Which show do you like more?

[Skanky Vamp]

For me this saves many of those episodes from just being filler.

That's my point. And I think that is where we ultimately disagree. From the previous thread I said I thought Buffy would have told a better story had it been a short 10-12 episode season. So my answers reflect that. You thought the full 22 episode seasons were better and your answers reflect that.

 

[Nix]

I have to say I felt Angel was the darker show, more mature. Maybe because it dealt with adults not school kids, maybe not. I preferred the characters progressions from Buffy in Angel, such as; Faith, Cordy, Wesley, Spike, and of course Angel himself. I also totally fell for Doyle's character and was unbelievably gutted in Hero. I adored season one of Angel so much so that almost every episode there were tears and my heart went out to the characters and their development and story-lines. Don't get me wrong, I adore BTVS. But for me it's Angel. I don't know if its because I was (am) an adult when BTVS & Angel aired so watched it as an adult or not. I don't know the core analysis behind why I find I can relate more to Angel the series and enjoyed it more, I just did (and do). I don't think I can compare the 2 shows season by season as we already knew most of the characters in Angel from Buffy. SO don't ask me to do that either. My heart was beating fast for more episodes of Angel than it did Buffy. Besides as a Bangel shipper it had IWRY. As a Faith fan there was 5by5 and Sanctuary. As a Doyle fan there was Hero. As a Cordy fan there was City of..., Room with a view, Parting Gifts, That Vision Thing, etc etc... I could go on for ages (well 5 seasons anyway lol). It's just all my opinion, my view, my perspective.

Note; I'm not a comic reader or a fan of the comics, so I only go by the tv shows.

 

[The Bronze]

Aside from Angel being mostly set at night and the humour being better on BTVS I don't really see how Angel is a darker show.

Buffy is a show where the lead character is killed at the end of the first season. The power and strength that she is celebrated for comes from a demon. It's origin is in the violation of the first slayer. The lead character was depressed for a whole season, longer depending on your view. She's the subject of physical, sexual and mental assaults throughout the show. She has also been institutionalised for speaking the truth. Her father figure also drugged her and left her in unbelievable danger.

We have a main character being mutilated by Caleb. Another main character being tortured by Angel and Drusilla. You have popular secondary character Jenny Calendar having her neck snapped and another popular character Tara being shot and bleeding to death on her girlfriend.

You have Willow's storyline of often needing to use magic to save the world but it ultimately leading to her addiction and murderous rage. You have Dawn a teenage girl slashing her arms. There are episodes like Nightmares and Where The Wild Things are featuring child abuse.

I'm sure there's much more dark material covered over the run of the show but my point is that I don't see anything on Angel that marks it out as being so much darker than Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

Perhaps Angel just handles it's darker themes in a subtler, more skilled way perhaps? That the writers tackling those subjects did so in a more grown-up way?
That might be what people mean when they say Angel was a 'darker' or 'mature' show than Buffy.

 

[Mr Trick]

Aside from Angel being mostly set at night and the humour being better on BTVS I don't really see how Angel is a darker show.

Buffy is a show where the lead character is killed at the end of the first season. The power and strength that she is celebrated for comes from a demon. It's origin is in the violation of the first slayer. The lead character was depressed for a whole season, longer depending on your view. She's the subject of physical, sexual and mental assaults throughout the show. She has also been institutionalised for speaking the truth. Her father figure also drugged her and left her in unbelievable danger.

We have a main character being mutilated by Caleb. Another main character being tortured by Angel and Drusilla. You have popular secondary character Jenny Calendar having her neck snapped and another popular character Tara being shot and bleeding to death on her girlfriend.

You have Willow's storyline of often needing to use magic to save the world but it ultimately leading to her addiction and murderous rage. You have Dawn a teenage girl slashing her arms. There are episodes like Nightmares and Where The Wild Things are featuring child abuse.

I'm sure there's much more dark material covered over the run of the show but my point is that I don't see anything on Angel that marks it out as being so much darker than Buffy.

You've really nailed it with this post. I forgot about that Dawn arm slashing. And if you think that Buffy deals with more everyday issues than Angel (which I think it does on balance) then to me that makes the bad things happen to the characters more shocking. 

