Which show do you like more?

Which show do you like more?


  • Total voters
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Haha, reading that actually made me laugh out loud. I guess that means I don't agree.

You Sweds are strange!😉 Explain yourself?😀

Theres no way your telling me that Buffy is the same character in season one than she is in season 6 for example? And Willow has some of the best character development of anyone across the two shows.

Also the thing about Angel is that becoming the lead in his own show was a big reason why people now see the character as totally different than on Buffy which isn't quite the same as character development. And from S2 of Buffy onwards his character did start to change anyway.
 
You Sweds are strange!😉 Explain yourself?😀

Theres no way your telling me that Buffy is the same character in season one than she is in season 6 for example? And Willow has some of the best character development of anyone across the two shows.

Also the thing about Angel is that becoming the lead in his own show was a big reason why people now see the character as totally different than on Buffy which isn't quite the same as character development. And from S2 of Buffy onwards his character did start to change anyway.

Haha, of course Buffy isn't the same in season 6. She's gravely depressed in season 6. But depression rarely means character development, often it means regression, it is what comes after a depression that one should look to, the person coming out of all of that pain.

So let's look at Buffy season 7, has her character developed? Nope! Not in my opinion. To me she has the emotional maturity of a blue berry scone. In fact, she has the mentality of Season 3 Buffy. She's even making the same mistakes in a new setting... having a judged relationship/friendsship with the vampire du jour after a tragedy between the two. Losing trust in Giles and shutting him out (as in after Helpless) And bumbling about high school pretending like she knows what she's doing.

You could argue I suppose that as the season goes on and she has to become "General Buffy" she grows... but does she really? Does she not just isolate herself from her friends? Seek comfort in romance that one could consider doomed? And act like a petty 17 year old once Faith comes to town? Does she behave better/take better care of Dawn... meh... she's not depressed anymore but as a parent, Buffy is a failure, Dawn continues to be overlooked and neglected, it's just that she's older now (SHE has matured) so it's not as obvious.

Have we not already seen all of these exact things, and the exact same emotional range? So how exactly has Buffy developed as a character I wonder? I just see her making the same mistakes, not really learning from them, and ending the season by acting not more maturely or wisely but majorly out of character (with the empowerment bit). Buffy in season 7 has for me regressed back into being a teenager.

Let's move on to Willow.
Willow has a good arc of development between season 1-4, she's becoming a young woman, she's finding her sexuality and her talents and..... bam! Grinding halt during season 5-6, for these seasons Willow is exactly this; lesbian who does magic. That's her entire development. There's no internal development, only external. Willow shows clearly that she's an immature child throughout these seasons, who reacts according to her own pleasure principle and only exists in combination with a romantic partner.

E.g. distraught child Dawn, having just lost her mother, is placed in the care of Willow and Tara while Buffy deals with stuff. Said distraught child wants to magically make herself feel better. Tara explain this is not what magic is for/shouldn't be done. Immediate-satisfaction obsessed Willow however, if not literally, practically placed a book with presumably black magic - one that leads to it - into the hands of said child, without supervision, because she can't stand to see Dawn upset. She is well aware what these books contain, and regarldess if she thinks it's impossible for Dawn to reanimate the corpse of her mother, she should not be pleasing Dawn in this respect just to make herself feel better. But that's what Willow does. She has stopped growing as a character and just runs around reacting and waving her fingers at stuff she wants, takes and haves... including Tara as we will see later on.

But surely her addication arc shows growth... not really. It's just Willow again, acting according to her pleasure principle, wanting immediate satisfaction.
But surely her coming back from addiction arc shows growth? Meh... she takes a few stumbling steps... right back into the arms of her girlfriend! (Any addication cleansing program worth its salt will tell you to stay away from romantic entaglement for the first months/year of becoming clean so as not to replace one addiction with another.) Is this not what Willow does? Is this not why she can't grieve like a normal person when Tara dies?

Again, turning evil is kind of like depression, in and of itself it doesn't mean that the character is showing any signs of growth. It often points to the contrary. It's what happens after that you may look to for signs of growth.

