Which show had better Big Bads? Btvs or "Angel"

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Joshua

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Who had the better and better executed big bads?

BTVS had:

The Master
Spike / Drusilla
Angelus
The First Evil
Caleb
Bringers
Uber-Vamps
Glory
The Trio
Dark Willow
Faith
The Mayor

From what I remember Angel had:

Jasmine
Evil Cordy
The Beast
Wolfram & Hart
Holtz

that's off the top of my head. But which show had the better and more executed big bads? "Angel" or BtVS
 
I wouldn't really call Jasmine a 'big bad' and honestly, if you look at the fact that her motivations were for world peace, then "evil" Cordy would not be considered a Big Bad either. If you consider Holtz a big bad for being twisted and manipulated by Sahjhan, then you must too consider Wesley a big bad. So we can leave them off the list. The Beast was merely a puppet. That leaves Wolfram & Hart as the only true big bad.
 
There was also Maggie Walsh/Adam on Buffy (easy to forget I know) and Darla on Angel. Although technically there weren't actually many 'Big Bads' on Angel (as in villains with world-ending plots) the villains were always more personal, apart from W&H and Cordy/Jasmine.
(And the Beast- if Faith the henchman is a BB then The Beast is as well)
I say Jasmine because, sure, (mind-controlled) world peace, but she eats people and we saw what she did to the last dimension she inhabited. The decimated one she dismisses as a simple 'test run'.
To me, Jasmine is just another form of evil, just more insidious.

As far as 'best' it depends on what you mean, entertaining or effective? If we're talking Effective then I'd go with W&H because they almost succeeded in their goal.

But entertainment-wise I've always been more fond of the early Buffy bad guys- Spike/Dru, Angelus, The Mayor/Faith, they were fun to watch and usually had a touch of humanity to them that made them interesting.

Adam was effective but pretty dull.
Glory was original but many find her extremely irritating/incompetent.

The Trio weren't a big bad in the sense that they hadn't any grand plan at all. Dark Willow was really fun but has so many apologists that say that she wasn't really Willow (she was) and kind of muddy the waters for me. Plus she only had 3 episodes to shine.

The First was a MASSIVE wasted opportunity- could've been one of the greats but instead barely interacted with anybody other than Spike. After 'CWDP' they needed somebody who could write psychological torture for all of the Scoobies (all of whom are a massive mess at this point after S6) and really done a number on them.
 
If we take as true the Skip's words, and I think they were, then Jasmine was better Big Bad ever. She has manipulated the existences of all of them, planning her return, in bodily form, since the arrival of Angel in Los Angeles. She has set in motion all the events that led to the return of Darla, the birth of Connor, the return of Holtz, the ascension of Cordelia etc.. and she did all this, obscuring their free will, disguising herself behind the face of "the bearer of peace and love." A Big Bad terrifying and wasn't possible to fight her, because they were not even aware of her presence.
 
janas said:
If we take as true the Skip's words, and I think they were, then Jasmine was better Big Bad ever. She has manipulated the existences of all of them, planning her return, in bodily form, since the arrival of Angel in Los Angeles. She has set in motion all the events that led to the return of Darla, the birth of Connor, the return of Holtz, the ascension of Cordelia etc.. and she did all this, obscuring their free will, disguising herself behind the face of "the bearer of peace and love." A Big Bad terrifying and wasn't possible to fight her, because they were not even aware of her presence.
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But not only that.. she had to make sure Doyle's ex didn't eat him, the ghost in Cordy's apartment didn't kill her, and Doyle sacrificed himself to stop the bomb. (it was a bomb wasnt it?)
 
I think it depends on what your definition of a big bad is. Cause remember Spike wasn't trying to end the world in S2. I would say a recurring villain who wants kill Buffy and/or wants to rule/destroy the world or is working for someone that does. I'm going to say that Buffy overall has the better big bads. W&H is great and I like the Beast but overall I don't like the 'Angel' big bads. I hate Holtz, creeped out by Evil Cordy, then Jasmine fell flat for me. I don't think Darla was really a big bad, but I love Darla. Whose big bad was most effective? Probably Jasmine, she was so close if it hadn't been for Fred. The Master was close but Xander resuscitated Buffy.
thetopher said:
Glory was original but many find her extremely irritating/incompetent.
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It's a shame, because Glory being a god that Buffy couldn't really touch, could have been so great. The problem I have with Glory is they introduce her way to early and she just sits around looking for the key the rest of the season. In S2 we get Spike and Dru the first half then we get Angelus the later half, a more personal villain. S3 we get The Mayor in e5 I think, but we get Mr. Trick then replaced by Faith, a more personl villain, and the Mayors plans aren't really revealed until half way through. In s4 we have Maggie Walsh and the Initiative the first half then Adam, and no personal villain, which is why is partly fails. With Glory there's nothing really setting her up and Buffy spends all season fighting Glory which gets old fast. S6 the Trio is there but not a threat, but sets up Dark Willow. And then they did it again with S7 by introducing the First too soon and not doing anything with it until the Turok-Han and Caleb.
 
