Which show do you like more?

[WillowTaraHolic]

Carpe Buffy. 🙂

 

[AnthonyCordova]

There was a time when I would have said Buffy, but the more I rewatch everything, the more I get the sense that I will outgrow BtVS someday. I think Angel will continue to be relevant as I mature and get older. And I already like Wes, Fred/Illyria/Angel/Lorne more than the Buffy characters, I really feel sad to say. I love Buffy to pieces, but the more I watch the more it strikes me as teen fare ultimately. I enjoy Buffy a lot, but that is the sense I get from it. Something to grow out of eventually. I wish there had been more Angel than 5 television seasons. And for me Angel's show got better as the seasons progressed. BtVS had a lot more charm though, and I think I will always love some BtVS seasons a hell of a lot, but I've let go of high school and college and my younger years and BtVS gets harder to relate to as a result (after the initial interest of mine when I first started watching).

 

[Mr Trick]

I think they should have explored Buffy's dark side in other ways than resorting to rough, dirty sex. I'm not interested in Buffy's sex life. I'd be happy for her if she was having some healthy fling with a guy, but otherwise, the basic premise of the series doesn't hinge on who she's banging. She battles demons and the undead, surly they could have come up with other ways to portray how animalistic she could become if she gave into her Slayer instincts and/or her depression. Reducing her to a bodice ripping romance novel "heroine" is an insult to the show and tropes it was created to subvert.



I thought it was Noxon who said the Party of Five quote, but I wasn't too sure. I thought I saw it attributed to Gellar somewhere on the internet, but I guess I was mistaken. Good, she seems way too smart to say something like that. And I've also heard about the rape storyline being inspired by one of the female writers, though they never named which one. I've always kind of assumed it was Noxon...

They did explore it in other ways, such as her wanting to know how the other Slayers were killed, and the fact that she wished that she had been lefted in the afterlife (can't get much darker than that), the fact that she is drawn to Spike in the first place. The sex side is just another layer to it. Lust is a very human emotion, do you want shows like Buffy to shy away from it? 

There was a time when I would have said Buffy, but the more I rewatch everything, the more I get the sense that I will outgrow BtVS someday. I think Angel will continue to be relevant as I mature and get older. And I already like Wes, Fred/Illyria/Angel/Lorne more than the Buffy characters, I really feel sad to say. I love Buffy to pieces, but the more I watch the more it strikes me as teen fare ultimately. I enjoy Buffy a lot, but that is the sense I get from it. Something to grow out of eventually. I wish there had been more Angel than 5 television seasons. And for me Angel's show got better as the seasons progressed. BtVS had a lot more charm though, and I think I will always love some BtVS seasons a hell of a lot, but I've let go of high school and college and my younger years and BtVS gets harder to relate to as a result (after the initial interest of mine when I first started watching).

I don't think this will happen. Buffy has broad appeal far beyond the teen elements. The monster/b-movie elements are more aimed at adults, as are the comedy elements and the human drama. Plus the character depth draws in a wider audience too. I'm in my 30s and like it. Two of my tutors who are in their late 30s/early 40s like it, and my Mum who recently turn 70 likes it. So the proof is in the pudding.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

And I know people in their 50's collecting batman and superman comics, and of course they would offer similar arguments, e.g. adult and mature themes, etc. Etc. I'm not knocking comic collectors or buffy fans; I love Buffy and there will always be fond memories attached to the show for me. And I personally think the body and restless are the two greatest episodes in television history. I'm judging things from my own growth line and trajectory when I say I'll outgrow it. You have to admit, a lot of Buffy has to do with growing up issues and being young and getting over younger people problems too (e.g. falling in love for the first time, high school etc.). Speaking for myself, I'm past all of that. There is charm and nostalgia a little bit when the show addresses those topics, but those issues haven't been relevant for me in a long time. And those issues either are not present in Angel at all or are given a more mature treatment (and the cast are adults). And besides, too much importance placed on relationships and stuff like that strike me as teenager-y. I don't care too much for shipping for similar reasons. I know about soap operas and stuff, but still. I don't know.