So lets journey to season 7 and look at Willow. Has she grown? Well, it's rather understandable that at first she reverts back to a rather timid season 1-2 version of herself, but once she's more warm in her clothes and around her friends - is she showing any signs of development?
Again... meh. She's kind of the token witch by this point. What exactly does Willow do during this season, like at all? She's just kind of kept in the background until... dun dun dun... she gets another girlfriend. Clearly Joss and company don't think characters are interesting, or can have interesting storylines, unless they are in a relationship. Is this character development? Well "The Killer in Me" gives us a glimpse of this but it's hardly like this one episode is enough to fullfill a season's arc for a character, even if her girlfriend's tongue is pierced.

Then of course there's the spell at the end of the season. Oh my goddess, Willow can use magic again and for good... yay! Character development or hail mary pass?
Honestly, this is just Willow fixing things with magic again. We're back to the season 6 mindset, she's just using "good" magic now, but internally what has changed? The only difference is that Willow is in a good place now, that her friend's are cheering her on, but if she hadn't been is there anything that says that she wouldn't have gone dark again to "fix" things? Have we really seen her learn that much self-control throughout the season... we might have, had we gotten to see her more than the potentials, but as it is, it seems we're supposed to believe that a few months with Giles, hanging out in a garden, is enough to curve that wicked urge. So no, at the end of season 7 I can't say I see much growth in Willow. If anything, to me, she's the Willow of seasons 3 and 4, except that the only aspect she's more secure in is her sexuality.

And there you have it.
What you see as character development, I think is sloppy writing and character regression.

(I should add though that while in general I think the characters on Ats develop better Cordy is not included in that at all.)
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
this is very well put
UndeadAmerican
UndeadAmerican
while we'll agree to to disagree about Willow, VERY well put about Buffy in s7!!
So let's look at Buffy season 7, has her character developed? Nope! Not in my opinion. To me she has the emotional maturity of a blue berry scone. In fact, she has the mentality of Season 3 Buffy. She's even making the same mistakes in a new setting... having a judged relationship/friendsship with the vampire du jour after a tragedy between the two.
That's not a mistake that's a choice. She believes Spike can be good with a soul and she becomes his friend. Spike goes on to play a large part in saving everyone and has been broadly speaking a decent guy since getting his soul. I chalk that up as not only a choice but a good choice.

Losing trust in Giles and shutting him out (as in after Helpless) And bumbling about high school pretending like she knows what she's doing.
How was Helpless in anyway Buffy's fault? Do you think it's irrational to have trust issues with someone who drugs you and leaves you at the mercy of creatures that want to eat you? Distrust after Helpless (not that she really showed much) is clearly not a mistake but common sense. Same thing after Giles actions in Lies My Parents Told Me. Buffy isn't irrationally deciding she doesn't trust Giles. Giles breaks her trust and so Buffy doesn't trust him.

You could argue I suppose that as the season goes on and she has to become "General Buffy" she grows... but does she really?
Well she wasn't exactly keen on house sharing with an exchange student in Inca Mummy Girl if I remember correctly. Yet here she is opening up a refugee centre in her home house. Providing shelter, food and taking a nightly beating for people she doesn't know. Seems quite mature and selfless to me.

And act like a petty 17 year old once Faith comes to town?
What's the correct reaction when being introduced to someone who kidnapped mother, tried to kill your boyfriend, raped your other boyfriend, tried to torture you to a slow painful death, attempted to kill all your friends and family, stole your body and so on. It's not an old she said this or that type of argument. I'm always impressed by Buffy managing to even be civil to Faith. To expect anything else is a bit much given everything that happened.
 
How was Helpless in anyway Buffy's fault? Do you think it's irrational to have trust issues with someone who drugs you and leaves you at the mercy of creatures that want to eat you? Distrust after Helpless (not that she really showed much) is clearly not a mistake but common sense. Same thing after Giles actions in Lies My Parents Told Me. Buffy isn't irrationally deciding she doesn't trust Giles. Giles breaks her trust and so Buffy doesn't trust him..

I did not say it was her fault. I simply said we see the same dynamic repeated. 
Also, in regards to Faith, Buffy managed to become friendly, even romantic, with both Angel and Spike after they behave horribly towards her. I'm not sure why Faith especially should be detested for her deeds.
 
