Which is the better show?

Which show do you prefer?

  • Angel

    Votes: 13 28.3%
  • Buffy

    Votes: 30 65.2%
  • I like them both equally

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Total voters
    46
Its about the context and the genre. In 1997 very few shows were putting females as their lead characters and even when they did they would be stereotypes. And Sci-Fi (or fantasy?) had a very bad track record for this. As for breaking gender roles? Well Buffy does that in the very first scene. It sets you up to believe that Darla is the helpless female victim adn then sweeps the rug out from under you. It sets Cordelia as the superfincial Queen B type but then she joins the Scoobies and gets to be way more smart, charming and funny than those characters are ever allowed to be. Willow is set up as the nerdy brain and has a fantastic and complex character arc from there.

I get that. But I was only aware of that after watching the show and all those things that you mentioned are just common place to me. I was never surprised by any of that. I know the show is culturally relevant and progressive for its time, but that's not enough to make it the better show. As far as feminism goes, it's a bit outdated. I admire the show for that, but it doesn't make me enjoy it more.

There are still all the times the show casually throws around the words: hooker, whore, slut, bitch, ho; Buffy in Halloween definitely perpetuating dumb stereotypes (" Dates are things normal girls have. Girls who have time to think about nail polish and facials and stuff.", and her dressing like a woman from the 18th century to please Angel"), how the girls are all feminine or girly and, in a way, portray one idea of femininity.
 
Buffy in Halloween definitely perpetuating dumb stereotypes (" Dates are things normal girls have. Girls who have time to think about nail polish and facials and stuff.", and her dressing like a woman from the 18th century to please Angel"), how the girls are all feminine or girly and, in a way, portray one idea of femininity.

But the show portrays Buffy as being wrong about that. She wants to be "feminine", at the expense of her own identity, and that almost costs her her life. And in the end Angel tells her that he doesn't even want that from her.

Meanwhile, Willow in that episode is a woman who's afraid of showing femininity (she's reluctant to wear a "slutty" costume, so she puts a ghost costume over it), and in the end she's not afraid of it anymore (she wears the "slutty" costume without shame).

So, it shows two opposing stereotypes about women, and it BREAKS both stereotypes, and it points out how these things are all just costumes, and not part of our true identity. It's actually one of the more subversive episodes, in terms of feminism, IMO.
 
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Very good points.
I voted for Angel. I like both, but as time goes on I find myself enjoying Angel more and BTVS less. For me, I think a big part of it is the fact that Angel has less characters/storylines that I really dislike...so overall it's more enjoyable. To me, nothing beats Angel season 2.

And as some have pointed out, there was a time on this board when this poll would have been neck and neck...
 
Buffy. The characters, story AND metaphors. Exeptional, without any doubt. 🙂

But Angel is still an "ok" spin off. But the characters (without Wesley) are really dull compared to characters like Buffy, Willow, Giles...
 
And as some have pointed out, there was a time on this board when this poll would have been neck and neck.

Oh, the good old days 😛

How do the fandom's preferences change with time? Considering what I've seen on the internet, I find it hard to believe that Angel and Buffy were ever tied as the best show.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I think it's just the ebb and flow of the Internet.
Could be wrong but I'm guessing than it used to be much closer because Angel was still on the air and or at least in the memory of fans. But now with sometime gone since it finshed it might just be a sign that Buffy has stood the test of time more. Plus all the focus on Buffy from acedemics makes a difference.
 
I think it's because Angel's more obscure. They barely showed it here and (here) it's not even on Netflix. It's not something every knows or have heard of simply. Buffy's more of an icon, doesn't really say it's stood the test of time better, just says it made more of an impact and might be (don't shoot me) somewhat overrated. Lol. I've read some of those academic papers and books on Buffy and some do pretty much acknowledge that fans (even academic ones) are projecting stuff onto the show that's not there, making it larger than life. I remember I was really mad when the book Fear and Loathing in Sunnydale ended with an essay that pretty much said fans were just making it all up, that most stuff academics find in there just isn't there... what a way to end a Buffy book!
 
