined what a slayer is.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
DayDreamer27
Potential
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Season 7, followed closely by season 6.
But I try to be easier on her in season 6 because she's suffering severe depression and just went wild trying to feel something and take her mind away from being pulled from Heaven. due to the trauma, and the hardships she's come right back to, she kinda became a bad girl -more like Faith. So despite finding her behavior with Spike shameless at best and sometimes disgusting at worst, I do try to remember we're dealing with a depressed girl in her 20's who has WAY more on her plate than most that age. You can say the same in season 7, but she just came off too heartless there in some cases, and more dictator that treated the potentials like expendable red-shirts and choosing Spike over Giles, then callously saying she'd let him murder Wood, and being a hypocrite still hating on Faith, despite forgiving her attempted rapist, and being exactly like Faith in season 6 during her depression, where she should see how easy it is to fall from grace under trauma.
But I try to be easier on her in season 6 because she's suffering severe depression and just went wild trying to feel something and take her mind away from being pulled from Heaven. due to the trauma, and the hardships she's come right back to, she kinda became a bad girl -more like Faith. So despite finding her behavior with Spike shameless at best and sometimes disgusting at worst, I do try to remember we're dealing with a depressed girl in her 20's who has WAY more on her plate than most that age. You can say the same in season 7, but she just came off too heartless there in some cases, and more dictator that treated the potentials like expendable red-shirts and choosing Spike over Giles, then callously saying she'd let him murder Wood, and being a hypocrite still hating on Faith, despite forgiving her attempted rapist, and being exactly like Faith in season 6 during her depression, where she should see how easy it is to fall from grace under trauma.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
She did forgive Faith, the one who actually raped her, as well as a whole bunch of other things. Spike was neither as creative nor as successful in his attempts to harm Buffy.
Buffy was nothing like Faith during S6. Apart from short moments in Once More with Feeling, Gone and Normal Again, she never stops trying to be the hero and even if she struggles to be a caregiver to Dawn, she tries, which I think should count for a lot. Faith's claim that "[Buffy has] no idea what it's like on the other side" is complete rubbish, because Buffy has dealt with the trauma of loss and powerlessness since even before she came to Sunnydale, but she has always risen above it and hardly ever compromised herself.
In S6, Buffy takes care of Dawn, forgives and takes care of Willow after Wrecked, she performs her duty as slayer as well as working a day job to pay the bills for herself and Dawn. In S3, Faith went on a stabbing spree, strangled Xander while speaking of raping him, tried to unsoul Angel, poisoned Angel, killed two humans and one souled demon completely on purpose, aided in bringing forth an apocalypse... Who was ready to forgive her almost to the very end? Buffy!
DayDreamer27
Potential
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I am mainly thinking of her comments trying to discredit Faith by saying she used to kill people for fun when Faith opposes her behavior with the potentials in Empty Places. If I recall, Spike has killed people for fun, and she's fine with that. So why bring it up against Faith in that moment. And not being successful doesn't excuse intent, imo.
And I don't mean Buffy was homicidal like Faith. But sexually. In trying to cope with her trauma, she turned to depraved sex as a way of dealing with it, and treated Spike just as off-handed, disrespectful, and aggressively as Faith did her men. And bluntly telling him that she was using and he was a convenient. Her actions with Spike was very Faith-like behavior.
So given how far she fell in season 6, she's not perfect. But she acted very holier-than-thou isn season 7, which I enjoyed Anya telling her off about just being gifted over many there, rather than being better. She calls a potential who committed suicide an idiot, even though she liked being dead as opposed to resurrected in season 6, and engaged in an abusive relationship with Spike under pressure of everything. For for that very pathetic and low stint she was coming off of from that season, she was too uppity.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
I think it is a fair point. Faith's résumé isn't the best. I think that if Spike tried to wrestle control of the Scoobies, Buffy would point out that he is a previously homicidal vampire only recently endowed with a soul and lacks any of the qualities you would look for in a leader.
It is funny how different people see things 😛 Faith's uninhibited sexuality was one of the things I liked about her. I think Buffy could have learned something from Faith here. The Faith we meet early in S3 would have been great to have around during Buffy's Parker crisis.
Did Spike deserve to be treated with respect? The way he forced himself into Buffy's life, I am not sure he was in a position to ask anything back. It is not as if Buffy manipulated him by promising more than she was willing to give. Maybe Spike and Buffy's relationship drew forth some of Buffy's less admirable qualities, but I don't think she deserves to be compared to Faith, Spike or Anya.
Anya released a giant worm monster on Sunnydale and was given a finger wagging. Then she slaughters an entire frat house for bullying, almost killing the victim of said bullying and sets the heart-eating spider-monster loose upon the world. Later, she claims Spike gets preferential treatment. Buffy gives her Messiah-like forgiveness to anyone willing to ask for it.
thrasherpix
Scooby
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And Anya was right about giving Spike preferential treatment because he was still dangerous. When Anya was dangerous--a separate issue from deserving punishment--Buffy rammed a sword through Anya, but she wouldn't have done that to Spike even though he was still a monster that was dangerous who had killed and turned several people himself. Anya was rightly scared Spike would kill her and massacre the girls. Once the trigger was removed then fine, but Buffy gave Spike a break that she did not give Anya, because Anya had to rid herself of her demonic nature before Buffy was willing to let it go. Spike was allowed to remain an ever present danger even if he promised not to do it again. (Heck, Spike even wanted to be restrained but Buffy--the fake Buffy of season 7--wouldn't hear of it.)