Perhaps Angel just handles it's darker themes in a subtler, more skilled way perhaps? That the writers tackling those subjects did so in a more grown-up way?
That might be what people mean when they say Angel was a 'darker' or 'mature' show than Buffy.

Its two things I think.

One that for the most part Angel is just a darker more disturbed character than Buffy (although the show do use at times for the purpose comedy).

And the other main reason is that the overall look of show is darker, and that the fight scenes often are more violent (not always of course).

But the more I think about it and read through this thread the more I think Buffy is just as dark just in a different way.

 

[VisionBoy]

To me, setting wise, it's a bit like comparing Smallville and Gotham. One is a sunny little town with dangers underneath the pretty, idyllic surface (Sunnydale). The other is a much bigger, darker city, where the evils are far more blatant (and not just supernatural), and the tone is far grittier because of it (LA).

 

[Aqua]

I have to say I felt Angel was the darker show, more mature. Maybe because it dealt with adults not school kids, maybe not. I preferred the characters progressions from Buffy in Angel, such as; Faith, Cordy, Wesley, Spike, and of course Angel himself. I also totally fell for Doyle's character and was unbelievably gutted in Hero. I adored season one of Angel so much so that almost every episode there were tears and my heart went out to the characters and their development and story-lines. Don't get me wrong, I adore BTVS. But for me it's Angel. I don't know if its because I was (am) an adult when BTVS & Angel aired so watched it as an adult or not. I don't know the core analysis behind why I find I can relate more to Angel the series and enjoyed it more, I just did (and do). I don't think I can compare the 2 shows season by season as we already knew most of the characters in Angel from Buffy. SO don't ask me to do that either. My heart was beating fast for more episodes of Angel than it did Buffy. Besides as a Bangel shipper it had IWRY. As a Faith fan there was 5by5 and Sanctuary. As a Doyle fan there was Hero. As a Cordy fan there was City of..., Room with a view, Parting Gifts, That Vision Thing, etc etc... I could go on for ages (well 5 seasons anyway lol). It's just all my opinion, my view, my perspective.

Note; I'm not a comic reader or a fan of the comics, so I only go by the tv shows.

Even though I would ultimately say Buffy, this is right on. I often found Angel more enthralling/engrossing than Buffy in its plot... Although for me it's partly because the 3rd and 4th seasons which I thought were very powerful and some of Joss's best.

Buffy just has this memorable element, which makes it always no.1 for me. The writing, characters, balance between light/dark, comedic/tragic was also very well done and meaningful. Buffy had the metaphor for high school being hell, and Angel represented the darkness of young adulthood. I tend to rewatch Buffy more often, and I think that it's more suited to re-watching individual eps, whereas Angel is more rewarding when watched in order. Although, in terms of best season of either series; Angel season 4 by far. 😀

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Perhaps Angel just handles it's darker themes in a subtler, more skilled way perhaps? That the writers tackling those subjects did so in a more grown-up way?
That might be what people mean when they say Angel was a 'darker' or 'mature' show than Buffy.

I think you hit the nail on the head. In the early seasons, BtVS handled some very dark subject matter incredibly well. Joyce's illness and the fallout from her death were also excellent. But some storylines, like the Buffy/Spike affair, Willow's addiction, and Xander and Anya's relationship troubles were all handled in an almost trashy soap opera manner. At those points, it seemed like the show was trying to be mature and dark and failing, like a teenager putting on a pretense without really understanding what being an adult means. The show didn't seem to want to commit to the dark themes either, as all characters were easily forgiven for their transgressions and faced no punishment, while also becoming more self involved and nasty.

It's no wonder that some fans prefer the more innocent early years when the show wasn't trying so hard.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think you hit the nail on the head. In the early seasons, BtVS handled some very dark subject matter incredibly well. Joyce's illness and the fallout from her death were also excellent. But some storylines, like the Buffy/Spike affair, Willow's addiction, and Xander and Anya's relationship troubles were all handled in an almost trashy soap opera manner. At those points, it seemed like the show was trying to be mature and dark and failing, like a teenager putting on a pretense without really understanding what being an adult means. The show didn't seem to want to commit to the dark themes either, as all characters were easily forgiven for their transgressions and faced no punishment, while also becoming more self involved and nasty.

