Which Vampire Benefited The Most?

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=11751]Cheese Slices[/MENTION] I know we are on a different page here, but trust me when I say that display of obsessive adoration over individual women who are not available (Cecily, Buffy), coupled with insulting/threatening other women who are either one's sexual partner/s that are not perfect, or former GF's who are no longer desirable (Dru, Harmony), are all classic signs of misogyny. Google it up. I would not have went into this much detail on the subject if not for [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]'s insistence that all of the above are signs of 'gallant knighthood'. With Buffy, I want to point out that Spike is her only deviation into this kind of behavior - she usually does not treat her sexual partners/lovers this way and her clinical depression/self-hatred must be the reason for the precedent.

Also being a rebound does not make one fair game for sexual exploitation and insults. And normally misogyny is associated with repressed, misdirected sexual urges .

 

[Cheese Slices]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] : I get what you're saying, but that's just not misogyny to me, because it makes it seem like all these women are persons, have a personality and all these events aren't due to their gender, but to certain circumstances and said personalities.
I agree about Buffy, and I'm the first to cut her some slack, but that doesn't change the way she treats him. And that actually makes a point for Spike's treatment of Harmony: he was very upset and kind of depressed, but since he's a man it's absolutely awful whereas with Buffy, being a woman, it's okay.
I guess we just have different definitions of misogyny.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

EVIL UU
: Stop the whitewashing, please, it's ridiculous. Being a disgusting monster is what makes Spike, well...Spike. Take that away and it's not Spike anymore.

Thankfully, Joss Whedon thinks differently.

From his "Write Environment" interview:

http://icafreak.livejournal.com/267794.html

Jeff: So when did you realize that Spike was more then just a villain?

Joss: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Um, Spike was ya know, Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually and then ya know, James just brought and then kept on bringin'. So, it just, it was a pretty gradual process but it was always happening.

Jeff: A unique transition in that character from just a villain to almost the typical anti-hero. And yet never completely there.

Joss: Well, as a villain he was, ya know the Master that we started with was a straight up villain like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was, I said ok great and, and Mark, Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain who, that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly 'oh I'm such a bad ass' and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire, so from the very beginning the idea was well he's not just, ya know a cardboard. He's, he's, he's gonna have levels to play. Um, how many I didn't at the time realize, but ah, in a way he, he really didn't change that much. Ah, he's a character that I always liked a little bit more then Angel because-

Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

Joss: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time ya know he was, ya know he chose to have a soul.

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=10218]Moscow Watcher[/MENTION]

Joss loves his torture-porn. He loved writing Dark Willow and Buffy crying her eyes out while being taken from behind on that catwalk. As a writer he quoted many times that he loves writing villains and that people find normal relationship 'boring'. it does not make what he loves to write morally acceptable or even likeable. I don't know. Joss likes Loki too - listed him together with Spike - and should it make me as an audience accept Loki as 'more than just a villain'? Maybe it works for some. Does not work for me.

 

[EVIL UU]

It's pretty clearly stated that Drusilla is the dominant and the one who initiated him to SM stuff. Just take a look at her relationship with Angel, you'll feel she wasn't particularly disgusted.

SM stuff

OK, now I'm officially agitated.

What Buffy and Spike, Angel and Dru practice is not "SM stuff". They abuse each other, plain and simple. BDSM is not abuse, it's safe, sane and consensual by the very definition. They don't talk limits, they don't use safe words or other means of stopping the scene and there's virtually no aftercare. "There's no love in their punches."

It's one of the things I really dislike about BtVS and Angel, both shows use certain symbols associated with BDSM and completely ignore everything else, spreading misinformation and nonsense ( which is later xeroxed in goblets of shitty fan fiction stories because doing some elementary research is too much for your average fic writer I suppose )

he was soulless, had no moral compass, he couldn't understand how that was wrong

it was a personal situation. He thought that if pushed things a bit, Buffy would be back to being physical with him

Allow me not to give a shit about his motives, how does it even make it better? Let's focus on the victim here.

Rape is usually about power, not misogyny.

Not in Spike's case. It's about him and about his pleasure. He reduces women, Buffy included, to a piece of meat for him to **** and get his fix. He shags a robot because what's the difference? He doesn't see women as human beings, it's either meat or goddess for this sod, if that's not misogyny then I don't know what is. Also, one more quote:

What the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women? What the hell does it take? Why do you bitches torture me?