Buffy did not have a credible 'big bad' since the third season. Everyone after that was just phoned in. 
Fuffy Baith said:
And then they did it again with S7 by introducing the First too soon and not doing anything with it until the Turok-Han and Caleb.
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The First was introduced in Season 3.. the writers just never bothered to do anything WITH it until season 7.
 
Scobro said:
Buffy did not have a credible 'big bad' since the third season. Everyone after that was just phoned in. 

The First was introduced in Season 3.. the writers just never bothered to do anything WITH it until season 7.
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I agree. Oh yea being introduced in season 3 is waaay too early. lol. I don't mind Glory, I prefer her to Adam, the Trio and The First probably. I'm not sure the Trio was ever meant to really be a threat, if they were, then that was a huge fail. Dark Willow was fine in the sense that she was powerful and capable enough of ending the world, it's just getting to Dark Willow is terrible. Caleb was fine, he could have been introduced earlier or had the Turok-Han more involved. And the First should have just been more competent and make sense. It has Spike under control but after Sleeper doesn't use him, impersonates as one potential getting under their skin, then drives one to suicide but continues to not really do anything and theres no sense of urgency to it all.
The first 3 seasons of BtVS had such great villains, imo. On 'Angel' it's just mostly Wolfram and Hart. Which is great, but I don't care for Holtz or Jasmine/Evil Cordy or even Eve and Hamilton as less villains in S5.
 
If we compare the official two big bads, which are the First and W&H, than W&H is better and the First was such a wasted opportunity. But the First did have the opportunity to be to Buffy what W&H was to Angel (hence why I compare them to each other). I don't think s3 was too early to introduce the First, I just think they should have had a slightly bigger lead up to s7, at least have a few appearances per season.

If we compare every other big bads, I think Buffy has a superior line of baddies. DW, Angelus, Faith, Glory, the Mayor were all really iconic and epic big bads. AtS has what? Jasmine and Cordy? Both which were part of the worst AtS season. It's not too great. The bests were always associated with W&H.
 
W&H are better than the First for sure!

Otherwise, I'd say BTVS. The Master was cheesy but that was part of the appeal and at least he was stuck underground (rather than languishing in a fancy building like Glory who had the power to tear up the town in search of the Key, during day and night time), Spike and Drusilla and later Angelus were all pure gold for me, The Mayor equally so, especially in combination with Faith. Later yes, BTVS villains were less... just less everything. Adam, The Trio, The First - from ridiculous to underwhelming in the extreme.

But in comparison, W&H and Darla and Dru are the only villians I ever really thought were good on Ats. Holtz had his moments but in a sense I felt like they dragged that out too long, or just not in the right way maybe, I don't know, I just know that he doesn't stick out in my mind as a great villain. And the whole Beast-Jasmine-Cordy thing was just... well there sure as heck wasn't a great villain in there. It was just weird, a little bit confusing and ultimately very disappointing.

So all in all I'd say Btvs.
 
I don't see Holtz as a villain in the sense of someone working for the supremacy of evil. He was misguided by vengeance as were Anya and Dark Willow. Nor do I see Spike, Drusilla, the Trio (maybe with the exception of Warren) or Faith as villains. Vampires are like wild animals, they are what they are because an external demon took them over but this demon only acts in its own interest and not for the dominance of evil. Glory is in the same position. My favourite villain is Wolfram & Hart because although lawyers often have a bad image, this is the first attempt to create a villainous law firm with multidimensional connections including a solid connection to the ultimate Satanic presence. The First - and Buffy even dismissed him as "the Taunter" - was supposed to the equivalent of Satan but somehow never developed sufficient Satanic horsepower to be a credible threat. And as they say in drag racing, there is horsepower and there are other horse products.
 
AtS, no contest. They win just by having Wolfram and Hart alone.

I loved the Angelus/Drusilla/Spike trio, the Mayor and Faith, Dark Willow and (to a lesser extent) Glory, but the villains on Angel just had more complex and morally gray motivations and that just made them considerably more interesting. Wolfram and Hart worked as a huge corporate entity run by unseen eldritch abominations, while being populated with several interesting human characters (Manners, Lindsey, Lilah, etc.). And that's not even getting into Darla's complicated history with Angel, Holtz's insane but somewhat justified pursuit of vengeance, the fact that the Beast is seriously the coolest and most intimidating looking demon on either show, and Jasmine's quest to bring about world peace at the cost of shed blood.