It's no wonder that some fans prefer the more innocent early years when the show wasn't trying so hard.

It seemed like a soap opera in later seasons because when you are dealing with more personal aspects of the characters lives on a 42 minute weekly format then it is hard not too. In the early seasons they didn't deal so much with the everyday adult storylines I don't think.

Also, I don't see how the Buffy-Spike relationship is any more of a soap opera than the Buffy-Angel one?

 

[Halfrek]

I've been watching Buffy ever since I was little so I will always lean towards it over Angel, but even if not for nostalgia reasons I still think Buffy is the superior out of the two. Buffy was originally a teen show hence the high school setting so it was always going to have a different feel to Angel that was aiming more for a slightly older age bracket. I find that I rewatch a hell of a lot more Buffy episodes than Angel, probably for the MOTW episodes which there are much more of than in Angel. Plus I love the humour in Buffy, they seemed to struggle getting the comical relief in Angel and I personally feel it has a lot to do with the characters. Gunn, Fred and Cordy just aren't as funny and Wesley lost a lot of his funny nerdy side very early on. About the only funny character I find is Lorne and we don't get nearly enough of him imo. They definitely benefitted from having Spike in season 5.

Angel is basically a darker show and I guess personally I prefer the softer themes/tone of Buffy or at least I find myself wanting to watch Buffy episodes more.

 

[EVIL UU]

Also, I don't see how the Buffy-Spike relationship is any more of a soap opera than the Buffy-Angel one?

Spike/Buffy in season 6 has enough plot for, like, 3 to 4 episodes max - it would have been a pretty decent arc, borderline great even had it been told in those, let's be generous here, 5 episodes. Sadly, it drags on for most of the season and that's the soap opera-ish way of doing things. To make things worse, it's Buffy's primary plot line, really. I mean, what does Buffy even do in season 6? Well, she has lame PG-13 sex and flips burgers.

With Buffy/Angel shit actually happens and the pairing never menages to overstay its welcome and become obnoxious, well, at least in season 2. Season 3 is a different story but thankfully other developments take the center stage so it's not such a big problem as it is in season 6.

 

[Mr Trick]

Spike/Buffy in season 6 has enough plot for, like, 3 to 4 episodes max - it would have been a pretty decent arc, borderline great even had it been told in those, let's be generous here, 5 episodes. Sadly, it drags on for most of the season and that's the soap opera-ish way of doing things. To make things worse, it's Buffy's primary plot line, really. I mean, what does Buffy even do in season 6? Well, she has lame PG-13 sex and flips burgers.

With Buffy/Angel shit actually happens and the pairing never menages to overstay its welcome and become obnoxious in season 2. Season 3 is another story but at least there's plenty of other interesting things that take the center of the stage so it's not a problem.

Think you have that backwards. The soap opera way would be to rush these stories and not to give them a full range of episodes it does with Spike-Buffy. I don't agree that the story only has enough value for 3 or 4 episodes for two reasons. One, because if these two characters who had hated each others guts in the past (and still do in a way) had had a thing, and it was over just like that, then most viewers would have thought "What was the point in that?" The other reason is that Spike is a cruical part of Buffy exploring her darkside and I like that the show pushed that to the extreme. It does make me think that because some people are anti-Spike on here (and no I'm not aiming that at you) then it clouds their judgement on what is a good or bad storyline.

I never said that Angel-Buffy was a bad soap operaish tale, just that if Spike-Buffy can be called so then the same applies here. Thing is Buffy-Angel certainly in the first season has that very genatic teenage market feel to it. Spike-Buffy is different to that.

 

[EVIL UU]

"What was the point in that?"

The point is Spike's redemption - Spike/Buffy in season 6 is not about Buffy. They kiss, the have sex, they have sex again, Buffy breaks it off, Spike tries to rape her - that's the entire plot. Five episodes - Spike can go to Africa and Buffy can start doing something actually dark, not this fan-service-happy-chick-lit-level garbage.

Thing is Buffy-Angel certainly in the first season has that very genatic teenage market feel to it.

