Who accepted the call to fight evil more altruistically?

[Xin Rong]

I've been thinking about this for a while. Buffy is a hero, she accepts her destiny and chooses to fight evil. Angel seeks redemption and fights evil. But! Their team members only do so by association and their innate desires to do 'good'.

So out of all the people who aren't called, who do you think does it for the sake of fighting evil and doing good.

Personally, I've had internal debates about this for years, but I've come to the conclusion that it is Cordelia. She helps the scoobies for no selfish reason, she's not their friend and barely an associate, but yet she's there all the time.

Later in Angel, she helps Angel, with somewhat selfish motivations, but then when she gets the visions she fights... when the visions are hurting her because of Lilah she puts the cause first and ignores her pain... she continues to fight and becomes one of the most pivotal characters. For me Cordy seems like onne of the most selfish characters in the way she talks but she's the only one who seems to indepedently choose to fight evil, without the need for ties of friendship, ancient causes etc.

She ascended despite where she was headed, i.e. Angel, even though that was disastrous she chose to fight the good fight, without the responsibility of being the chosen one, or anything similar.

I know Xander and Willow do the same, but they do it for Buffy, at first, whereas Cordy just does it.

Fred is a close second, of course.

Thoughts?

If I had to pick a character to be ascended, really ascended, I'd pick Cordy!

 

[thetopher]

I have to agree. 🙂

Buffy's friends help because they love Buffy and hell, its exciting stuff to be doing in high school, which isn't the funnest place for them to be usually.
Fighting monsters is super-cool. Sign me up!

Giles and Wesley are of course trained from a young age. Duty is drilled into them.

But Cordilia helps out even though she likes high school, she gorgeous, rich, popular, she's at the top of the social ladder in highschool and appently has it made yet she helps out all the way through S2 (And gets very little credit for it from all the others, most of whom wonder why she's even around.)

Then in L.A- okay, it's a job to her, but Cordelia really could get any other job. She could be a waitress or something and it would probably be better paid (that's what half the waiting staff are in LA anyway- out of work actors).

And after the visions she keeps the true cost of them (the fact that their getting worse and will eventually leave her brain dead.) to herself, which is pretty selfless come to think of it.
And, in the end, even though she loves Angel she decides to accept her new duty and 'ascend' without telling him how she feels.

Man, all that and she still gets dumped on. 🙁 Poor Cordy.

Still, y'know, higher being now. So, big picture not so bad. 🙂

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I agree about Cordelia. Maybe at first she just wanted Buffy's protection, but she always came back to help out even when she didn't have to. I think a good example, is the scene in 'Graduation Day pt2' I think. Where she comes in all pissed about Wesley being fired and how it affects her, and Xander yells at her to either go away or stay and help cuz he doesn't have time for her shit. And so she stays to help, when she could have said eff you guys I'm leaving town. And at the end of Angel season 2, she had a chance to pass the visions onto Groo, but she chose not to even though they were killing her. And then she ascends because she thinks she will do more good that way, even though she had a chance to be happy with Angel. Not really sure of her reasons or motivation but she does it just because. Which is what I really like about the Cordelia character. She's not just a shallow, self centered person, she has a really good heart.

I know that Willow says that she wants to stay in Sunnydale to help fight evil, but I don't think her motivations are all about helping people. I think she wanted to stay close to Buffy, Oz and Xander and she mostly wanted to learn magic.

Xander, I think did it for Buffy and for the excitement/adventurous aspects of being in danger and saving people. I think it gives him an ego boost. I agree that Giles and Wesley also see it as a calling like Buffy since they are/were watchers.

Anya only does the right thing because it's the right thing to do during the final battle. other than that I don't think she really cares about saving people.

Riley...I'm not sure about his motivations. I think he just wants to be superman and that's the closest he can get is to train and fight demons.

Oz and Tara are motivated by Willow.

I think for everyone except Buffy, Angel, Cordy, Wesley and Giles, saving people is just the result of fighting evil and not really their motivation.

 

[bespangeled]

Well, this won't be popular, but I would say it's Spike. Cordelia starts with an edge - she's human. Even rich and indulged she has a moral compass - she knows the difference between good and evil and she knows that she wants to be on the good side of that compass.

