Which Vampire Benefited The Most?

[white avenger]

Here's another Spike/Angel question, but one that isn't really a Spuffy vs Bangel one.

Which vampire do you think benefited the most from his relationship with Buffy, and why?

Angel, who was dragged out of a filthy alley and inspired to become a hero and a defender of the helpless?

Spike, who made the transformation from monster to hero and Champion of the Battle Of The Hellmouth?

And remember, this is not a "who loved who the most" question. Both men were influenced and inspired by our favorite Slayer. Which one benefited the most from his time spent with Buffy?

Now, I'm gonna shock a bunch of people.

I think that Angel probably benefited the most from the time that he spent with Buffy. "Why?" you might ask. Well...

Buffy not only inspired Angel to become a better man, she also inspired him to be more than the guy who always had the Slayer's back, no matter how important that duty might be. He was able to define his own mission, set up his own team, and become more than just the Robin to Buffy's Batman.

It took being literally burned to ashes and transported into the heart of an Evil Law Firm to pry Spike away from Buffy's side. If not for that he would never have left. (That's not saying that Spike isn't now, at last, his own man, only that Buffy wasn't the direct inspiration for that change)

 

[ladydorotea]

Egads. Do you ever post on any other topic but ever so inviting shipper war? Sorry to sound exhasperated but does not this become tiresome after a while?

 

[dexeded]

I'd say Spike. Spike was an active danger to humans, and he only really turned good because of Buffy. Angel already had a soul, and I think that the PTB would have intervened even without using Buffy as a motivator. Angel would have forged ties with the world eventually.

 

[randiann]

I agree with [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] (for once). Angel overall benefitted from the transformation that came about as a result of meeting Buffy and their relationship. Angel truly transformed his life and went from a lonely sad creature that shirked the company of all others to a hero with a purpose in the world. He is still not a "people person" by any means, but he was able to reintergrate himself into society and find meaning in his life. Meeting Whistler first and then Buffy, and falling in love with her brought Angel out of the shadows. Becoming evil and then regaining his soul showed him the dangers of selfish thought (meaning self-focused thought like most of us have most of the time...we are focused on ourselves and what we want). Finally, leaving Buffy (both in S3 and in Angel S1 in IWRY) was the ultimate test as to whether Angel could put himself second and focus instead on the mission-helping the helpless. Angel was completely transformed in the 3-4 years after meeting Buffy from a shadow of a creature to a hero of the people.

Spike on the other hand went from "badass villian" to "mopey, super creepy former badass" to "basement loon" to "badass (but with less edge) who doesn't eat people." Spike pre-soul and pre-Buffy is the same Spike post-Buffy (I'm talking Angel S5 Spike here), just with slightly more of a moral compass. Being with Buffy (not just in a relationship but through her influence as well) didn't change who Spike "is" nearly as much as it did Angel. And I think Angel is the better man of the two for the change.

By the way, for my own purposes all Buffy and Angel stops at Angel Season 5. Just FYI.

 

[Jodast]

On first thought, I figured Spike, no question. After all he went from being irredeemably evil to being a champion for good as [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] said above. Then I thought about it some more. Spike as we first see him is pretty awesome. He travels around killing and maiming and generally enjoying himself, in an evil and sadistic kind of way. His quality of life is actuallly very good and he doesn't really want for anythimg, bsides his beloved Dru to be healthy again. And also a bit less mental. Being with Buffy made Spike a better person but whether it was more beneficial is open to debate.

Angel on the other hand was afflicted with a curse which gave him a guilty coscience and wouldn't allow him to feed on humans, so he was rummaging around scavenging for whatever he could sink his teeth into and living as a bum. He had no quality of life didn't enjoy anything and had no purpose. Being with Buffy made him realise he could try to make amends (sorry 🙂 ) for the things he had done in his past and live a worthwhile life.

 

[brinkster130]

Interesting question, I've never really thought about this before. Certainly both vampires benefited, but I do think Angel benefited much more than Spike.

Like White Avenger said, being with Buffy help Angel to realize his own mission in life. He has something to live for and work towards in life that is his totally his own. I don't think the same can be said for Spike, at this point, his life still completely revolves around Buffy and what she does or doesn't do.

IMO, having your own reason for living and doing what you do has a much bigger impact on ones life than falling into line and participating in someone else's mission.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm picking Angel for this one, hands down.

Now, they both changed, without question. They were both heavily influenced by Buffy and everything they shared with her, but I think the difference is that with Angel, Buffy finally, after decades of virtually nothing, gave Angel something worth living for, and something worth fighting for, even if he can't be with her.