It took me a while to realize that while I had loved the early Buffy seasons and characters, so much that Angel felt weird and foreign, by the time the show ended I no longer cared about it. Angel, on the other hand, grew on me tons, though I love it from the start. I also think that it's less dated and aged better. I find Buffy overrated and I don't actually believe the writers were intelligent/dedicated enough (not an insult) to intentionally come up with all the meanings/parallels/obscure references that the fans read in the show.
Most of the depth I know the show has came from reading articles and stuff. And that's interesting and a lot of it is actually there, but some of it is really accidental or not there at all.
 
It took me a while to realize that while I had loved the early Buffy seasons and characters, so much that Angel felt weird and foreign, by the time the show ended I no longer cared about it. Angel, on the other hand, grew on me tons, though I love it from the start. I also think that it's less dated and aged better. I find Buffy overrated and I don't actually believe the writers were intelligent/dedicated enough (not an insult) to intentionally come up with all the meanings/parallels/obscure references that the fans read in the show.
Most of the depth I know the show has came from reading articles and stuff. And that's interesting and a lot of it is actually there, but some of it is really accidental or not there at all.


But again its that thing of a piece of art once its out there in the world is for the consumer to judge what its saying to them. And I don't know how you would go about proving than something is accidental.
 
How do the fandom's preferences change with time? Considering what I've seen on the internet, I find it hard to believe that Angel and Buffy were ever tied as the best show.

As someone who watched the show as it aired, I found that when Angel started it was very well liked and as popular as Buffy but had quite a high drop-off, whereas Buffy was more consistent in popularity and ratings to the end. Angel really tested the casual viewer or the potential new viewer (although my dad ended up getting randomly sucked into season 2 when it was first shown lol, good season 😉). I don't think it was as instantly accessible as Buffy was, to someone who'd never seen it. Everyone knows the synopsis of Buffy before they've even seen it. There's not many people who don't know who she is.
Imagine jumping into an episode of season 4 of Angel when the last time you watched it was season 2. You would not have a clue what was going. I hardly did and I watched it all! But that's what makes me love Angel so much. It dared to take chances, and you could argue it had more of an opportunity to do so considering its smaller status. There was less pressure to keep to a format, in that sense.
And when I say Angel tested the audience, I also mean with the contentious content of the plots. 😛 It almost feels like the writers are trying to troll the audience at times, or pushing them to see who will stay along for the ride.
 
Oh, the good old days 😛

How do the fandom's preferences change with time? Considering what I've seen on the internet, I find it hard to believe that Angel and Buffy were ever tied as the best show.

I wasn't around then, but I'm guessing that Angel was tied with Buffy during its first season, because the initiative plotline was unpopular. After that, though...

Well, it makes sense that 'Buffy' would be more lasting - it had more star-power (SMG and Alyson Hannigan are more famous than anyone on AtS), and it was the parent show (spin-offs in general have a bad reputation), and 'Buffy' is just a much more striking name than 'Angel', etc...

Plus, Buffy is just plain better 😛
 
For me, Buffy is nostalgia. It reminds me of my teen years (with all the vampire slaying I did back then 😛) and it inspired me and my views. It was a feminist show that wasn't afraid to also be feminine.

Angel just doesn't have that nostalgia for me, although their theme song is better. I like Nerf Herder, but that Angel music is superb and totally befitting for the show it serves. It's still a great piece of music today. 🙂
 
But the show portrays Buffy as being wrong about that. She wants to be "feminine", at the expense of her own identity, and that almost costs her her life. And in the end Angel tells her that he doesn't even want that from her.

Meanwhile, Willow in that episode is a woman who's afraid of showing femininity (she's reluctant to wear a "slutty" costume, so she puts a ghost costume over it), and in the end she's not afraid of it anymore (she wears the "slutty" costume without shame).

So, it shows two opposing stereotypes about women, and it BREAKS both stereotypes, and it points out how these things are all just costumes, and not part of our true identity. It's actually one of the more subversive episodes, in terms of feminism, IMO.