William was a weak man. He was well off - he owned the house that his mother lived in with him (because the male always inherited). He had a carriage instead of using a hack, and his mother saw the same doctor that the Queen saw. He had nothing beyond material good, though - no strengths - just eyes tightly shut to keep from seeing that moral conundrums even existed.

Spike has no moral compass - he's the Big Bad, trying to outdo his renowned Sire, Angelus, the scourge of Europe. For him there is only a palette of evil, not a moral compass. Then he is the crippled vampire - selfish, self centered, and full of a sense of entitlement that the good guys have to help him, not because he deserves it but because they are good.

Season five Spike begins to remember what it was like to be a man, I think in large part because Buffy trusts him with Dawn and her mother. He's 'in love' with Buffy, but even when he was William love always kicked him in the butt and laughed at him. But Buffy knows he's a monster and treats him like a man. She allows him to help, she trusts him to protect Dawn. That's more real love (not romantic) than he ever got as a human when the most strenuous thing he risked was his mother not liking his poems.

Season 6 - Spike loves Buffy, as much as an unsoulled demon can love a human. It's not a healthy love, or even a sane love, but it is powerful. I don't want to get into discussing season six other than the fact that all the relationships blew up in very spectacular fashion. After Spike attempts to rape Buffy for intrinsically selfish reasons he goes to get his soul. I think the AR was the first time reality hit him - that trying not to be evil was not the same as being good. Hurting Buffy, whom he swore never to hurt, made him realize that he really was still evil and could not even trust himself.

Souled Spike returned, crazy. In a few weeks he was fighting against evil, fighting on the side of good, and in the end he chose to die to save Buffy and to save the world. He was brought back to life, spent time with Angel's team. And then he was willing to die again, once more fighting for good, fighting against evil.

(ducks into flak blankie and peers over the top)

 

[thetopher]

I see your point but respectfully disagree.
Spike does pretty much all his good deeds because of his love for Buffy, and for that reason alone.
He's not selfless at all, even when he gets a soul he comes back to Sunnydale because of his love for Buffy, dispite what he claims.
Spike doesn't even begin to fight for what's right just because until Angel S5, and even then its a work in progress. In the end when it comes down to it he takes he cue from Angel.

I mean, I love Faith, she's my favourite character on the show, but I'd never say that she ever fought for selfless reasons.
Faith does what she does because she loves it. And then after her turn to the dark side she fights to atone for her mistakes.

Cordelia all the way for me.
Then, as Xin Rong says, Fred is another strong contender, at least when she decides to stay with the gang after 'Fredless'. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

I see your point but respectfully disagree.
Spike does pretty much all his good deeds because of his love for Buffy, and for that reason alone.
He's not selfless at all, even when he gets a soul he comes back to Sunnydale because of his love for Buffy, dispite what he claims.
Spike doesn't even begin to fight for what's right just because until Angel S5, and even then its a work in progress. In the end when it comes down to it he takes he cue from Angel.

I mean, I love Faith, she's my favourite character on the show, but I'd never say that she ever fought for selfless reasons.
Faith does what she does because she loves it. And then after her turn to the dark side she fights to atone for her mistakes.

Cordelia all the way for me.
Then, as Xin Rong says, Fred is another strong contender, at least when she decides to stay with the gang after 'Fredless'. 🙂

But doesn't Cordy do what she does for love of Angel? If he wasn't in the picture then she would have gone on to be another struggling actress. It's Angel who inspires her, and makes her a better person until she is willing to accept turning her back on her dream and becoming part demon to withstand the side affects of the visions.

Spike chooses to burn to death. Yes, love of Buffy is part of it, making sure she survives one apocalypse. She has inspired the changes he has made. But he made the changes, just like Cordy did. When the time comes he gives himself to the flames, partly in order to save Buffy but knowing he will never see her again. And when Buffy tells him she love him, he corrects her. This wasn't done for a declaration of love from her. It was done to redeem himself.