I don't hold Buffy's willingness to forgive against her, I actually like that about her, but her letting her hot stud muffin run loose while a killer is not endearing, and was the moral equivalent of Buffy shrugging off that Anya was slaughtering a frat house (who knows, maybe the vampire psychologist would've been killed at that part had Spike not already murdered and turned him) saying if people don't like it then they should leave the Hellmouth, because she doesn't turn on her friends even if they are guilty ('course Willow OTOH...).
Again, because I'm sure this is a radical concept, I don't see Buffy as some supernatural Punisher punishing evil, but protecting the innocent from evil forces. And Spike got a pass that none of the others did, not even Anya. (One could argue Angel got a pass after he came back insane from Hell, but Buffy--the real one--chained him up and took a much more responsible effort to help him than the reckless way she'd do Trigger Spike in season 7.)
I don't hold Buffy's willingness to forgive against her, I actually like that about her, but her letting her hot stud muffin run loose while a killer is not endearing, and was the moral equivalent of Buffy shrugging off that Anya was slaughtering a frat house (who knows, maybe the vampire psychologist would've been killed at that part had Spike not already murdered and turned him) saying if people don't like it then they should leave the Hellmouth, because she doesn't turn on her friends even if they are guilty ('course Willow OTOH...).
Again, because I'm sure this is a radical concept, I don't see Buffy as some supernatural Punisher punishing evil, but protecting the innocent from evil forces. And Spike got a pass that none of the others did, not even Anya. (One could argue Angel got a pass after he came back insane from Hell, but Buffy--the real one--chained him up and took a much more responsible effort to help him than the reckless way she'd do Trigger Spike in season 7.)
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Faith wasn't 'wrestling control' or anything, she simply objecting to Buffy's tactics. She even says 'I don't want control, Buffy's the one you want, she just needs a break' but y'know, I guess she gets the blame because 'always the bad slayer' and Buffy is perfect. 🙄
Also at least Faith had the grace to apologize for her crimes to Buffy (twice), AND Buffy got to confront Faith for the horrible things she did to her, and then Faith goes away for a very long time without bothering Buffy. And then when she returns she demands nothing from Buffy, just simply offers to help.
None of that happens with Buffy/Spike.
Eh, Spike slaughtered a dozen or so people whilst mind-controlled and Buffy doesn't really care about the mind-control at all. A episode or two before the mutiny Spike hurt Dawn in a trigger-rage and Buffy cared more about Spike.
Basically I think you're giving Buffy way too much credit.
EarthLogic
Scooby
I understand you have very strong feelings about Faith's actions but I'd be cautious about making such a blunt statement as it might be misconstrued. While the body-swap obviously raises issues of bodily consent and violation and can certainly be seen as analogous to rape, to state it so outrightly makes it sound as if you're saying Faith committed an actual, direct sexual assault on Buffy, which is of course not true.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
Sorry.
I mean, in a literal sense, it was rape. Yet, it does not work as an analogy to real life rape, because body possession is not possible and bear no resembles to how a sexual assault would happen in real life. The episode is not about abuse, but about Faith understanding the differences between herself and Buffy and getting to see herself from the outside. Therefore, using the word rape may not be appropriate.
May point was that Faith should be happy to be forgiven. I may have strong feelings about Faith and her actions, but I thought that should be obvious to anyone.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Faith raped Buffy in the same way that Willow raped Tara in S6; a violation/denial of consent. Only I guess Willow did it multiple times because a memory spell denies Tara any possibility of consent in regards to her relationship.
And of course it wasn't anything in comparison to Spike's actual, chilling, violent sexual assault which made an actor physically ill and was inspired by a writer's real life experiences.
But anything to diminish a serious subject with moral equivalency I guess.
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
✨ Hail Hydra ✨
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Absolutely agree.
No, no, no. That's not "rape." I think that some of you are just overly fond of that word.
Fool for Buffy
Seriously way too true
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Oh, I agree that it isn't rape. But some people y'know, think differently.
crazysoulless
Scooby
Someone does things with my genitals without my consent, that's rape.
Faith had sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent. That's rape.
Faith had sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent. That's rape.
FaithLehane16
"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
FaithLehane16
"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
S6 for me ,Buffy's character was destroyed , it went beyond dark , it went into the realms of S&M , sadistic sex , that's not who Buffy was......but if Buffy had not come back a head case and abandon by Giles ,etc how would Spuffy had happened ?
S7 it started OK not good because of the inclusions of Spike to early in the episodes , it started how Whedon had promised SMG back to basics , not sure when MN came back but after CWDP it became all about Spike. In S6 Buffy friends basically abandoned Buffy so Spuffy could happen, this could not happen in S7 as they all lived in one house, so Buffy had to abandon her friends for Spuffy to happen , hence Buffy acting completely out of Character again ........
S7 it started OK not good because of the inclusions of Spike to early in the episodes , it started how Whedon had promised SMG back to basics , not sure when MN came back but after CWDP it became all about Spike. In S6 Buffy friends basically abandoned Buffy so Spuffy could happen, this could not happen in S7 as they all lived in one house, so Buffy had to abandon her friends for Spuffy to happen , hence Buffy acting completely out of Character again ........