Which is the better show?

Which show do you prefer?

  • Angel

    Votes: 13 28.3%

  • Buffy

    Votes: 30 65.2%

  • I like them both equally

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • Total voters
    46
Guy said:
Did you watch PoTN's review of the episode?
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Ok, I watched all of his videos, but the guy is still just a fan. I enjoy what he has to say and think he's pretty great, but lately people have been quoting the guy's views like it's an argument from authority or something.
I don't remember that video in particular, but considering my views haven't changed, I'd say he didn't convince me.

Guy said:
OK, I gotta ask - if you barely even like Buffy, why do you love Bangel so much? Why would you want your favorite character, Angel, to be with someone you like to see suffer?
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I don't wanna see Buffy helpless and stupid the whole time lol. Just in that one episode (and in some others, when she irritates me). She really needed to learn what's like to be powerless and ignorant. She wanted to be like one of those 18th girls and Willow was like: I prefer to vote, and Buffy just didn't seem to get how the only good time for women, and people in general, is right now. I liked the irony of Buffy getting what she wanted and realizing how much better it is to be her. Plus, she annoyed me so much in that episode that I had fun seeing her be the damsel.

To answer your question, I like Buffy more than you assume I do and I like her when she's with Angel. I like their relationship, how it was written and how it evolved, the highs it reached, how Angel was often 'the damsel' but didn't care, how it influenced Angel, what it meant to him, his vulnerability in that relationship. I see Bangel pretty much from Angel's perspective, although I do see it from Buffy's too.

I love Buffy in S1 (she doesn't annoy me that at all season) and I love all of the cheesy and the serious Bangel scenes.
I think in S2 the times I could better understand Buffy were when she was with Angel (in When She Was Bad, WML, Ted, for example). I enjoyed her vulnerability and her youth in the relationship (Surprise, Becoming, for example), I loved how over-protective and badass she was with him (WMY for example), I enjoyed how they broke conventional gender roles (she walked him home in Some Assembly Required, saved his ass in WMY, tried to save him in Surprise) and I loved how understanding and accepting she was of him (in Some Assembly Required, Lie To Me, WMY, Becoming).
In S3, I enjoy Buffy in all of the Bangel scenes, except for a bit in Earshot and GD. S3 Buffy might actually be my favorite Buffy, though she peaked in Becoming for me. Love her in Amends.
In S4, she's great in IWRY (I understand her attitude), irritating in Sanctuary, but she's great in The Yoko Factor which makes up for her the thing with Faith.
In S5, she's perfect with Angel in Forever.
In S7, she's good in Chosen. I don't like the dialogue a lot, but it's mostly not because of Buffy.

There, a rundown of Buffy in Bangel. I like Buffy less with time, but I'm also fond of her and enjoy her best in the seasons when Buffy and Angel are still together. I think Bangel brings out the best in Buffy and, occasionally, the worse.

Taake said:
I would also like to pre-emptively stress to keep a nice tone in here, when did Carrie say that she liked to see Buffy suffer? Maybe I missed it, otherwise, let's not put words in people's mouths. Also no one has to justify why they like what they like, liking something shouldn't have to be questioned just because you two disagree on what you like/enjoy about the shows. Keep the conversation going please, but let's just remember to treat each other with respect.

🙂
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I didn't mind 🙂.
 
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Carrie Hopewell said:
Ok, I watched all of his videos, but the guy is still just a fan. I enjoy what he has to say and think he's pretty great, but lately people have been quoting the guy's views like it's an argument from authority or something.
I don't remember that video in particular, but considering my views haven't changed, I'd say he didn't convince me.
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Of course, no one is an authority on art. I just brought it up because I think he explains what I love about the episode better than I ever could, but it's all subjective, of course.

And thanks for the explanation about Buffy 🙂
 
I vastly prefer Buffy. I only watched Angel so that I could get Buffy background. I hated the first part of S1 of Angel and almost gave up watching it although once Gunn and Wesley arrived the show improved. I do like S5 of Angel quite a bit but only because I love watching Angel and Spike together and by that time they had gotten rid of Jasmine who I hated and Cordelia who I didn't like. I did like Cordelia's final episode in S5 but hated Groot and hated her relationship with Connor. I never really felt the Cangel vibe, I didn't object to it I just don't think the actors really pulled it off. I also liked the theme of taking out the circle of the black thorn and thought the finale was great.
 
Carrie Hopewell said:
I get that. But I was only aware of that after watching the show and all those things that you mentioned are just common place to me. I was never surprised by any of that. I know the show is culturally relevant and progressive for its time, but that's not enough to make it the better show. As far as feminism goes, it's a bit outdated. I admire the show for that, but it doesn't make me enjoy it more.