There's just a lot more meat to them. Only Angelus and the Mayor can really rival them in complexity, and that was mostly due to their effects on Buffy and Faith's character arcs rather than their own.
 
Aside from season 7 and to some extent season 4, I liked what Buffy did with its bad guys. It started with the master, which as it is a vampire show, was fitting. But after that it kept innovating and trying different things. Season 2, obviously with Angel becoming Angelus was one, if not, the central storyline that came to define the whole show. The mayor was played by an actor, who just brought a great energy to the role, and I felt similar with Glory. Adam was less impressive, true, but season 4 did bring in the innovative idea of the initiative, which added some interesting elements to the story. Season 6, I liked how it has the characters own inner demons being the evil and explores this, if a bit painfully at times to watch. Season 7 is where enough was not done with the big bad to my mind. Too much attention was put on Buffy and the potentials, and on setting up their successful crusade against evil. I remember from my last rewatch wondering when was Caleb finally going to appear and shake things up. And it takes forever and then is rushed. First time round it was enjoyable, but on reflection you can see that more could have been done to build this up over the whole series. Rather than wasting too much time on the Uber vamp who just had no meaningful personal sense of evilness. He was like a reptilian kind of purely instinctual evil that couldn't therefore really have an emotional effect on the story.

Angel on the other hand doesn't try to imitate and goes its own way. Wolfram and Hart does a good job at illustrating the complexity of real evil characters, who yet also still do have a weak human side. Cordelia as evil doesn't work well. I liked the Darla and Drusilla section, but its not a big bad and doesn't last long. I liked the alternate dimension end of season 2 ending. No specific big bad, but plenty of complex evil things are dealt with. Jasmine, I find to be a very interesting kind of evil. And I liked how it showed her face covered in maggots to those who saw a glimpse of her true face. It was effective, and once again also complex, as she would indeed have brought a kind of peace to the world. But it would have been with humans as slaves being brainwashed. Season 5 also, on the whole, I thought was done well as an innovative portrayal of evil.

So all in all Buffy wins for big bads, but it is much closer, and maybe just on the side of Angel in terms of portrayals of more subtle and pervasive forms of evil in the world, that don't just inhabit big bad individuals, but can have an effect on us all and can influence the whole environment and atmosphere in which we live our lives.
 
My top 3 big bads are:
-Hamilton
-Glory
-Holland Manners

All 3 radiate confidence and power. Holland manners spoke to Angel just 3 times and two of those times he messed angel's mind. love the way he carried himself.
Glory was a powerhouse that could afford to be silly and clownish and still scare the hell out of everyone no matter who they were.
Hamilton, he knew he was powerful. very civilized until it was time to not be civilized and still acted civilized and calm while sending you through a wall.
 
Mr. Pole said:
Buffy did not have a credible 'big bad' since the third season. Everyone after that was just phoned in. 

The First was introduced in Season 3.. the writers just never bothered to do anything WITH it until season 7.
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Glory begs to differ with you on that first point.

I don't see it as them not being bothered with the first again til 7. Its like many things in Buffy they foreground something early on and then return to it much later. Besides given everything which the first is meant to represent it makes total sense to me that it was the big bad of the final season if you can call it that.

Another thing is that Buffy as a show become less concerned with Big Bads in the later seasons. It became more focused on the life challenges of the characters and how this is balanced with the fight against evil, and it also about the blurring of the lines between good and evil. Again I defend the writers here because if they had put too much effect into the big bads then it just would have become overkill and predictable.

Fuffy Baith said:
I agree. Oh yea being introduced in season 3 is waaay too early. lol. I don't mind Glory, I prefer her to Adam, the Trio and The First probably. I'm not sure the Trio was ever meant to really be a threat, if they were, then that was a huge fail. Dark Willow was fine in the sense that she was powerful and capable enough of ending the world, it's just getting to Dark Willow is terrible. Caleb was fine, he could have been introduced earlier or had the Turok-Han more involved. And the First should have just been more competent and make sense. It has Spike under control but after Sleeper doesn't use him, impersonates as one potential getting under their skin, then drives one to suicide but continues to not really do anything and theres no sense of urgency to it all.
The first 3 seasons of BtVS had such great villains, imo. On 'Angel' it's just mostly Wolfram and Hart. Which is great, but I don't care for Holtz or Jasmine/Evil Cordy or even Eve and Hamilton as less villains in S5.
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Think they tried to go in a different direction with the trio but for me it bombed. Those are just supporting characters they should not be taking up so much screen time.
 