He says that to his ex, current and future girlfriend. No further commentary required.

as did Angel

Hey, don't drag me into your pointless, petty shipping war, I despise both of those wankers equally.

*raises white flag*

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] - many great stories are "torture-porn", as you call it - stories about enormous sacrifices, terrible heartbreaks and impossible choices.

Writing villains is cathartic - a writer can channel his own frustrations into a character's actions and/or diathribes.

In a work of fiction, people do find normal relationships boring. "All happy families..." etc. Besides, BtVS is a heroic epic where characters are larger that life, their mistakes are larger than life. From the RL viewpoint, all BtVS characters should be in jail.

And I'm ready to bet that in "The Avengers-2" Loki will make his first steps on the road of redemption 🙂

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 AM ----------

EVIL UU disagrees: The work of art speaks for itself, what creators say outside of it is completely irrelevant. I ignore any and all claims or arguments that are not based on the actual work itself. The creator can change his mind, the work is eternal ( unless you're G

Fair enough. Let's agree to disagree! 🙂

 

[Cheese Slices]

OK, now I'm officially agitated.

What Buffy and Spike, Angel and Dru practice is not "SM stuff". They abuse each other, plain and simple. BDSM is not abuse, it's safe, sane and consensual by the very definition. They don't talk limits, they don't use safe words or other means of stopping the scene and there's virtually no aftercare. "There's no love in their punches."

I was only talking about Dru and Angel, not Buffy and Spike. The first two being evil and pretty twisted, they enjoyed abusing and hurting each other.
Buffy and Spike is another matter, but it always seemed to me that it wasn't the sex itself that was unhealthy but what Buffy made/thought of it. But I'm getting side-tracked here, since we were talking about Spike's possible misogyny and I was just saying he wasn't abusing Dru.

It's one of the things I really dislike about BtVS and Angel, both shows use certain symbols associated with BDSM and completely ignore everything else, spreading misinformation and nonsense ( which is later xeroxed in goblets of shitty fan fiction stories because doing some elementary research is too much for your average fic writer I suppose )

Well BDSM became something couples can do and that is considered as "fun" but if you take the original meaning, it's about having pleasure by hurting others and yourself. Besides, that wasn't really the point, and I wouldn't have had a pointless lesson on BDSM.

Allow me not to give a shit about his motives, how does it even make it better? Let's focus on the victim here.

Well since we were talking about him being a misogynist or not, I focused on him. Have you forgotten what were talking about or is it me who doesn't get it ?

Not in Spike's case. It's about him and about his pleasure. He reduces women, Buffy included, to a piece of meat for him to **** and get his fix. He shags a robot because what's the difference? He doesn't see women as human beings, it's either meat or goddess for this sod, if that's not misogyny then I don't know what is.

Yeah sure, he's the one who used Buffy for sex 🙄 If he just wanted sex, why did he stay with same woman for 100 years, taking care of her for years when she gets sick ? Why changing who he is and fighting his nature, although he thinks she'll never love him or even be with him ? Why bother to do anything for women, since they're only "a piece of meat" ?
Why making the robot resemble her, giving it informations on her friends and family ? And why being willing to sacrifice his life to protect her and her sister, and then taking care of the latter when she's dead ? No he doesn't see her as a person and doesn't love her at all.

Also, one more quote:

He's talking about having a sucky love life, and is extremely angry. I guess if he had been a woman and had said all men are bastards it would've been fine. Oh well...

Hey, don't drag me into your pointless, petty shipping war, I despise both of those wankers equally.

I didn't drag you into anything, I was just trying to make a point. I know you don't like any of them (who do you like, that I'm curious about).

*raises white flag*

I never realized it was war (although you seem pretty ...passionate on the subject 😛)

 

[white avenger]

Here's another Spike/Angel question, but one that isn't really a Spuffy vs Bangel one.

Which vampire do you think benefited the most from his relationship with Buffy, and why?

Angel, who was dragged out of a filthy alley and inspired to become a hero and a defender of the helpless?

Spike, who made the transformation from monster to hero and Champion of the Battle Of The Hellmouth?

And remember, this is not a "who loved who the most" question. Both men were influenced and inspired by our favorite Slayer. Which one benefited the most from his time spent with Buffy?