There are still all the times the show casually throws around the words: hooker, whore, slut, bitch, ho; Buffy in Halloween definitely perpetuating dumb stereotypes (" Dates are things normal girls have. Girls who have time to think about nail polish and facials and stuff.", and her dressing like a woman from the 18th century to please Angel"), how the girls are all feminine or girly and, in a way, portray one idea of femininity.
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But I think you have to take into account the context and era of a show. You can't just dismiss it just because you didn't view it at the time or because you are not sexist yourself. And I can't think of many shows even now who do for female characters what Buffy did. You might say that we've gone backwards in someways.

But again as Guy pointed out your seem to be assuming that the show is supporting Buffy in those views. The show is all about growing up and at this stage of show Buffy is still at an early stage in that. Angel himself at the end of episode makes it clear to Buffy than she was being silly for feeling the way she does. But again Buffy learns from this and in later seasons doesn't have such issues.
 
I agree completely with a prevailing minority opinion online that while Angel had more better than average episodes and less failures, Buffy took more risks and created FAR more masterpieces and all-time great television episodes than Angel, and while Buffy has far more truly forgetable episodes, it is still by far the greater show. It explored more terrain in artistic terms than Angel ever did. By comparison, Angel was the infinitely more safe show...even though strictly by the numbers it created more merely entertaining shows. Btvs took risks unlike many shows before or after, and is universally recognized as a groundbreaking show on those levels, by fans and critics alike. This is uncontestible. I love Angel, but I don't see how this is in any way an arguement: Buffy is the ground breaking show that people will talk about 20 plus years from now, a significant marker in the history of artistic television...and Angel will and must fade into obscurity as merely an entertaining show by comparison surely....albeit also admirably consistent.
 
AnthonyCordova said:
I agree completely with a prevailing minority opinion online that while Angel had more better than average episodes and less failures, Buffy took more risks and created FAR more masterpieces and all-time great television episodes than Angel, and while Buffy has far more truly forgetable episodes, it is still by far the greater show. It explored more terrain in artistic terms than Angel ever did. By comparison, Angel was the infinitely more safe show...even though strictly by the numbers it created more merely entertaining shows. Btvs took risks unlike many shows before or after, and is universally recognized as a groundbreaking show on those levels, by fans and critics alike. This is uncontestible. I love Angel, but I don't see how this is in any way an arguement: Buffy is the ground breaking show that people will talk about 20 plus years from now, a significant marker in the history of artistic television...and Angel will and must fade into obscurity as merely an entertaining show by comparison surely....albeit also admirably consistent.
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Think I agree with just about everything except this. Even the flawed Buffy episodes standout for one or two things. One point of contrast I think is that Angel has less stand alone episodes. I think the majority of them are building someway towards the big arc. I'm not saying this as a knock on Angel, but because of that I think the episodes blend into one another more.
 
For me, Angel will always be the better and more entertaining and endearing show. I initially loved BtVS far more, but as I became more and more disenchanted with the later seasons (most of which had to do with a certain ship and it’s detrimental effect to both the protagonist of the show and the show itself) I started to realise how much stronger AtS is as a series.

BtVS was a great show, especially for the time it was created in. It gave us a fresh, very different kind of heroine, a great premise and an interesting and subversive take on many typical horror cliches. The demon-of-the-week storylines were entertaining, and the world building which began in Season 2 with the arrival of Spike and Dru and Angel losing his soul, definitely helped the show grow the beard. Season 4 faltered somewhat, but made up with a superb fifth season. Seasons 6 and 7, however, are a complete mess, between the vile Spuffy relationship and Spike sucking up valuable screen time, to the breakdown of the Scoobies, to the killing off of a beloved gay character, the show just imploded upon itself.

I also always felt that BtVS didn’t ever have a clear vision or mission statement. Buffy was the Slayer, and the show initially followed her personal journey, but with the addition of more and more characters, and especially the focus on Spike in the later seasons, Buffy’s journey seemed to cap out at Season 5 (yet another reason why I believe the show should have ended with The Gift).

AtS, on the other hand, established its mission statement/theme during City Of, and continued with the theme for the entirety of the series. The series revisited the mission statement almost every season, reaffirming that “if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.” While the storytelling did sometimes fall short (AtS has a definite issues with season finales, I’d definitely give BtVS the edge when it came to tying up seasons), I’ve always felt that the writing and storytelling on AtS was stronger than on BtVS.

I also feel that AtS has BtVS beat hands-down when it came to character development. Aside from Spike (and possibly Xander) no character on BtVS was given a consistent or particularly well-developed character arc, not even Buffy herself. Character development was either under-developed (Tara, Anya, Dawn), confused and without proper direction (Willow) or forgotten in favour of other characters (Buffy). AtS, on the other hand, had mostly coherent and detailed development for all its’ characters, from Cordy’s spectacular arc (which, admittedly, does get a little confused by the end of Season 3) to Wesley’s spiral into darkness, to Gunn’s journey of self-discovery, all the characters on AtS receive well-written arcs and development.

Then there’s the fact that I simply love more of the characters on AtS than I do on BtVS. If you were to ask me my fave BtVS characters, I could really only list about three, but over on AtS, I love practically every single character or, at the very least, aspects of them.