Since we are including the other seasons of Angel, we also need to include season 5 - and you're right. That is where the biggest changes happen - that is where Spike begins to take ownership of his past. And once again he chooses to risk probable death in order to fight for what is right. The fact that Buffy and Angel influence him isn't really unique. There isn't a single character in the universe who changes in a vacuum...except Anya when her power center is destroyed.

I can definitely see why you would pick Cordy. But I'm not as sure about Fred. Compared to Spike and Cordelia, I don't see her giving up much. Illyria infected her - it wasn't her choice to change. Honestly, I see Fred as criminally under used, particularly in season 5.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I agree with Cordy but id also say the same for Gunn 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

But doesn't Cordy do what she does for love of Angel? If he wasn't in the picture then she would have gone on to be another struggling actress. It's Angel who inspires her, and makes her a better person until she is willing to accept turning her back on her dream and becoming part demon to withstand the side affects of the visions.

Spike chooses to burn to death. Yes, love of Buffy is part of it, making sure she survives one apocalypse. She has inspired the changes he has made. But he made the changes, just like Cordy did. When the time comes he gives himself to the flames, partly in order to save Buffy but knowing he will never see her again. And when Buffy tells him she love him, he corrects her. This wasn't done for a declaration of love from her. It was done to redeem himself.

Since we are including the other seasons of Angel, we also need to include season 5 - and you're right. That is where the biggest changes happen - that is where Spike begins to take ownership of his past. And once again he chooses to risk probable death in order to fight for what is right. The fact that Buffy and Angel influence him isn't really unique. There isn't a single character in the universe who changes in a vacuum...except Anya when her power center is destroyed.

I can definitely see why you would pick Cordy. But I'm not as sure about Fred. Compared to Spike and Cordelia, I don't see her giving up much. Illyria infected her - it wasn't her choice to change. Honestly, I see Fred as criminally under used, particularly in season 5.

I'm struggling to see the logic, Spike is one of the most selfish characters, and your argument only really applies to Cordelia in Angel, and even then it's seems a bit forced.

Everything Spike does is motivated by his love for Buffy - he does it for Buffy's approval - Cordy doesn't have those types of feelings for a long time, her decision to fight eviil has nothing to do with her eventual romantic inclinations towards Angell- and she chooses to deny her love for Angel for selfless reasons.

Also, even without Buffy in the picture, Spike has a soul after committing unspeakable crimes - part of his motivation must include a desire for redemption rather than just a desire to help people.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, doing something for love is not selfless. Love can, sometimes, be a self-indulgent emotion. It can be romantic, but I don't always agree that it's a heroic motivator.

Spike sacrificing himself at the end of S7 was a selfless moment, key word moment. But afterwards Spike hangs around to annoy Angel and then struggles to find direction about what to do with his like whenhe's made corporeal again. His finding a purpose to fight beyond Buffy is part of his arc, to fight because its the right thing to do is something he discovers.

Cordelia has friggin' years of acting relatively selflessly before she even has romantic feelings for Angel. Apart from her intiatal reaction/attraction to him those feelings don't matter to what she does herself.
Cordy doesn't have strong ties to the Scoobies, has everything to lose by associating with them (and she does eventually loses her social cliche, all her 'friends', and even her money), but does so anyway because she wants to help people.

The trend continues in Angel even before her feelings develop in S3. It could be argued that she's finding redemption herself, in a way. But being mean to people in high school isn't really comparable to 'atonement' really. Saving lives because you called people some names? I don't really buy it.

As she tells Harmony in S2, simply helping people, that act alone, fills an emptiness in her thats been there for a while. Cordelia feels better just by simply doing.

Cordilia helps because its the right thing to do, no other really strong motivator, not redemption, not duty, not revenge, not love/loyalty, not because she was chosen by some higher power to become a hot chick with superpowers. All that comes later. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

I'm struggling to see the logic, Spike is one of the most selfish characters, and your argument only really applies to Cordelia in Angel, and even then it's seems a bit forced.

Everything Spike does is motivated by his love for Buffy - he does it for Buffy's approval - Cordy doesn't have those types of feelings for a long time, her decision to fight eviil has nothing to do with her eventual romantic inclinations towards Angell- and she chooses to deny her love for Angel for selfless reasons.