Also, in regards to Faith, Buffy managed to become friendly, even romantic, with both Angel and Spike after they behave horribly towards her. I'm not sure why Faith especially should be detested for her deeds.
I'm not saying Buffy must detest Faith for her deeds. I'm saying it's completely unfair to expect anything from Buffy in regards to Faith. If she wants to be on good terms with Faith I don't have an issue with it but to say she should just "get over it" in regards to everything Faith has done to her then I have a problem with that.
 
I'm not saying Buffy must detest Faith for her deeds. I'm saying it's completely unfair to expect anything from Buffy in regards to Faith. If she wants to be on good terms with Faith I don't have an issue with it but to say she should just "get over it" in regards to everything Faith has done to her then I have a problem with that.

Again, I didn't say "get over it", I simply said that Buffy starts acting like a 17 year old (jealously asking Faith about Angel, jealously watching Faith with Spike, jealously watching Faith bond better with the girls in the house), I'm not saying that they have to be buddy buddy. I was saying that this behavior does not show that Buffy as a character has notably grown since she was in fact 17.
 
@Mr Pole yeah very well put, but wrong!😉

Haha, of course Buffy isn't the same in season 6. She's gravely depressed in season 6. But depression rarely means character development, often it means regression, it is what comes after a depression that one should look to, the person coming out of all of that pain.

So let's look at Buffy season 7, has her character developed? Nope! Not in my opinion. To me she has the emotional maturity of a blue berry scone. In fact, she has the mentality of Season 3 Buffy. She's even making the same mistakes in a new setting... having a judged relationship/friendsship with the vampire du jour after a tragedy between the two. Losing trust in Giles and shutting him out (as in after Helpless) And bumbling about high school pretending like she knows what she's doing.

You could argue I suppose that as the season goes on and she has to become "General Buffy" she grows... but does she really? Does she not just isolate herself from her friends? Seek comfort in romance that one could consider doomed? And act like a petty 17 year old once Faith comes to town? Does she behave better/take better care of Dawn... meh... she's not depressed anymore but as a parent, Buffy is a failure, Dawn continues to be overlooked and neglected, it's just that she's older now (SHE has matured) so it's not as obvious.

Have we not already seen all of these exact things, and the exact same emotional range? So how exactly has Buffy developed as a character I wonder? I just see her making the same mistakes, not really learning from them, and ending the season by acting not more maturely or wisely but majorly out of character (with the empowerment bit). Buffy in season 7 has for me regressed back into being a teenager.

Let's move on to Willow.
Willow has a good arc of development between season 1-4, she's becoming a young woman, she's finding her sexuality and her talents and..... bam! Grinding halt during season 5-6, for these seasons Willow is exactly this; lesbian who does magic. That's her entire development. There's no internal development, only external. Willow shows clearly that she's an immature child throughout these seasons, who reacts according to her own pleasure principle and only exists in combination with a romantic partner.

E.g. distraught child Dawn, having just lost her mother, is placed in the care of Willow and Tara while Buffy deals with stuff. Said distraught child wants to magically make herself feel better. Tara explain this is not what magic is for/shouldn't be done. Immediate-satisfaction obsessed Willow however, if not literally, practically placed a book with presumably black magic - one that leads to it - into the hands of said child, without supervision, because she can't stand to see Dawn upset. She is well aware what these books contain, and regarldess if she thinks it's impossible for Dawn to reanimate the corpse of her mother, she should not be pleasing Dawn in this respect just to make herself feel better. But that's what Willow does. She has stopped growing as a character and just runs around reacting and waving her fingers at stuff she wants, takes and haves... including Tara as we will see later on.

But surely her addication arc shows growth... not really. It's just Willow again, acting according to her pleasure principle, wanting immediate satisfaction.
But surely her coming back from addiction arc shows growth? Meh... she takes a few stumbling steps... right back into the arms of her girlfriend! (Any addication cleansing program worth its salt will tell you to stay away from romantic entaglement for the first months/year of becoming clean so as not to replace one addiction with another.) Is this not what Willow does? Is this not why she can't grieve like a normal person when Tara dies?

Again, turning evil is kind of like depression, in and of itself it doesn't mean that the character is showing any signs of growth. It often points to the contrary. It's what happens after that you may look to for signs of growth.