(Just in case anyone might have forgotten what the original question was)

 

[Cheese Slices]

Sorry, got a little side-tracked 😀

So , it's a tough one, but I'd say Spike. Not only has he gone from evil to soulful world savior but he also, contrary to Angel, really came from his love for Buffy. Don't get me wrong, Buffy gave Angel the strength of becoming someone other than a homeless rat eater, but it's eventually by leaving her that he can become a fully fleshed character. (Also I don't I'll ever be able to find him falling in love with a 14 year-old sucking a lollipop not creepy). Spike, on the other hand, became a champion with Buffy on his side: she made him grow whereas her relationship with Angel prevented both of them to evolve.

 

[Kairos]

Actually, @CheeseSlices, I can think of more than one occasion in which Spike expressed his disgust with all "you bloody women", and that's without even considering his repeated use of female-specific insults, which are by nature misogynistic. The rape of a woman is also inherently misogynistic, precisely because it's about power, and the rapist believes it's his right to use his superior physical strength against her. Spike's 'respect' for female characters is always reserved for the ones who can beat him in a fight, or the ones who stroke his ego by being noticeably weaker than him.

Buffy's violent or condescending reactions to Spike's shenanigans are not comparable. They don't qualify as misandry (the word you were looking for) because they're tailored to him, not to males.

Glossing over his perpetually evident rage at females and trying to write it off as a you-say-potato is a slap in the face to true respect for womanhood. Stop doing it.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Actually, @CheeseSlices, I can think of more than one occasion in which Spike expressed his disgust with all "you bloody women", and that's without even considering his repeated use of female-specific insults, which are by nature misogynistic.

Apart from "bitch", I can't recall any of them, and even then, female characters use that word a lot too: are they misogynists ? I'm not a native speaker so I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that it's not used to insult womanhood anymore, but rather a particular woman, because of her personality and so on...

The rape of a woman is also inherently misogynistic, precisely because it's about power, and the rapist believes it's his right to use his superior physical strength against her. Spike's 'respect' for female characters is always reserved for the ones who can beat him in a fight, or the ones who stroke his ego by being noticeably weaker than him.

Well, if he respects women who are stronger, equal, and weaker than him, that makes a respectable amount of respect. And I don't think that he respects weaker women because they stroke his ego: just look at his interaction with Tara in Spiral.
Also, again, men are raped as well.

Buffy's violent or condescending reactions to Spike's shenanigans are not comparable. They don't qualify as misandry (the word you were looking for) because they're tailored to him, not to males.

The same goes for Spike when he's mad at Dru, Harmony or Buffy (in general).

Glossing over his perpetually evident rage at females and trying to write it off as a you-say-potato is a slap in the face to true respect for womanhood. Stop doing it.

I'll just stop giving my opinion then. 😕 I'm just tired of people pretending to be feminists and treating women as little fragile things unable to take care of themselves.

 

[brinkster130]

While this discussion has taken an interesting turn, let's try and stay on topic please. 🙂

If you with to discuss Spike and whether or not he is misogynistic feel free to start a thread for that and pull over any posts needed. 😉

 

[Robb Stark]

If I can weigh in here, I don't think there's anyway Spike is a misogynist. I know I picked Angel as my answer to this question, but Spike was changed tremendously by what he went through with Buffy. And I think that's kind of the key here.

Spike didn't hate women. Sure, he was a dick to Harmony, Dru, Buffy and a million others, but that's because he's a vampire. At the time, he had no soul. He was a jerk. Man or woman made no difference. In the episode commentary about the rape scene, Joss Whedon spoke about how Spike, without a soul, didn't understand the boundaries of his relationship with Buffy. I don't think it had much to do with her being a woman. If Spike was gay, he would have done the same thing to a guy.

It was Spike's time with Buffy that changed him, and made him, well, less of a jerk. Especially after he regains his soul. I still pick Angel for the purposes of the question though.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

White Avenger
(Just in case anyone might have forgotten what the original question was)

I reread the thread and noticed that people reply from different POVs. From evil Spike's POV, of course he devolved into a Slayer's puppy. 😀

ladydorotea agrees: I ought to say that you and me define our torture-porn differently. For me it is a twist that is entirely on the negative emotional spectrum that is done entirly for titillation and does not bring cathartic relief.