Also, even without Buffy in the picture, Spike has a soul after committing unspeakable crimes - part of his motivation must include a desire for redemption rather than just a desire to help people.

Love - not romance.

Spike is completely selfish when we meet him. He becomes less selfish as the seasons go on. By the end of Angel he has sacrificed his life to save the world. Twice. Why does his motivation matter? The world was saved and it was a good thing for the people who lived there. I believe that people can have all kind of motivations - what you do is what counts.

Why does it matter that he loves Buffy when he first dies (BTVS)? Is love a disqualifier of some sort? Don't most people want approval from someone they love? Love is not romance, and in season seven there really was no romance but there was love. Buffy said he was in her heart. Spike may well have had some serious unrequited love, but he never used it to manipulate. No matter how contrived you might find the season, that kind of love is canon. So, if he chooses to die to save her, and the rest of the world, because he loves her - that would be considered unselfish for any other character.

Willow loved Xander in a unique way from all the things they had been through - if she tries to help him does it count? What if Giles tries to help Buffy? At what point does loving someone become a bad reason to do something good?

I used Cordelia mainly because I see that Angel becomes pivotal to her- love, not romance again. Angel also loved Wes and Gunn, but Cordy was there first - and Cordy reshaped her whole life for Angel. They loved each other but they were not in love.

Does that make more sense?

 

[thetopher]

Love - not romance.

Spike is completely selfish when we meet him. He becomes less selfish as the seasons go on. By the end of Angel he has sacrificed his life to save the world. Twice. Why does his motivation matter? The world was saved and it was a good thing for the people who lived there. I believe that people can have all kind of motivations - what you do is what counts.

Why does it matter that he loves Buffy when he first dies (BTVS)? Is love a disqualifier of some sort? Don't most people want approval from someone they love? Love is not romance, and in season seven there really was no romance but there was love. Buffy said he was in her heart. Spike may well have had some serious unrequited love, but he never used it to manipulate. No matter how contrived you might find the season, that kind of love is canon. So, if he chooses to die to save her, and the rest of the world, because he loves her - that would be considered unselfish for any other character.

Willow loved Xander in a unique way from all the things they had been through - if she tries to help him does it count? What if Giles tries to help Buffy? At what point does loving someone become a bad reason to do something good?

I used Cordelia mainly because I see that Angel becomes pivotal to her- love, not romance again. Angel also loved Wes and Gunn, but Cordy was there first - and Cordy reshaped her whole life for Angel. They loved each other but they were not in love.

Does that make more sense?

Sorry bud, but if you read the intial post carefully, the question is all about motivation and nothing else. 🙂

Every good character on the show is heroic, every character fights for whatever reason. Their actions speak to that, but motivators do matter. We're not talking about degrees of heroism or points scoring or how many times they saved the world. If that were the question then it would be Buffy, then Angel, end of.

Who's motivations are the most altruistic is the question that's being posed here.

Who is the most selfless in their motivations, who isn't chosen to fight, or a best friend of a chosen, or bound by duty or love or a desire to atone for the awful things they did.

Who helps simply because it is right?


Also, I'm gonna throw Lorne into the ring here, he's a pretty strong contender, at least after his club gets blown up again.
The guy could've run for the hills but he stayed to help without having that many close ties to the group. He wears the responsibility lightly but really, he has no training or natural fighting abilities yet he gives it all he's got. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah, doing something for love is not selfless. Love can, sometimes, be a self-indulgent emotion. It can be romantic, but I don't always agree that it's a heroic motivator.

Spike sacrificing himself at the end of S7 was a selfless moment, key word moment. But afterwards Spike hangs around to annoy Angel and then struggles to find direction about what to do with his like when he's made corporeal again. His finding a purpose to fight beyond Buffy is part of his arc, to fight because its the right thing to do is something he discovers.

Cordelia has friggin' years of acting relatively selflessly before she even has romantic feelings for Angel. Apart from her intiatal reaction/attraction to him those feelings don't matter to what she does herself.
Cordy doesn't have strong ties to the Scoobies, has everything to lose by associating with them (and she does eventually loses her social cliche, all her 'friends', and even her money), but does so anyway because she wants to help people.