I do love Buffy though, and I like rewatching for now. I just think Angel will have longer appeal and relevance.

 

[Mr Trick]

And I know people in their 50's collecting batman and superman comics, and of course they would offer similar arguments, e.g. adult and mature themes, etc. Etc. I'm not knocking comic collectors or buffy fans; I love Buffy and there will always be fond memories attached to the show for me. And I personally think the body and restless are the two greatest episodes in television history. I'm judging things from my own growth line and trajectory when I say I'll outgrow it. You have to admit, a lot of Buffy has to do with growing up issues and being young and getting over younger people problems too (e.g. falling in love for the first time, high school etc.). Speaking for myself, I'm past all of that. There is charm and nostalgia a little bit when the show addresses those topics, but those issues haven't been relevant for me in a long time. And those issues either are not present in Angel at all or are given a more mature treatment (and the cast are adults). And besides, too much importance placed on relationships and stuff like that strike me as teenager-y. I don't care too much for shipping for similar reasons. I know about soap operas and stuff, but still. I don't know.

I do love Buffy though, and I like rewatching for now. I just think Angel will have longer appeal and relevance.

I know what your saying, but what about what I mentioned today with the horror elements, and the creatures? And as has been discussed some really disturbing things happen over the course of Buffy, in fact maybe more disturbing than on Angel. They do cut back on the romance in later seasons, and no I am not including Buffy-Spike because that was a darker more mature relationship. Besides why can't romance be as much for adults as teens? And the character depth of the show is partly what draws adults. I like Angel too. But right now it isn't even close for me. Buffy is one of the greatest shows ever, and Angel is just a very good show.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy is one of the greatest shows ever

I would not go that far.. I would maybe say for it's time is was a great show, but to say one of the greatest shows ever seems like a stretch in my opinion. The early episodes are really dated and the later seem overly dramatic.

With this being the 'golden era' of television now and you have shows like True Detective, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black, Fargo, Hannibal, Justified, Sherlock, Girls, The Killing, to name a few of the current. Not to mention older shows like The Wire, Battlestar Galactica, Deadwood. I just have a hard time calling Buffy a great show in comparison to those mentioned, let alone one of the greatest ever.

 

[NightLady]

Definitely Buffy for me.

I’m not a huge fan of the first 2-3 seasons mainly because Buffy and Angel romance is like a bad written fanfiction so except for the Angelus twist it ruins those seasons for me. But later seasons are great and more than make up for it. Some characters come out worst (Willow for example) but there are others, like Anya and Spike, that fill excellently the loss. I could say so much about BTVS but I think there is no need as we surely are all fans of the show. So the question is why I love Buffy more than ATS and the answer is more in ATS flaws than in BTVS merits. My opinion with ATS is that it’s a good show but it benefits of the BTVS fame and I don’t think I would have watched it in the first place if it were not a BTVS spin-off. I’m glad I did of course because I like it, I just don’t think it measures up to Buffy.


ATS has several huge flaws: the main character, the messages and the big picture. I like Angel as a character if I consider only the single scene or episode, but I strongly dislike him if I think of all his history - his actions on Buffy, his past before coming to Sunnydale - and all the huge missteps he makes during the five seasons of ATS. He is full of contradictions, he says one thing but does another and in spite of all the times he or other characters like to say that he is a hero, a champion and the one and only saving-the-helpless knight – which btw are so many that it seems the writers want to tell me what I have to feel instead of making me feel it - he just doesn’t come out like that to me. Not if I look at the big picture. Because in spite of the supposed redemption theme, it feels like he makes one step forward and two backward and at the end of the show he is exactly were he was at the beginning. From that point of view it’s static and dissatisfying. About the big picture, the show feels too much self-involved. Buffy is about the characters fighting evil while dealing with their lives and issues, ATS is the contrary and almost everything resolves about Angel dealing with his personal issues and trying to fulfil his purpose: becoming someone. And he does. He starts as a friendless loner who owns nothing and ends as the boss of a company with a lot of people to command, cars, money, power, and during the path he makes a lot of questionable choices.