Yeah, but Angel is only in what, half of the episodes and most of the time he's barely even there. Can't say the same about Spike.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I prefer Angel's show simply because it managed to stay more or less consistent over the whole run. I was the same age as the scoobies but there came a point when I just couldn't relate to them anymore. Because I was growing into adulthood and they didn't. But I could totally relate to the Angel Inc. Team. Also Angel managed to stay an ensemble show. The very reason I was in love with BtVS, back when the most important focus was the relationship between the core four. The addition of Dawn that split the show right down the middle, forever changing all the relationships and reducing everyone to romantic relationships and in the process assasinating everyone of the core four to make it happen. It stopped being a character driven show and became a plot driven one. Not saying character assasinations didn't happen on Angel as well but at least there they tried to give explanations for it (no matter how dumb some of those were).

However it should be said that nothing Angel did can beat BtVS Season 2-3, at least for me.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

It seemed like a soap opera in later seasons because when you are dealing with more personal aspects of the characters lives on a 42 minute weekly format then it is hard not too. In the early seasons they didn't deal so much with the everyday adult storylines I don't think.

Also, I don't see how the Buffy-Spike relationship is any more of a soap opera than the Buffy-Angel one?

The personal lives of characters can be dealt with without degenerating into soap opera territory. It's really due to BtVS taking on a "who's sleeping with who this week?" formula, especially in season 6. I mean, look at Spike and Anya sleeping together and Buffy and Xander finding out and flying into jealousy. Or Xander's big storyline being leaving somebody at the alter. I think either Gellar or Noxon described the season as "Party of Five, with demons," forgetting the fact that Party of Five seems awful and shouldn't be an inspiration for anything.

The B/A romance is kind of cutesy fluff in season 1, but it deconstructs a lot of tropes and cliches in season 2, while advancing both of their characters (especially Buffy) in interesting ways. They get a little soap opera at times in season 3, but (and I have to disagree with EVIL UU here) they never go too far, and they spun Angel off into his own series before they got there. Plus, the Buffy/Faith rivalry and the transition into adulthood with graduation are arguably more important plot lines. And the seeds were also planted for the Angel/Faith dynamic, so he had something to do too. In season 6, Buffy's entire arc revolves around having 50 Shades style sex and having melodramatic confrontations with her friends over stupid shit. A series about a young woman being humanity's champion against the legions of hell shouldn't have to fall back on "sex with the bad boy" storylines to keep things interesting.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I think either Gellar or Noxon described the season as "Party of Five, with demons," forgetting the fact that Party of Five seems awful and shouldn't be an inspiration for anything.

Oh hell no. Please don't lump SMG into the same category as fvcked up Marti Noxon. Party of 5 with monsters was totally her thing. Same way she said she can't write for normal people (hence Xander's decreased role), all men are beasts and assholes (and look at Spike, Giles and Xander in the UPN years). Oh and she also found it hilarious that people started hating on Buffy because she mistreated Spike so badly. That woman should have never been allowed to run this show and we shouldn't have been subjected to having to watch her life story told via the Buffy characters (even the rape attempt was based on her personal experience...with her being the rapist).

The rest of your post I'm on board with though...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

even the rape attempt was based on her personal experience...with her being the rapist

Link? I never heard this before.

 

[Mr Trick]

The personal lives of characters can be dealt with without degenerating into soap opera territory. It's really due to BtVS taking on a "who's sleeping with who this week?" formula, especially in season 6. I mean, look at Spike and Anya sleeping together and Buffy and Xander finding out and flying into jealousy. Or Xander's big storyline being leaving somebody at the alter. I think either Gellar or Noxon described the season as "Party of Five, with demons," forgetting the fact that Party of Five seems awful and shouldn't be an inspiration for anything.

The B/A romance is kind of cutesy fluff in season 1, but it deconstructs a lot of tropes and cliches in season 2, while advancing both of their characters (especially Buffy) in interesting ways. They get a little soap opera at times in season 3, but (and I have to disagree with EVIL UU here) they never go too far, and they spun Angel off into his own series before they got there. Plus, the Buffy/Faith rivalry and the transition into adulthood with graduation are arguably more important plot lines. And the seeds were also planted for the Angel/Faith dynamic, so he had something to do too. In season 6, Buffy's entire arc revolves around having 50 Shades style sex and having melodramatic confrontations with her friends over stupid shit. A series about a young woman being humanity's champion against the legions of hell shouldn't have to fall back on "sex with the bad boy" storylines to keep things interesting.