Angel really developed that whole "fight the good fight, live in the world as it should be" attitude after he was forced to leave Buffy. I think she was his light. BUFFY was the "world as it should be" for Angel. He became pretty much the ultimate champion (just as much as Buffy herself) when he went to L.A., and the entire world benefited. I think he changed, for the better, immensely because of Buffy. And the message I take from "Chosen", and the talk that they have together, is that some day, when the fighting is done (if that day ever comes), they'll be together (sorry, couldn't help it 🙂).

This doesn't take a thing away from Spike. He, and everyone he saves as a result, had a huge change of his own thanks to Buffy, but I don't think it was as dramatic as Angel's.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Interesting question.

I'd say Angel has benefited more in an abstract way, but Spike benefited more in a demonstrable way (I'm sorry for a clumsy phrasing).

Angel's best moments happened on his own show, when he was away from Buffy. Spike's most glorious moments took place on BtVS and Buffy was a catalyst for them.

 

[white avenger]

I take from "Chosen", and the talk that they have together, is that some day, when the fighting is done (if that day ever comes), they'll be together (sorry, couldn't help it 🙂).

I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it......

But you KNOW how badly I want to.

 

[Washburne]

I doubt season 2 Spike would have liked the "champion" Spike. Or more exactly, we know that he'd hated him. So is it us that decide that he benefitet from his friendship with Buffy because he became good? Is it really that easy?

Spike was happy with who he was when he first met Buffy, Angel wasn't. So in that perspective I'd say that Angel benefited the most. No contest.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

I'd go with Angel. Without Buffy he'd still be living off of rats in the streets all depressed. Buffy showed him he could be depressed in a big house instead.

I think Spike became something he hated during season 4-6, so I think he'd say you're crazy if you told him he benefited from meeting Buffy during that time period. In season 7 a new souled Spike would agree though, but I also think Spike benefited a lot from working along side Angel after he fried in Sunnydale. He stopped being a "fool for love" and started to be his own man again.

EDIT: Random thought: Without Buffy - Angel wouldn't have become the Champion to the powers. Without Buffy - Angel wouldn't have gotten involved with the fight between good and evil, so Angel wouldn't have become the deciding role in helping evil in the big final apocalypse as shown in "After The Fall"? 😵 Buffy helped the big evil? o.o

 

[EVIL UU]

How about none of them?

Spike was a proper, evil vampire. Classy car, gorgeous criminally insane girlfriend and as much booze, smokes, blood and violence he fancied. What else can a vampire ask for? He was a freaking rock star. Yeah, he was evil all right but he was happy.

Buffy ruined everything.

Angel? Oh, he was miserable after that incident in the 70s but you know what? It was better, there was still hope for him. Thanks to Buffy, Angel is now like Sisyphus, rolling the boulder just to watch it roll back over and over again, except his boulder gets heavier every time. Sooner or later it will crush the poor bastard. His faith is sealed.

Look, nobody has ever benefited from a relationship with Buffy. She's Ebola and dubstep remix combined, ruins everything she touches.

 

[white avenger]

I doubt season 2 Spike would have liked the "champion" Spike. Or more exactly, we know that he'd hated him.

Actually, I think that the old, evil Spike, after the initial shock, would have been quite satisfied with, and maybe even proud of, what Spike became because of his association with and feelings for Buffy. He always struck me, even when he was evil, as being the kind of guy who envisioned himself as the knight, bravely protecting and caring for his lady. It's what he did with Dru, and it's what he did with Buffy, from the moment that she told him about being pulled out of hell until he burned to ashes in the hellmouth, if not longer. Whether good or evil, all that Spike ever asked was to have someone to love and care for, whether it be an ill, dying mother, a barely sane vampire girl friend, or a heart broken Slayer trying to cope responsibilities that she had been happy to leave behind.

I think that Spike always saw himself as a champion in the classic sense of the word, a protector, defender, and provider to someone who genuinely needed, even though often unappreciated, him and what he could do for them. It just took him over a century to find someone who would finally recognize and acknowledge him as her Champion.

 

[ladydorotea]

He always struck me, even when he was evil, as being the kind of guy who envisioned himself as the knight, bravely protecting and caring for his lady.

A few quotes from the knight in shining armor here for you - some from soulless version, some from souled. All perfectly misogynistic and funny.

"Harmony: "You love that tunnel more than me."
Spike: "I love syphilis more than you."