So lets journey to season 7 and look at Willow. Has she grown? Well, it's rather understandable that at first she reverts back to a rather timid season 1-2 version of herself, but once she's more warm in her clothes and around her friends - is she showing any signs of development?
Again... meh. She's kind of the token witch by this point. What exactly does Willow do during this season, like at all? She's just kind of kept in the background until... dun dun dun... she gets another girlfriend. Clearly Joss and company don't think characters are interesting, or can have interesting storylines, unless they are in a relationship. Is this character development? Well "The Killer in Me" gives us a glimpse of this but it's hardly like this one episode is enough to fullfill a season's arc for a character, even if her girlfriend's tongue is pierced.

Then of course there's the spell at the end of the season. Oh my goddess, Willow can use magic again and for good... yay! Character development or hail mary pass?
Honestly, this is just Willow fixing things with magic again. We're back to the season 6 mindset, she's just using "good" magic now, but internally what has changed? The only difference is that Willow is in a good place now, that her friend's are cheering her on, but if she hadn't been is there anything that says that she wouldn't have gone dark again to "fix" things? Have we really seen her learn that much self-control throughout the season... we might have, had we gotten to see her more than the potentials, but as it is, it seems we're supposed to believe that a few months with Giles, hanging out in a garden, is enough to curve that wicked urge. So no, at the end of season 7 I can't say I see much growth in Willow. If anything, to me, she's the Willow of seasons 3 and 4, except that the only aspect she's more secure in is her sexuality.

And there you have it.
What you see as character development, I think is sloppy writing and character regression.

(I should add though that while in general I think the characters on Ats develop better Cordy is not included in that at all.)

First Buffy? You seem to be camparing her growth from 6-7 which is not what I meant. I meant from the start of the show up to about S6. At the start of the show she is a slightly imature teenager who seems more concerned with boys and clothes than she is about her role as the Slayer and other more important things. Yet, she goes from this to having a greater sense of world issues, you also have to factor in that she becomes more studies/career focus along the way too. And then you get the darker side of Buffy in the later season, as well as the motherly side when trying to look after Dawn. So I don't know what show you've been watching, besides the one liners, and kicking demon arse, Buffy of S1 is very different from Buffy in the later seasons.

I can't argee with you on Willow. Right you've except that there is lots of growth from 1-4 so no need to comment on that. But where you are wrong is the later seasons. Its not that she is just a witch playing with Magic. She gets addicted to magic to such an extent that she becomes obsessed and starts damaging the people around her. Not only that but for the first time you see Willow's ego rear its head, and the fact that in her own words she might actually want to be more than just a sidekick to Buffy. So there you have it from S1-S4 lots of Willow character development. In fact, I would say that she has the most of any Buffy or Angel character.

Like I said before I am not discrediting the development of the likes of Cordy, Angel and Weshley on Angel. But don't forget Cordy had already started to show growth on Buffy. And many people still like Buffy Cordy more than Angel Cordy. Just saying😉
 
@Mr Pole yeah very well put, but wrong!😉

Buffy of S1 is very different from Buffy in the later seasons.


Like I said before I am not discrediting the development of the likes of Cordy, Angel and Weshley on Angel. But don't forget Cordy had already started to show growth on Buffy. And many people still like Buffy Cordy more than Angel Cordy. Just saying😉

Firstly I will thank you not to tell me that my opinions are wrong just because they clash with yours.

Secondly, yes I will admit that to me Buffy grows as a character between season 1-5, certainly she does. But to me that doesn't mean that much when she regresses back from that in the last two seasons. If she had continued to grow it might've been different. The fact that she doesn't, cannot be ignored because it's part of her over-all arc as a character.

And I already said that I don't count Cordy's 'growth' on Ats, regardless of when she started it.
 
I tend to think of most of the character growth on Angel as being more organic and much more consistant.
Cordy grows on Buffy, but she also regresses an awful lot in S3.
Buffy grows but she regresses those last two seasons (S6 for understandable reasons but really in S7 Buffy's growth comes in those last 2/3 episodes).
Willow regresses in S6 as does unsoulled Spike.
Anya hardly changes at all- in fact by becoming a vengeance demon again she goes backwards as a character.

But on Angel all the characters continually grow through all the seasons that they appear; Angel, Wesley, Cordy, Fred, Gunn, Faith (in her 6 episodes appearances she grows a hell of a lot), hell even villains like Lindsey and Lilah evolve and change. Soulled Spike in S5 of Angel is more interesting than he was on Buffy.