I disagree.

Buffy's atitudes don't change after this episode. And I don't need Angel giving Buffy the stamp of approval.

As for Willow...where to start? First of all, what's wrong with the ghost costume? Secondly, who is Buffy to tell Willow what she should or shouldn't wear? Thirdly, has Willow ever expressed a desire to wear more 'revealing' clothing? Fourthly, did Willow express any desire in wearing the outfit Buffy wanted for her? Fifthly (what a weird word), is that kind of clothing Willow's style? Just because you don't wear sexy clothing during Halloween, doesn't mean that you don't have self confidence. In fact, even someone with great self esteem would be uncomfortable wearing something they didn't like. Also, Buffy says more than once that Willow should be sexy. Women shouldn't be anything or wear anything to please man. The fact that Willow was sticking to her guns and wearing what she wanted made her better than Buffy.

You know what I got from that episode? A girl who was told to wear an outfit, because it's what she should do. A woman who, overnight, developed body issues (Willow wore tight clothing and shorter skirts all the time without problems), a girl whose friend was forcing her into her idea of what a woman should look like.

If after the spell, Willow had looked at the ghost costume and realized that it was okay not to be Buffy or Cordelia, that would have been self-confidence and that would have been unexpected. Willow deciding not to put on the lame ghost costume (I mean, would Willow ever wear that? Her Eskimo outfit was creative and complex, but for Halloween a sheet with two holes is the best she can do? Please. Remember her outfits in the other Halloween episodes?) was predictable and a disappointment.

I hate the Halloween episode. I only like the parts during the spell, especially to see Buffy helpless and stupid. And, no, the lesson she learned in the end doesn't make up for the absurdity of the beginning of the episode. Buffy cancels her date because she had a hair out of place? Ugh. Spare me. That episode is cringe-worthy.

@Mr Trick

I'm not saying that Buffy isn't a feminist show. Feminism is a philosophical field and I don't know anything about that. What I do know is that the most important aspect of Buffy as a feminist show is whether or not you believe it to be feminist. Does it empower you? Does it satisfy you in that way? Do you feel like it represents you? Breaks gender norms? For a lot of people the answer is yes, and that's great. The answer, to me, is no. I don't find it empowering for the most part, or particularly feminist. I wouldn't use feminism as an argument in favor of the show, because, to me, that argument doesn't work. For example, Last Week Tonight (with John Oliver) is feminist. And that's one of the reasons why I love John Oliver and I would use that as an argument in favor of the show. I'm a feminist and I love feminist shows. It's important for me to say this, because it feels so blasphemous to say that I don't find BtVS feminist, considering the amount of well-informed feminists (unlike me) who have written articles on the subject.
 
It's interesting, because these days I prefer Angel while most seem to prefer Buffy... but back when the shows were airing, most people I knew preferred Angel (in fact many only watched Angel), but I preferred Buffy.

I don't know if it maybe had to do with Angel being considered a more "adult show" and perhaps the kiddy/tween stigma that Buffy had has been challenged more now that Joss is better known.

Either way, it's like making me choose between chocolate and fudge. I'd much rather have a selection of both.
 
As for Willow...where to start? First of all, what's wrong with the ghost costume? Secondly, who is Buffy to tell Willow what she should or shouldn't wear? Thirdly, has Willow ever expressed a desire to wear more 'revealing' clothing? Fourthly, did Willow express any desire in wearing the outfit Buffy wanted for her? Fifthly (what a weird word), is that kind of clothing Willow's style? Just because you don't wear sexy clothing during Halloween, doesn't mean that you don't have self confidence. In fact, even someone with great self esteem would be uncomfortable wearing something they didn't like. Also, Buffy says more than once that Willow should be sexy. Women shouldn't be anything or wear anything to please man. The fact that Willow was sticking to her guns and wearing what she wanted made her better than Buffy.