"I'm really glad I came here, you know? I've been all
wrongheaded about this. Weeping, crawling, blaming everybody else. I
want Dru back, I've just gotta be the man I was, (stands proud) the man
she loved. I'm gonna do what I shoulda done in the first place: I'll
find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her until she likes me
again."

"... then asked the women he'd saved if they'd, quote, like to get a bottle of hooch and listen to some Sex Pistols records with him."

I think that Spike always saw himself as a champion in the classic sense of the word, a protector, defender, and provider to someone who genuinely needed, even though often unappreciated, him and what he could do for them. It just took him over a century to find someone who would finally recognize and acknowledge him as her Champion.

" I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims. "

 

[dexeded]

Reading over this thread again, I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'benefited'. My initial answer was Spike, because evil->good... but he was indeed happy as evil!Spike. But at the same time, good!Spike wouldn't choose to backslide. Angel wasn't happy with the soul till he met Buffy, so I guess that would be benefiting more.

Still, my first answer to this (you can see it if you scroll up a little bit) was Spike, and that choice does work in my first definition of 'benefited'. Spike because of the 'evil to good' thing, compared to Angel, who was 'useless->good'.

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

I didn't say that he WAS a shining knight, just that he envisioned himself as one.

I suppose it implies that Spike's take on knighthood is very special indeed , and includes calling his current GF's names like 'stupid bint', bitch, etc, while worshiping absolute. You know, I kind of agree with that. In my personal experience many men are like this in RL - i.e thinking that basic misogyny and lack of restraint somehow translates into 'gallantry' when coupled with obsessive crush on 'ideal' that exists only in their mind. The real girls that are not perfect can be used and abused, called names, objectified, stalked and etc - because reality has nothing to do with 'ideal woman' that such a 'knight' holds in high regard in their mind.

 

[Cheese Slices]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

I suppose it implies that Spike's take on knighthood is very special indeed , and includes calling his current GF's names like 'stupid bint', bitch, etc, while worshiping absolute. You know, I kind of agree with that. In my personal experience many men are like this in RL - i.e thinking that basic misogyny and lack of restraint somehow translates into 'gallantry' when coupled with obsessive crush on 'ideal' that exists only in their mind. The real girls that are not perfect can be used and abused, called names, objectified, stalked and etc - because reality has nothing to do with 'ideal woman' that such a 'knight' holds in high regard in their mind.

I never get it when people call Spike a misogynist. Sure he says things like bitch or bint, but that's not because they're women. It's just a way to insult people whom he's mad at, just like when he calls some men "wankers" or other kind words.
I think you're referring to Harmony, and although his treatment of her is awful, it has (again) nothing to do with her being a woman. Buffy herself didn't think much of Harmony and insulted her, does that mean she's misogynistic ?
Spike always showed a lot of respect toward women : Cecily, Dru, Joyce, Dawn, Willow, Tara and of course Buffy.
Stalking and objectifying someone isn't necessarily misogyny: women can stalk and objectify men as well.
I feel like the word misogyny is used every time a man insults a woman, whereas he can do it because he doesn't like this woman's personality, or because he's angry or whatever...

 

[ladydorotea]

I never get it when people call Spike a misogynist. Sure he says things like bitch or bint, but that's not because they're women. It's just a way to insult people whom he's mad at, just like when he calls some men "wankers" or other kind words.

In these particular case/s Spike calls women with whom he is supposedly 'in love' or at least sleeping with bitch, stupid bint, etc. It is a subtle difference when one is insulting sexual partner/potential love interest and at the same time making passes at them/ f**ng them. And that's what makes the exchange misogyny. I would not put Spike insulting Willow into the same bin - that he does just of pure bad temper.

I think you're referring to Harmony, and although his treatment of her is awful, it has (again) nothing to do with her being a woman.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with Harmony being a woman, and an imperfect GF in particular. Its a trope and one of the most commonly misused. On another occasion Spike treats Drusilla like a disposable too - when offering to dust her for the sake of getting Buffy's favor. It is clear and present sign of him immediately switching from 'obsessed over' mode to the 'disposable object' mode. Same goes for Spike's treatment of his mother - after he turns her.

Spike always showed a lot of respect toward women : Cecily, Dru, Joyce, Dawn, Willow, Tara and of course Buffy.

Showing respect does not equate with obsessive adoration (Cecily, Dru, Buffy) that can turn into objectification on the next turn.