I don’t like the messages it subtly delivers. It’s like saying that the ends justify the means and that no matter what bad things you do, everything it’s okay as long as you say that you are sorry. It’s okay even if you keep doing bad things. This message is just wrong to me. So I can enjoy ATS just like I do with other shows, like Dexter for example, but if I have to compare to Buffy... nope, it doesn’t hold a candle to it.

 

[Mr Trick]

I would not go that far.. I would maybe say for it's time is was a great show, but to say one of the greatest shows ever seems like a stretch in my opinion. The early episodes are really dated and the later seem overly dramatic.

With this being the 'golden era' of television now and you have shows like True Detective, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black, Fargo, Hannibal, Justified, Sherlock, Girls, The Killing, to name a few of the current. Not to mention older shows like The Wire, Battlestar Galactica, Deadwood. I just have a hard time calling Buffy a great show in comparison to those mentioned, let alone one of the greatest ever.

Jumping the gun a bit with some of those shows arn't you? Some would despute if some of them are great shows in the first place. But the point is lets wait and see in, 10, 15 years time if they stand up like Buffy still does now.

The reason early Buffy seems dated is because it was one of the last shows to be directed in the old school epsodic TV style (and because they almost had no money to spend on effects), but at the same time it found a nice bridge between that and also visually stylish and cutting edge.

Its becoming very fashionable to hail the modern TV era as the best ever and to knock shows like Buffy. Its because if something isn't gritty or shocking then people don't see the value of it being on TV. That is just poppy cock! (yeah I like that word🙂) Buffy manages to be cutting edge without needing to resort to that kind of stuff. But in terms of pushing narrative bounderies I can't think of many shows that do it as much as Buffy. Besides something being the best is down to individual tastes. I just love the style of Buffy, and pretty much everything about it. While I also like many of the shows you mentioned they just don't have the re-watch value of something like Buffy for me.

 

[The Bronze]

While I also like many of the shows you mentioned they just don't have the re-watch value of something like Buffy for me.

This is spot on for me. Obviously greatness is a matter of personal taste but Buffy surely deserves consideration. Even something like Game of Thrones where I'm desperate to see the next episode I can't imagine repeated re-watching like I do with Buffy.

I also don't think Buffy is dated in a bad way. It began in the 90's and had a low budget sure. So you've got era appropriate fashion and technology. After that though you just have the story and characters which I think hold up as well as ever. It's a slight adjustment for the viewer to get used to it looking a bit old and then you're drawn in. There are still kids getting into the show and I don't think they'd be able to if it was really dated.

 

[Mr Trick]

This is spot on for me. Obviously greatness is a matter of personal taste but Buffy surely deserves consideration. Even something like Game of Thrones where I'm desperate to see the next episode I can't imagine repeated re-watching like I do with Buffy.

I also don't think Buffy is dated in a bad way. It began in the 90's and had a low budget sure. So you've got era appropriate fashion and technology. After that though you just have the story and characters which I think hold up as well as ever. It's a slight adjustment for the viewer to get used to it looking a bit old and then you're drawn in. There are still kids getting into the show and I don't think they'd be able to if it was really dated.

It is more the look of it which is dated than anything else, but even that is only in the first couple of seasons. It doesn't matter to me anyway as long as the storytelling is strong. Stuff from the 80s looks even more dated now, yet I can still enjoy it. The creature effects of the show hold up really well except those from maybe the first two seasons, but that doesn't matter either because it fits into the trash/b-movie aesthetics.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

With this being the 'golden era' of television now and you have shows like True Detective, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black, Fargo, Hannibal, Justified, Sherlock, Girls, The Killing, to name a few of the current. Not to mention older shows like The Wire, Battlestar Galactica, Deadwood. I just have a hard time calling Buffy a great show in comparison to those mentioned, let alone one of the greatest ever.