I also find the standalone episodes on AtS more engaging and entertaining than on BtVS. Season 1 in particular has some of the most amazing standalone episodes, with great commentary built into them, and exploring darker and more grey themes than BtVS. Which brings me to my final point, which is that I feel that AtS is a more adult and grey show than BtVS, which I really enjoy.

BtVS is very much a black-and-white show. You’re good or evil, souled or not souled, human or demon. While there are some shades of grey in BtVS, for the most part, the show is very much good vs evil. AtS, on the other hand, delved so far into the shades of grey, it’s practically noir. Demons can show compassion, the “good guys” are not always good, the bad guys are shown to love and have empathy, and even the protagonist himself is portrayed in shades of grey. For me, this makes for much more interesting and complex storytelling, characterisation and arc building, and definitely adds to the overall appeal of AtS as a show.
 
Angel had much stronger writing and the comedy bits were perfect. Definitely the better show...though I'm fond of Buffy, the writing could be irksome.
(Kevin Smith AND Joss had teens speaking in a way that wasn't quite believable)
 
I honestly cannot tell which is the better show. BtVS is my favorite but favorite doesn't equal better. And since my preference is rooted in nostalgia and the show having the most memorable episodes, I won't try to add objectivity in the mix.

I think AtS's mission statement speaks to me more and I prefer discussing and analyzing that show to BtVS probably because the last 2 seasons of BtVS tend to upset me and I usually focus a lot on the endings.

For me it would probably go like this :
1. BtVS seasons 1 to 5
2. AtS
3. BtVS seasons 6-7

In the end, what one show lacks the other one has, at least for me.
 
My own preference is Buffy, by a long shot. Mainly for the humour and overall character growth and themes. I'm not a film critic just a fan so I usually rely on IMDB ratings. Buffy is 8.2 and Angel is 8.0 so my own opinion is Buffy is better based on that rating system.
 
During the time both shows were on, the watercooler talk at the office was that quite often, the Angel episode for the week was better than the Buffy episode. True but overall, I like Buffy better. I don't think there is any part of the film noir private investigator motif that hasn't been done to death before. Also it appeared that Buffy was held to relatively normal plots whereas Angel could afford to go a bit further from reality than Buffy, such as the Pylea arc. Also, SMG with her awesome emotive ability was a true star whereas David Boreanaz got a bit more natural as he went along but was still a limited actor playing a limited part. One thing that Angel did introduce was the concept of a satanic legal firm with multidimensional reach and leadership that is above being seen. I voted for Buffy.
 
I think both shows are great for different reasons. However, when it comes down to it Buffy wins it for me. See, overall I like all of the Angel characters not all of the btvs characters but, I think it comes down to the fact that I can relate Buffy. She is such a wonderful character that is more complex than she is given credit for. She was just a kid that literally had the weight of the world put on her shoulders out of the blue. She had to grow up really fast and forget about normalcy (which is something she really longed for). She also had to deal with falling in love with a vampire (the thing she was supposed to hate and kill), but it wasn't that simple. She went from being a selfish, shallow, popular girl to being selfless, giving, powerful, forgiving and so much more just to die. Then she went into a depression and felt like she didn't belong in this world anymore. We see her battle that and come out on top and eventually defeat the first evil. I actually think she had a great character arc.
It's just that all of Angel's characters had an arc, while not all of Buffy's did. But a lot of Buffy's characters were still growing up so I think that it is okay.
As for storytelling, I think Buffy's s2, s3, and s5 did a really great job with that, but they didn't flow into each other, they were separate storylines. I also think Angel s2 (besides Pylea, what in the literal **** was that?) s3, and s4 did a great job of that. These 3 seasons all flowed together really well. But s1 was very episodic and s5 just totally lost me, I think it should have ended with s4 with a better season finale of course. Buffy's highs were better than Angel's highs, but Buffy's lows were also lower than Angel's lows. I mean both shows had their strengths and weaknesses. It all just comes down to what you identify with.
 
Both shows are very good, but I have to give points to "BUFFY". It's not because the characters on that show had developed more. In fact, the semi-lack of development of the "ANGEL" characters were not a problem. Sometimes, people simply do not develop and I thought "ANGEL" did a good job in showing how characters can sometimes remain stagnant or regress. I just wasn't that impressed with the last season-and-a-half of "ANGEL" in regard to writing.
 
Puffy said:
Hmm...what could be possible lower then the whole Jasmine storyline and especially Conner boinking Cordi 😱😳🙄
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Okay, It probably doesn't get lower than the whole Cordy and Connor sex thing, yuck, makes me wanna barf just thinking about it lol. But, I don't love the Jasmine storyline but I also don't hate it like I know a lot of fans do. I guess the entirety of s4 of BtVS was just such a snooze fest and then s7 really let me down as a final season with the potentials and everyone turning on Buffy. Maybe Buffy just had more lows than Angel, but Angel had the biggest low with the Cordy/Connor thing- but I try to let that go since it wasn't actually Cordy.
 
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