I feel like the word misogyny is used every time a man insults a woman, whereas he can do it because he doesn't like this woman's personality, or because he's angry or whatever...

Actually, insulting any woman just because you are angry or whatever is a clear sign of misogyny - sorry to need to point this out. See Billy Angel's ep of S3 for reference.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11751]Cheese Slices[/MENTION]

I never get it when people call Spike a misogynist.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because he's a RAPIST?

Spike always showed a lot of respect toward women : Cecily

Unhealthy obsession.

Dru

Kidnapping, torture and rape.

Willow

He kidnapped her, he also tried to kill and most likely rape her.

of course Buffy

He tried to kill her, rape her and left to be killed by Angelus.

Dawn

He took a 14 year old kid to a demon...

Joyce

so she could bring her dead mother back as a freaking zombie, just because he's obsessed with her sister.

If that's respect then...I don't know, I just don't know.

 

[Cheese Slices]

In these particular case/s Spike calls women with whom he is supposedly 'in love' or at least sleeping with bitch, stupid bint, etc. It is a subtle difference when one is insulting sexual partner/potential love interest and at the same time making passes at them/ f**ng them. And that's what makes the exchange misogyny. I would not put Spike insulting Willow into the same bin - that he does just of pure bad temper.

What about Buffy calling him a "thing" or "convenient"? Does that mean she's mismanistic ? (ok I don't know what the word is or if it even exists 😛). I'm gonna have to disagree again, but what you're describing makes him a jerk at worst, not a misogynist. If he thought all women were bitches, then yeah, he would be, but that's not the case.

On the contrary, it has everything to do with Harmony being a woman, and an imperfect GF in particular. Its a trope and one of the most commonly misused. On another occasion Spike treats Drusilla like a disposable too - when offering to dust her for the sake of getting Buffy's favor. It is clear and present sign of him immediately switching from 'obsessed over' mode to the 'disposable object' mode. Same goes for Spike's treatment of his mother - after he turns her.

Harmony was a rebound to Spike, a scapegoat whom he put all his frustration over his break up with Dru on. Again, no, it has nothing to do with her being a woman, but with Spike being an angry ass 😀 As for Dru, he didn't offer to stake her because she's a woman, but because he wanted to prove (in a very wrong and lame way) his love for Buffy by sacrificing someone who means a lot to him.
About his mother, remind me because I don't see how he treats her like an object. All he does is asking her what she'd like to do. What a monster indeed.

Showing respect does not equate with obsessive adoration (Cecily, Dru, Buffy) that can turn into objectification on the next turn.

I agree with the "obessive adoration" part, because he tends to put the women he loves on a pedestal, although he comes to love Buffy just for what she is in the end.

Actually, insulting any woman just because you are angry or whatever is a clear sign of misogyny - sorry to need to point this out. See Billy Angel's ep of S3 for reference.

I always thought that misogyny was hating and despise women because they're women. Insulting a woman while you're angry is the same as insulting a man while you're angry: you're just not controlling yourself. I'm a little bit tired of people not considering women as persons.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------

[MENTION=11751]Cheese Slices[/MENTION]


Oh, I don't know, maybe because he's a RAPIST?

Okay, if you're talking about evil Spike: yes he raped women, as did Angel, that usually comes along with the being evil thing.
If you're talking about the AR: it was a personal situation. He thought that if pushed things a bit, Buffy would be back to being physical with him (and boy was that wrong), but he wasn't "Buffy is a woman, women are bitches, let's rape her". Let me remind you that men get raped too. Rape is usually about power, not misogyny.

Unhealthy obsession.

Yeah, writing poetry about her, what a creep.

Kidnapping, torture and rape.

It's pretty clearly stated that Drusilla is the dominant and the one who initiated him to SM stuff. Just take a look at her relationship with Angel, you'll feel she wasn't particularly disgusted.

He kidnapped her, he also tried to kill and most likely rape her.


He tried to kill her, rape her and left to be killed by Angelus.

For the AR: see above.
For the attempt to kill her: well duh, he was a soulless vampire.

He took a 14 year old kid to a demon...


so she could bring her dead mother back as a freaking zombie, just because he's obsessed with her sister.

Oh Come on ! He says himself that if Buffy found out, she's kill him, so he didn't do it to get in her pants, he just didn't like Dawn suffering, and since he was soulless, had no moral compass, he couldn't understand how that was wrong.

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] : to answer your reputation comment : I never said Spike wasn't a monster, I said he wasn't a misogynist to me and tried to make my point. There's a difference.