The trend continues in Angel even before her feelings develop in S3. It could be argued that she's finding redemption herself, in a way. But being mean to people in high school isn't really comparable to 'atonement' really. Saving lives because you called people some names? I don't really buy it.

As she tells Harmony in S2, simply helping people, that act alone, fills an emptiness in her thats been there for a while. Cordelia feels better just by simply doing.

Cordilia helps because its the right thing to do, no other really strong motivator, not redemption, not duty, not revenge, not love/loyalty, not because she was chosen by some higher power to become a hot chick with superpowers. All that comes later. 🙂

What Buffy and Spike shared wasn't romance. In fact, I don't think it ever was. But it was love - that is shown in his actions in season 7. Love isn't selfish. Spike was there for her - as Giles said, they relied on each other and he never let her down. There was no romance and no chance for romance.

Dawn wanted to jump because she loved Buffy - Buffy jumped because she love Dawn. How is the fact that they loved each other more selfish than people who would jump without loving?

Yes, after Spike is brought back to life again, he was snarky and bad tempered, and all too intuitive at times. His barbs can hurt. Is civility a necessary part of selfless love? He was a vampire who was pretty newly souled - as you say "His finding a purpose to fight beyond Buffy is part of his arc, to fight because its the right thing to do is something he discovers." I agree, and Spike could still be abrasive at times, and intuitive at others, and that probably would never change. Annoying people can love.

Much as I love Cordy, I don't think Cordy is a saint who comes to the library because it is her holy mission. Queen C obviously likes working in the library and she does what she wants. Including skipping a fight to get a bikini wax. 😀

Her time with Angel is when she really begins to mature. She and Angel do grow to love each other - it's just not a romantic love. Look at all the things that make up love - caring what happens, trying to help, worrying, laughing, joking, kicking someone in the butt if needed, trust, knowing that person will be there for you no matter what. That's Buffy and Spike as well, just in different packages.

Sadly they have three years together and that's all (except for one visit that makes me cry and want to agree it is probably Cordy).

Cordy help because it feels right to her as you said - and she also loves Angel. Isn't love a good thing? So why does Spike get disqualified from any credit because he loves Buffy?

---------- Post added at 03:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 AM ----------

Sorry bud, but if you read the intial post carefully, the question is all about motivation and nothing else. 🙂

Every good character on the show is heroic, every character fights for whatever reason. Their actions speak to that, but motivators do matter. We're not talking about degrees of heroism or points scoring or how many times they saved the world. If that were the question then it would be Buffy, then Angel, end of.

Who's motivations are the most altruistic is the question that's being posed here.

Who is the most selfless in their motivations, who isn't chosen to fight, or a best friend of a chosen, or bound by duty or love or a desire to atone for the awful things they did.

Who helps simply because it is right?


Also, I'm gonna throw Lorne into the ring here, he's a pretty strong contender, at least after his club gets blown up again.
The guy could've run for the hills but he stayed to help without having that many close ties to the group. He wears the responsibility lightly but really, he has no training or natural fighting abilities yet he gives it all he's got. 🙂

I think Cordy loves Angel - in a selfless friend sort of way. But overall she is more realistically giving for a longer time, to I can go with that. I just don't see altruism as disconnection. That would make Lorne more altruistic in season 5, and I think he's just more disconnected. Interesting concept. I am so much more inclined to see taking action to right a wrong, and/or help a friend as more altruistic than sending 20$ to PBS. 😕

It doesn't answer my - why does love disqualify you question, because in this arena any reward, even friendly love returned would disqualify you. So Angel wanting the Shanshu makes him less altruistic than Spike who just wants to redeem himself by helping others as long as he can. I am still curious as to why loving Buffy unrequitedly and supporting her generally disqualifies Spike. Another thread, apparently.🙄

Yeah - I will agree on Cordy being the most altruistic in the way that you showed me the the OP worked. And I love Cordy, so that isn't hard. 😀

 

[thetopher]

It doesn't answer my - why does love disqualify you question, because in this arena any reward, even friendly love returned would disqualify you. So Angel wanting the Shanshu makes him less altruistic than Spike who just wants to redeem himself by helping others as long as he can. I am still curious as to why loving Buffy unrequitedly and supporting her generally disqualifies Spike. Another thread, apparently.🙄
😀

Hey, I'm not getting at Spike at all.