Turns out, we define torture-porn the same way. I've got confused because you applied the term torture-porn to Joss' work. I didn't realise you find his stories being "entirely on the negative emotional spectrum that is done entirely for titillation and does not bring cathartic relief". Let's agree to disagree here.

 

[ladydorotea]

I reread the thread and noticed that people reply from different POVs. From evil Spike's POV, of course he devolved into a Slayer's puppy.

Yup, the whole thread title was designed to cause confusion and dissent - as I pointed out originally. 😉 'Benefited personally ' is heavily biased approach, and relies on what (1) individual character thinks as beneficial at a given moment in his career (2) what a forum reader defines as beneficial, (3) what a writer thinks is beneficial to write from story development Pov. These are three different animals and each can be discussed indefinitely - if one desired to spend time on that. Which I do not.

Turns out, we define torture-porn the same way. I've got confused because you applied the term torture-porn to Joss' work. I didn't realise you find his stories being "entirely on the negative emotional spectrum that is done entirely for titillation and does not bring cathartic relief". Let's agree to disagree here.

I did not say that torture-porn was all that Whedon ever wrote. He has had his great moments - but he also happened to produce quite a few mediocre works and much of the stuff that did not work at all ( for me at least) was heavily loaded with torture-porn for torture-porn sake. Thus what I was saying was that Joss , IMHO, is renown for shooting himself in the foot when he gets carried away with loads and loads of universal misery/nihilism just for the sake of 'being original' and standing out in the crown of modern (western) tv/movie writers. The tv culture here is so heavy on 'happy endings', glossed over problems, candy-land-manufactured, well-rounded, well-adjusted, 'happy happy' characters - often times also loaded to the brim with religious references - that I can understand one authors revolutionary drive to 'break out' by producing stuff that is controversial, not 'politically correct' and in all other way is not designed to 'please the masses'. The problem though is, that the said author often spills the baby out of the basin together with the dirty water of overused cliches - and produces works that are so heavy on universal despair, nihilism, and denial of any hope that the torture-porn overload becomes a turn off - even for his most ardent fans. Me being one of them. Thus when I say 'Joss loves his torture porn and his villains' I mean he loves his 'fenichki' with nihilism, discontent and hopelessness too much for me to want to follow him everywhere - or to put much weight into his opinion of loving the 'edgy characters' the most. Gosh, he loves Andrew and the Cheeseman too. (And no, I don't think that Loki should be redeemed.)

 

[white avenger]

Yup, the whole thread title was designed to cause confusion and dissent

In fact, the thread was based on a legitimate question, since both Angel and Spike changed and evolved into better men over the course of the two series, and a large portion of that evolution was directly related to their association with Buffy Summers. There was no intention to cause confusion or dissent in any way, and the subject matter is no more controversial than several other threads currently active. Furthermore, I find the suggestion that I would start this or any other thread merely for the purpose of causing dissent among the members more than a little bit offensive. But, if you find the subject so confusing and unpleasant, please feel free to bypass this thread entirely in favor of any that you might more to your liking.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]
I agree that we can discuss the topic without confusion and dissent. Still, question about POV remains.

I think that from Angelus' and evil Spike's POV, both vampires got nothing but torture from their relationship with Buffy.

From souled Spike's POV, he benefitted more.

From Angel's POV on TV, he, Angel, benefitted more - because Angel thought that Spike was wasting his unlife while he, Angel, has a goal.

From Angel's POV in comics, right now Angel is full of guilt and thinks that he only brings pain to those who love him.

From Buffy's POV - again, it depends on the timeline. I don't want to elaborate, because it means opening a can of worms again.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]
I agree that we can discuss the topic without confusion and dissent. Still, question about POV remains.

I think that from Angelus' and evil Spike's POV, both vampires got nothing but torture from their relationship with Buffy.

From souled Spike's POV, he benefitted more.

From Angel's POV on TV, he, Angel, benefitted more - because Angel thought that Spike was wasting his unlife while he, Angel, has a goal.

From Angel's POV in comics, right now Angel is full of guilt and thinks that he only brings pain to those who love him.

From Buffy's POV - again, it depends on the timeline. I don't want to elaborate, because it means opening a can of worms again.

Agreed, point of view is a part of the discussion, but the question was, which vampire do YOU think benefited from his association with Buffy? Certainly, Spike, Angel, and Buffy herself would have an opinion in the matter, but theirs aren't the ones that matter here.