I've seen five of those shows you mentioned and I only really like one of them. This 'golden age' of television is just not for me. But every one likes different things and for me Buffy is the best show ever and I could rewatch it all day long.

While I also like many of the shows you mentioned they just don't have the re-watch value of something like Buffy for me. But the point is lets wait and see in, 10, 15 years time if they stand up like Buffy still does now.

Yea not every show is rewatchable. Especially if I didn't want to sit through it the first time. I agree, let's see if they are still popular and remembered in 10 years.

I also don't think Buffy is dated in a bad way. It began in the 90's and had a low budget sure. So you've got era appropriate fashion and technology.

It's really the first season that is noticeably dated, and then any scene with a computer. I think the first thing that kids today would notice is the lack of cell phones. Other than that, I think it holds up well, and you just get invested in the characters so you don't even really care about it being dated.

 

[Mr Trick]

This might be a golden age of television, but then you could say that the real golden age was around the time Buffy started (not that I am being bias or anything) and carried on with the likes of Spronos and Six Feet Under.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

This might be a golden age of television, but then you could say that the real golden age was around the time Buffy started (not that I am being bias or anything) and carried on with the likes of Spronos and Six Feet Under.

Or you could say that it started with X-Files, Homicide, NYPD Blue and Babylon 5 and Buffy just rode the wave after they came along.

 

[Mr Trick]

Or you could say that it started with X-Files, Homicide, NYPD Blue and Babylon 5 and Buffy just rode the wave after they came along.

I was thinking that myself, trouble is I don't think there was enough great shows during the early 90s to really match up to the later part of the decade. I am on board with the X-Files, but the likes of NYPD Blue and Babylon 5 really don't appeal. I would say that it was maybe a better period for comdy with the likes of Seinfeld and Cheers at their peaks.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

peaks.

I forgot about Twin Peaks.. but the network screwed that show over so much. Have you not seen Homicide? It's probably unlikely you have, but that was an immensely underrated show. I would consider it a great show. It certainly is the best cop show.

 

[Mr Trick]

No, heard of Homicide, but don't know much about it so will look out for it. Getting a bit off topic, but Murder One was a really great show from the 90s. Such a ground breaking format for the time, brilliant cast mostly in the first season.

 

[Fuffy]

if we are talking about rewatchability, I'd pick BtVS.
However, when it comes to character development and portrayal of what life looks like, I'd pick ATS (Overall, I find that ATS portrays real life in a more realistic way than BtVS does).

 

[UndeadAmerican]

Viva la Buffy 🙂

While I love Ats, I'll never love it the way I love BtVS. Buffy has so much more rewatch-ability to me, and while I guess that's not everything, that's a really important aspect to me. You guys are right, Angel is less hopeful and more "adult" than Buffy, but that actually makes me like Buffy more. I get a warm, fuzzy, nostalgic feeling watching BtVS that I don't really get watching Angel. Buffy does a fantastic job of mixing the light with the dark, the comedy with the tragic, and the soapyness with action. It'll always be #1 for me.

I love the characters on Buffy just a little bit more and prefer the way it's set up (with the season arcs with a different bigbad each year) compared to Angel overall.

I'm currently doing an Angel rewatch and when I'm done, I probably won't touch it for quite some time, where as I could pop in an episode of Buffy anytime (despite just finishing a rewatch of that as well), that's the main deciding factor for me. It's all just personal preference though I think, Btvs being mine 🙂

 

[Mr Trick]

See I would still say that the character deveolpment is better on Buffy. Don't forget the likes of Angel and Cordy started life on Buffy so you have to consider where they came from on that show up to where they go on Angel.

Also the deveolpment of characters like Willow, Buffy and Spike are just as good.

 

[Taake]

Also the deveolpment of characters like Willow, Buffy and Spike are just as good.

Haha, reading that actually made me laugh out loud. I guess that means I don't agree.