I disqualified Xander and Giles and Angel and Faith pretty darn quickly as well because I don't think their motivators are selfless- they do them for a variety of reasons. All these reasons are understandable, noble even, but they aren't inherently altruistic.

It's not all about Spike, y'know. 😛

Oh, and we both know that I don't buy into Shanshu and after S2 neither does Angel- he accepts that fighting to atone is just not enough. After this I believe he fights because its the right thing to do.
But ultimately its Buffy that puts him on that path, his love of Buffy that makes him realise that he can be more than just a monster or a outcast. She inspires him. 🙂


I would also argue that out of the Scoobies, Willow truly wants to help fight evil for the sake of it.
She, of course, is tied to her friends by love and wanting to help them, but she still selflessly gives up an opportunity to get a first rate education at any of the top universities in the world and give up a promising future to stay in her home town and help fight the good fight.
(And in a way, its Faith that inspires Willow, or at least crystalises for her Willow's decision to stay and fight evil in 'Choices')

 

[bespangeled]

Hey, I'm not getting at Spike at all.

I disqualified Xander and Giles and Angel and Faith pretty darn quickly as well because I don't think their motivators are selfless- they do them for a variety of reasons. All these reasons are understandable, noble even, but they aren't inherently altruistic.

It's not all about Spike, y'know. 😛

Oh, and we both know that I don't buy into Shanshu and after S2 neither does Angel- he accepts that fighting to atone is just not enough. After this I believe he fights because its the right thing to do.
But ultimately its Buffy that puts him on that path, his love of Buffy that makes him realise that he can be more than just a monster or a outcast. She inspires him. 🙂


I would also argue that out of the Scoobies, Willow truly wants to help fight evil for the sake of it.
She, of course, is tied to her friends by love and wanting to help them, but she still selflessly gives up an opportunity to get a first rate education at any of the top universities in the world and give up a promising future to stay in her home town and help fight the good fight.
(And in a way, its Faith that inspires Willow, or at least crystalises for her Willow's decision to stay and fight evil in 'Choices')

So everyone is connected and they are all doing stuff for each other. I see Spike (season 7) as in the same category. If intent were all that mattered I would give him more time. But until he got his soul his attempts to do good were selfishly motivated by demon love (unhealthy, obsessive, meant for other demons) regardless of intent.

I agree that Buffy is the sun. moon and stars to both vamps. She affected them both for different reasons but she made them both better men. Buffy is the moral core of all of BTVS, IMO. She is the only one who routinely takes huge risks regardless of whether she even knows the person benefiting. Maybe it should be her, actually.

Of course it's not all about Spike. He just happened to be the one with the most impressive arc from evil to good, IMO. So I nominated him and then found out I was using the wrong ruler.

As for the Shanshu - just finished watching Destiny earlier tonight. I have Shanshu on the brain.

 

[white avenger]

Trace one's actions far enough back, and EVERYBODY does what they do for some reason beyond just "it was the right thing to do." Maybe it goes so far back that it's when you were a kid, eager to earn your parents' praise, or, let's be honest, avoid the punishment if you didn't. Having said that, I think that probably the person closest to doing what was right, simply because it was the right thing to do was...

Anya

"Huh?" you might gasp. Well, take a look at her actions. What did she ever gain for fighting with the Scoobies, beyond an early death (Okay, she was literally the oldest living person, besides Illyria, on either series, but she gave up her immortality in Season 7, believing that it would cost her her life, in order to "take back" the deaths of a houseful of fraternity boys. She gave up her immortality TWICE. She stayed and fought against the minions of the First Evil when common sense would have told her that doing so would almost certainly cost her, and all of the other defenders, their lives.
Sure, in her business dealings, she was all about the end profit, but, in the end, Anya made the decision to stand and fight when there was no real reason for her to do so other than that it was what needed doing.

Of course, Spike was a very close second...