If you don't mind I first need to correct some errors in understanding of the AtS villains.
Joshua said:
Jasmine
Evil Cordy
The Beast
Wolfram & Hart
Holtz
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Jasmine and Evil Cordy are one and the same. Evil Cordy WAS Jasmine (how her evil behavior while using Cordy connects with her saintly disguise once's she's born into her own being is beyond me though).
Then you forgetting villains; we also had Darla and Dru in season 2 (though Darla was a little of both good and evil for her AtS duration) and then Angelus returns again in season 4 as a player in Evil Cordy's crap. Then, though I've not seen season 5, I think I've read that The First actually plays a role in it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Both series had their well developed and gripping villains but also their ridiculous nonsense villains.

In BTVS I'd have to say my top favorites are:

The Master - Even though we don't really know that he's somewhere between a primitive and modern vampire until the primitives are directly introduced in season 7, he just has this classic Nosferatu feel to him. The whole thing with the anointed one was idiotic, but I can get passed that.

Mayor Wilkins - A human man who sold his soul to become pure demon was pretty attention grabbing especially with the revelation that Schnider was working for him the whole time, that made a world of sense of Schnider's attitude towards Buffy. I also enjoyed the whole arc where he became Faith's ideal father figure.

The initiative and Adam - There were a lot of great things going on here, basically a modern-day Frankenstein's lab fused with the concept of the short-lived series Dark Angel (It sadly only lasted two seasons but was a well-done series, I recommend checking it out). The idea of a military operation experimenting to make the perfect soldier by combining human, robot and demon is totally intriguing. The concept of Adam was well developed and kind of symbolic. Once a young man who met a tragic end brought back as the first, the Adam of the new Demonoid hybrid species they've been experimenting with. That his first act was to kill his creator in a way could even represent Adam and Eve's betrayal in Eden.

My favorites in AtS:

Holtz: To an extent. I hated the whole 'the father will kill the son' thing, but the whole backstory of the Holtz character and the concept of a vengeful vampire hunter was kinda unique to this franchise. While I didn't quite understand the logic behind the whole Austin Powers, suspended animation act the whole support group for victims of vampires was pretty interesting. I'll give it that how as a result he had to face Angel now as opposed to Angelus was an interesting contrast. I remember being on the edge of my seat waiting for him to discover Angel's soul because I was anxious to see his reaction. Then I must admit though I can't stand Teenage Connor, turning Angel's old child against him was kind of a brilliant act on Holtz's part.

Wolfram and Hart: Although it's not original for demons to "hide behind man's law" as the Oracle in 'To Shanshu in LA' once put it and they weren't fully developed because it was never made clear why they wanted to turn Angel back into Angelus or what they're ultimate goal was, these guys were well organized, unpredictable and infuriating. Plus you got this whole conflicted thing with the Lindsey character. First he's an asshole then suddenly he's this tortured artist whom you want to sympathize with...oh wait... never mind he's an asshole again. I've got to admit Christian Kane does have a great singing voice.

Now the one who makes the top of my list in BOTH series, Angelus! His sick, twisted nature is just so darkly poetic. The whole thing with him and Evil Cordy in season 4 of AtS was stupid but before that, the whole Hannibal thing with him in the cage was brilliant and likewise for his whole duration in BTVS. 'Passion' was my favorite Angelus episode in BTVS for that whole other side of the coin of his obsession with Buffy. The sickness of it, the chillingly Oscar-winning performance as Angel and his monolog at the end, I know I've used this word already but...BRILLIANT!

Mr Trick said:
Think they tried to go in a different direction with the trio but for me it bombed. Those are just supporting characters they should not be taking up so much screen time.
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I agree, the trio was ridiculous. You know how in 'Normal Again' the doctor in the institution described them as being a sign that Buffy's delusion world was growing weak? That's exactly what I think it was concept wise, Whedon's creativity progressively weakening beginning with Glory. Though The First in 7 is kinda intriguing so far (I haven't finished it).
 
This is somewhat of a difficult question for me too. I also agree with others that Wolfram and Hart are the best big bad for me...and the most interesting, for what we learn about them and also for what we don't know about them. I like the mystery and unresolved questions that surround them, and I love that we never saw them either.

Buffy had a lot of great big bads though, and some that were...not so much. But Wolfram and Hart just seemed so much more menacing, and they were never beaten either. They were more formidable because they played their game from behind the scenes, pulling strings. It's frustrating and intimidating fighting an opponent that doesn't even need to do it directly themselves.
 
It's a huge difference between comparing the big bads, enemies (appearing in many episodes) or baddies of the week. When it comes to the big bads it's Ats for me. They're so much bigger in scale which in itself can be boring but in this case I don't see it that way. Wolfram & Hart and their employees can be annoying but at the same time but are at the same time great. I see them as the big bad of Ats and that's it. In Buffy you got a new one each season. I love the whole idea of "Life as the big bad" in season 6 but at the same time in general you don't see "Life" itself as a big bad as such. I'd never call The trio or Dark Willow big bads but that's me and not fact. We all have our own descriptions.
 
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