Maybe its the writing, maybe its the more adult tone of the show, but that's the way I've always seen it. For me Buffy has the humour/heart but Angel has the complexity when it comes to the characterisation.
 
Maybe its the writing, maybe its the more adult tone of the show, but that's the way I've always seen it. For me Buffy has the humour/heart but Angel has the complexity when it comes to the characterisation.
I thought since it always went back to the "Buffy is a metaphor dogma" that it was a license that the show did not have to have the same nuanced and well developed characters.
 
I thought since it always went back to the "Buffy is a metaphor dogma" that it was a license that the show did not have to have the same nuanced and well developed characters.

Well maybe, I Buffy as like an essay, there is kind of one over rearching theme, and as long as the show returns to that and uses fresh examples then that is what is important. But I like that what is crucial is the life aspect of the show for me it connects with me more on an emotional level more than Angel.

I think it is a bit of a myth that Angel is the more adult show. It might have the more dark tone to it, but that is more a stylistic thing, there are just as many dark things which happen in Buffy. And just because Buffy was primery a teen show at the start it didn't stay that way after the first couple of seasons. 
Firstly I will thank you not to tell me that my opinions are wrong just because they clash with yours.

Secondly, yes I will admit that to me Buffy grows as a character between season 1-5, certainly she does. But to me that doesn't mean that much when she regresses back from that in the last two seasons. If she had continued to grow it might've been different. The fact that she doesn't, cannot be ignored because it's part of her over-all arc as a character.

And I already said that I don't count Cordy's 'growth' on Ats, regardless of when she started it.

It was a joke. Don't take everything at face value🙂

I don't think 5 seasons of strong growth can be undone by two seasons. There are still interesting things going on with Buffy in the last two seasons just maybe not as good as before. Personally as flawed as S6 maybe I like the darker stuff involving her character.
 
Character development are overrated.
It usually just means that they are slowly loosing whatever quality you liked in the beginning of the show and becomes less fun / adorable / interesting etc.

I would pick Buffy as my favourite of the two.
Not because it has less character development though. 😉
It's just more fun. Better one-liners, more wit and feels more special in general.
AtS seems more ordinary to me. Still a great show but it lacks that special something that I've a hard time to define.

/SK
 
I gave a very noncommittal answer to this before and I've thought about it since.

Angel. I prefer Angel.
It's just more my style these days and when I think of the characters, there are more on Angel that I like near enough all the way through. I find it more consistent.

Plus I like Angel's message, à la "Epiphany".
 
It was a joke. Don't take everything at face value🙂

I don't think 5 seasons of strong growth can be undone by two seasons. There are still interesting things going on with Buffy in the last two seasons just maybe not as good as before. Personally as flawed as S6 maybe I like the darker stuff involving her character.

Or maybe it wasn't a funny joke and that was what I was trying to say.

And that's fine. I just don't see that way.
Also I care for the implication that because one doesn't care for season 6-7 that one doesn't like "darker stuff". I like darker stuff just fine, I just want it to be well-written and executed. (This is not just from you, I've seen it implied many times)
 
Also I care for the implication that because one doesn't care for season 6-7 that one doesn't like "darker stuff". I like darker stuff just fine, I just want it to be well-written and executed. (This is not just from you, I've seen it implied many times)
Oh yeah those darker, more mature later Seasons. You gotta love them. Because we all know the early Seasons were all hugs & puppies. Buffy willingly going to her death at age 16, the Angelus arc or Faith's downfall was a walk in the park. That's not even mentioning darkness you get in non-arc episodes (like Helpless for example). The key for me is balance. And that's what was missing in the later years. Life isn't depression and darkness 24/7, 365 days a year. And it was like that for almost every character in those last Seasons. Can you say overkill?
 
Also I care for the implication that because one doesn't care for season 6-7 that one doesn't like "darker stuff". I like darker stuff just fine, I just want it to be well-written and executed.

Exactly. The theme of S6 isn't 'darkness' per se, it's ennui. And 19/20 episodes of that is really a bit much.

I don't think S7 is that dark though, and I like some bits of it just fine.
 
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