 

[Xin Rong]

Trace one's actions far enough back, and EVERYBODY does what they do for some reason beyond just "it was the right thing to do." Maybe it goes so far back that it's when you were a kid, eager to earn your parents' praise, or, let's be honest, avoid the punishment if you didn't. Having said that, I think that probably the person closest to doing what was right, simply because it was the right thing to do was...

Anya

"Huh?" you might gasp. Well, take a look at her actions. What did she ever gain for fighting with the Scoobies, beyond an early death (Okay, she was literally the oldest living person, besides Illyria, on either series, but she gave up her immortality in Season 7, believing that it would cost her her life, in order to "take back" the deaths of a houseful of fraternity boys. She gave up her immortality TWICE. She stayed and fought against the minions of the First Evil when common sense would have told her that doing so would almost certainly cost her, and all of the other defenders, their lives.
Sure, in her business dealings, she was all about the end profit, but, in the end, Anya made the decision to stand and fight when there was no real reason for her to do so other than that it was what needed doing.

Of course, Spike was a very close second...

Interesting spin, I wrote Anya off but you've convinved me that was a bit of a mistake, she does become somewhat selfless in She and beyond...


I will never agree with you about Spike though, he's just like the others, it's destiny, love, friendship, a desire for redemption, excitement etc. that motivate their motivations, rather than just it being the right thing to do: Cordy doesn't fight evil completely in an altruistic manner, which is why I asked who chose to fight more altruistically than asking who was truly altruistic, and in my view it is Cordy, she had nothing to gain from helping and fighting, she just did it because she wanted to help, even when she was a biatch of massive proportions.

 

[Blaze]

Wow, I can't believe I'm saying that, but [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]; I kinda agree about what you wrote about Anya. Prior to s7, no way in hell, but in s7 I don't think she stayed for Xander at all. And she kinda disliked most of the Scoobies so she certainly didn't stay for them.

Actually, you know what, Cordy and Anya have a LOT in common, especially early season Anya with late season Cordy. It's not surprising that these two came up in the thread. Both are not friends with the gang. Both dated Xander but in the end didn't stick with the gang because of him but because it was the right thing to do. Both started as shallow ***holes, and became really selfless.

Xander, I don't know what you do to your women but keep doing it cause it's working.

 

[thetopher]

So, Dawn's gonna turn into some self-sacrificing chick, huh? Interesting. 🙂

(Although after what she was prepared to do in 'The Gift' I'm pretty sure she's already there.)

I think Anya, in S7 alone, is a good contender for being very selfless, but on the other hand you could also argue that it fits her character of being directionless[/I in her life.

Anya was still figuring out what to do with her life now that she was without Xander, so she clung to what she knew best, hanging around people she known since she became human.

Then again S3 Anya would've run for the hills at the first sign of Apocolypse, so that's character growth. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Comments on this post
thetopher disagrees: Anya was in love with Xander, that's why she fought with the Scoobies.

"Altruism is when we act to promote someone else's welfare, even at a risk or cost to ourselves."

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/altruism/definition

No argument that Anya fought with the Scoobies at least partially, if not entirely, by acting to promote someone's (Xander's or even Andrew's) welfare even at a risk or cost to herself, in this case, her very life.

By the definition above, what Anya did is most definitely an altruistic act.

 

[bespangeled]

So, Dawn's gonna turn into some self-sacrificing chick, huh? Interesting. 🙂

(Although after what she was prepared to do in 'The Gift' I'm pretty sure she's already there.)

I think Anya, in S7 alone, is a good contender for being very selfless, but on the other hand you could also argue that it fits her character of being directionless[/I in her life.

Anya was still figuring out what to do with her life now that she was without Xander, so she clung to what she knew best, hanging around people she known since she became human.

Then again S3 Anya would've run for the hills at the first sign of Apocolypse, so that's character growth. 🙂

Character growth is not the issue, I am told. Anya killed thousands and never decided to quit (at first). Her energy center was destroyed and she tried desperately to get it back. Then she discovered sex, and finally love. Of course a point could be made that punishing the men who did evil to the ladies asking for help is completely altruistic. 🙄

She stayed human, and helped the man she loved, but I don't think it was altruism. After Xander left her she went back to being a demon, even slaughtered a frat house. It was only then that she truly became altruistic, IMO.