I can see your point about the direction of S6 on the whole, but to me most of that stuff worked quite well so it didn't bother me if it was Soapy. The part I strongly disagree with is the part highlighted. The "50 Shades sex" as you call it was all part of Buffy being animalistic when it comes to sex, it showed her passion, but also her disturbed she had become. What was clever about those scenes was how her and Spike were almost trying to hurt each other as much as pleasure each other. As for the melodrama? Well Buffy has always had elements of melodrama from the very begining and that is no bad thing. But also the reason she had those confrontations with her friends is because she had been at odds with them for just about the whole season, and had been drawn to the darkside by Spike. And if you think about it if Buffy might have been sensitive about them telling her how to live her life in the past, Buffy the grown up damn sure would be. 

The point is Spike's redemption - Spike/Buffy in season 6 is not about Buffy. They kiss, the have sex, they have sex again, Buffy breaks it off, Spike tries to rape her - that's the entire plot. Five episodes - Spike can go to Africa and Buffy can start doing something actually dark, not this fan-service-happy-chick-lit-level garbage.



Yeah, but Angel is only in what, half of the episodes and most of the time he's barely even there. Can't say the same about Spike.

Sorry but only just seen this post. You seem to be forgetting that the building blocks for Spike-Buffy relationship were first laid in mid-S5. You just described what actually happened in their physical relationship, but there is far more in how the characters interact and the change in their characters as a result of their relationship.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

I can see your point about the direction of S6 on the whole, but to me most of that stuff worked quite well so it didn't bother me if it was Soapy. The part I strongly disagree with is the part highlighted. The "50 Shades sex" as you call it was all part of Buffy being animalistic when it comes to sex, it showed her passion, but also her disturbed she had become. What was clever about those scenes was how her and Spike were almost trying to hurt each other as much as pleasure each other. As for the melodrama? Well Buffy has always had elements of melodrama from the very begining and that is no bad thing. But also the reason she had those confrontations with her friends is because she had been at odds with them for just about the whole season, and had been drawn to the darkside by Spike. And if you think about it if Buffy might have been sensitive about them telling her how to live her life in the past, Buffy the grown up damn sure would be. 


Sorry but only just seen this post. You seem to be forgetting that the building blocks for Spike-Buffy relationship were first laid in mid-S5. You just described what actually happened in their physical relationship, but there is far more in how the characters interact and the change in their characters as a result of their relationship.

I think they should have explored Buffy's dark side in other ways than resorting to rough, dirty sex. I'm not interested in Buffy's sex life. I'd be happy for her if she was having some healthy fling with a guy, but otherwise, the basic premise of the series doesn't hinge on who she's banging. She battles demons and the undead, surly they could have come up with other ways to portray how animalistic she could become if she gave into her Slayer instincts and/or her depression. Reducing her to a bodice ripping romance novel "heroine" is an insult to the show and tropes it was created to subvert.

Oh hell no. Please don't lump SMG into the same category as fvcked up Marti Noxon. Party of 5 with monsters was totally her thing. Same way she said she can't write for normal people (hence Xander's decreased role), all men are beasts and assholes (and look at Spike, Giles and Xander in the UPN years). Oh and she also found it hilarious that people started hating on Buffy because she mistreated Spike so badly. That woman should have never been allowed to run this show and we shouldn't have been subjected to having to watch her life story told via the Buffy characters (even the rape attempt was based on her personal experience...with her being the rapist).

The rest of your post I'm on board with though...

I thought it was Noxon who said the Party of Five quote, but I wasn't too sure. I thought I saw it attributed to Gellar somewhere on the internet, but I guess I was mistaken. Good, she seems way too smart to say something like that. And I've also heard about the rape storyline being inspired by one of the female writers, though they never named which one. I've always kind of assumed it was Noxon...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

They're both my favorite shows, but if I had to choose, I'd choose Buffy.