You know what I got from that episode? A girl who was told to wear an outfit, because it's what she should do. A woman who, overnight, developed body issues (Willow wore tight clothing and shorter skirts all the time without problems), a girl whose friend was forcing her into her idea of what a woman should look like.

I agree with all of this. Buffy pressured Willow into wearing an outfit that Willow wasn't comfortable with but Buffy wanted her to wear. If Buffy had been a man, her wanting Willow to wear the slutty outfit would've certainly been more eyebrow raising. If Willow had chosen to wear that out of her own free will, it would be different but Buffy kind of forced her to bow to peer pressure. Also, Willow was raised Jewish. Whilst that shouldn't dictate what she can and can't wear, it stands to reason that her fashion sense may be more conservative than the non-religious Buffy.


I hate the Halloween episode. I only like the parts during the spell, especially to see Buffy helpless and stupid.

Is it wrong that I kind of root for Spike in that episode? If only he'd been a bit quicker to bite her. 😛
 
I prefer Buffy because it's fun to watch. I make no commentary on which is the better show, or quality or whatever. I just don't enjoy watching Angel.

I never found Buffy to be, in any way, a feminist show. People say "yeah, but at the time..." I was alive and an adult at the time, and it still never struck me as a feminist show. But it's entertaining!
 
Buffy. I love Buffy, and I really like Angel. For me Buffy just has stronger storylines that appeal to me more. Angel never really seems to find it feet. Each season is very different, sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Both shows have characters that I love, Angel is just more dark, and I enjoy the lighter tone of Buffy more.
 
I disagree.

Buffy's atitudes don't change after this episode. And I don't need Angel giving Buffy the stamp of approval.

As for Willow...where to start? First of all, what's wrong with the ghost costume? Secondly, who is Buffy to tell Willow what she should or shouldn't wear? Thirdly, has Willow ever expressed a desire to wear more 'revealing' clothing? Fourthly, did Willow express any desire in wearing the outfit Buffy wanted for her? Fifthly (what a weird word), is that kind of clothing Willow's style? Just because you don't wear sexy clothing during Halloween, doesn't mean that you don't have self confidence. In fact, even someone with great self esteem would be uncomfortable wearing something they didn't like. Also, Buffy says more than once that Willow should be sexy. Women shouldn't be anything or wear anything to please man. The fact that Willow was sticking to her guns and wearing what she wanted made her better than Buffy.

You know what I got from that episode? A girl who was told to wear an outfit, because it's what she should do. A woman who, overnight, developed body issues (Willow wore tight clothing and shorter skirts all the time without problems), a girl whose friend was forcing her into her idea of what a woman should look like.

If after the spell, Willow had looked at the ghost costume and realized that it was okay not to be Buffy or Cordelia, that would have been self-confidence and that would have been unexpected. Willow deciding not to put on the lame ghost costume (I mean, would Willow ever wear that? Her Eskimo outfit was creative and complex, but for Halloween a sheet with two holes is the best she can do? Please. Remember her outfits in the other Halloween episodes?) was predictable and a disappointment.

Yeah... We really see it differently.

Did you watch PoTN's review of the episode?


I hate the Halloween episode. I only like the parts during the spell, especially to see Buffy helpless and stupid.

xp9f9j.gif


OK, I gotta ask - if you barely even like Buffy, why do you love Bangel so much? Why would you want your favorite character, Angel, to be with someone you like to see suffer?
 
xp9f9j.gif


OK, I gotta ask - if you barely even like Buffy, why do you love Bangel so much? Why would you want your favorite character, Angel, to be with someone you like to see suffer?

I've asked you before Guy, please remember to credit the creator of the gif's you use. Someone made that, it should be acknowledged.

I would also like to pre-emptively stress to keep a nice tone in here, no one has to justify why they like what they like, liking something shouldn't have to be questioned just because you two disagree on what you like/enjoy about the shows. Keep the conversation going please, but let's just remember to treat each other with respect.

🙂
 
Last edited:
Guy
Guy
I'm sorry, it won't happen again.
  • Like
Reactions: Guy
Back
Top Bottom