Who accepted the call to fight evil more altruistically?

[AnthonyCordova]

Um, I agree about Cordelia to a point. By the time things really get rolling on Angel she's fighting the good fight altruistically. But she resisted it for a long time too though didn't she? Early the first season of Angel she seemed like she didn't want to be there and she still held onto dreams to transition quickly into acting etc. She helped anyway, so maybe unconsciously the altruism was already there. But all of Buffy? Those first 3 seasons she was the epitome of selfish. My taxed (and maybe unreliable, I'll admit) memory seems to just recall that she didn't help at all s1... and in s2 and s3...I just remember her dragging her feet about everything.

So while I agree about Cordy for the majority of Angel, she definitely wasn't always that way. It seemed people were implying that.

 

[bespangeled]

My question has been niggling in my mind since I noted that this question conflates altruism with being disconnected from people. Cordy says she does what is right because it feels good. If we get down to it, isn't that a reward? In fact, isn't feeling good the same reward that all of those who fight get?

I love taking care of Connor - I feel good. Does that make taking care of Connor altruistic, or is pleasing an infant selfish? I just staked a bunch of vampires, and Buffy commented on my technique - I feel good. Is it altruistic only if you don't care about Buffy, or don't care about her appraisal?

Altruistic - Someone who is altruistic always puts others first. An altruistic firefighter risks his life to save another's life, while an altruistic mom gives up the last bite of pie so her kid will be happy.

This word comes from the Old French altruistic and means "other people" and before that the Latin alter, which means "other." Our current word comes from the nineteenth century and comes from philosophy. It means that it's important for people to be concerned with the good of others and to act unselfishly.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/altruistic

Is the mother selfish since she gets joy from giving her child a treat - she loves her child after all. Is the firefighter selfish because he is praised for his actions, even though he feels good?

I honestly don't see how those choices are opposites insofar as altruism is concerned. Both show the same unselfish concern for other people. Was Angel selfish to ask that he be hurt instead of Buffy early on in Surprise? He does love Buffy after all. Was Spike unselfish when he turned Ford, even though he knew he wouldn't get Buffy? He did what Ford asked for no personal reward.

If we want to decide who is the most altruistic I think we need a better definition. Ruling out anything that will please someone you care about or love seems ridiculous to me. As I said, I do think Cordy loves Angel (nonromantic again), but I don't see why - according to the standard given - her love would make her actions less altruistic.

 

[Xin Rong]

My question has been niggling in my mind since I noted that this question conflates altruism with being disconnected from people. Cordy says she does what is right because it feels good. If we get down to it, isn't that a reward? In fact, isn't feeling good the same reward that all of those who fight get?

I love taking care of Connor - I feel good. Does that make taking care of Connor altruistic, or is pleasing an infant selfish? I just staked a bunch of vampires, and Buffy commented on my technique - I feel good. Is it altruistic only if you don't care about Buffy, or don't care about her appraisal?

Altruistic - Someone who is altruistic always puts others first. An altruistic firefighter risks his life to save another's life, while an altruistic mom gives up the last bite of pie so her kid will be happy.

This word comes from the Old French altruistic and means "other people" and before that the Latin alter, which means "other." Our current word comes from the nineteenth century and comes from philosophy. It means that it's important for people to be concerned with the good of others and to act unselfishly.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/altruistic

Is the mother selfish since she gets joy from giving her child a treat - she loves her child after all. Is the firefighter selfish because he is praised for his actions, even though he feels good?

I honestly don't see how those choices are opposites insofar as altruism is concerned. Both show the same unselfish concern for other people. Was Angel selfish to ask that he be hurt instead of Buffy early on in Surprise? He does love Buffy after all. Was Spike unselfish when he turned Ford, even though he knew he wouldn't get Buffy? He did what Ford asked for no personal reward.

If we want to decide who is the most altruistic I think we need a better definition. Ruling out anything that will please someone you care about or love seems ridiculous to me. As I said, I do think Cordy loves Angel (nonromantic again), but I don't see why - according to the standard given - her love would make her actions less altruistic.

Yes Cordy loves Angel, but that is later in her narrative, she does not love him in Buffy and she does not immediately love him when she starts in Angel.

If you've seen Friends, and learned from the infinite wisdom of Phoebe, then you know that there is no such thing as a truly altruistic action, which is why I'm asking who is motivated by more altrustic motivations, and that for me is Cordy, as most of the time she isn't fighting for any particular reason other than she feels it's the right thing to do - she gives up her own time and puts herself in the line of fire for no other reason than it being the right thing to do and I don't think there's anyone else who does that to the same extent that Cordy does.

Using your analogy, Cordy isn't like the mother giving the child the last bit of food, she's more like a stranger sat at the next table in a restaurant, who for no maternal reason, gives her food to a stranger's child.

 

[thetopher]

My question has been niggling in my mind since I noted that this question conflates altruism with being disconnected from people. Cordy says she does what is right because it feels good. If we get down to it, isn't that a reward? In fact, isn't feeling good the same reward that all of those who fight get?

I love taking care of Connor - I feel good. Does that make taking care of Connor altruistic, or is pleasing an infant selfish? I just staked a bunch of vampires, and Buffy commented on my technique - I feel good. Is it altruistic only if you don't care about Buffy, or don't care about her appraisal?

Altruistic - Someone who is altruistic always puts others first. An altruistic firefighter risks his life to save another's life, while an altruistic mom gives up the last bite of pie so her kid will be happy.

This word comes from the Old French altruistic and means "other people" and before that the Latin alter, which means "other." Our current word comes from the nineteenth century and comes from philosophy. It means that it's important for people to be concerned with the good of others and to act unselfishly.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/altruistic

Is the mother selfish since she gets joy from giving her child a treat - she loves her child after all. Is the firefighter selfish because he is praised for his actions, even though he feels good?

I honestly don't see how those choices are opposites insofar as altruism is concerned. Both show the same unselfish concern for other people. Was Angel selfish to ask that he be hurt instead of Buffy early on in Surprise? He does love Buffy after all. Was Spike unselfish when he turned Ford, even though he knew he wouldn't get Buffy? He did what Ford asked for no personal reward.

If we want to decide who is the most altruistic I think we need a better definition. Ruling out anything that will please someone you care about or love seems ridiculous to me. As I said, I do think Cordy loves Angel (nonromantic again), but I don't see why - according to the standard given - her love would make her actions less altruistic.

Well, in that case there are no selfless acts, because even people who give to charity feel good about doing so. 🙂

It's an interesting philisophical question but, ultimately, I try to use 'real world' judgement when it comes to defining what aulturistic means.

And, for the record, I don't nessesarily think that one motivator is better than another, just different. I think lots of the characters are cool doing what they do.

I like Faith more than Buffy even though Faith slays because she loves it and doesn't really feel the whole 'crushing burden thing' like Buffy does, she does it, intially because she loves it.

Or, let me put it this way, is Buffy better because she was chosen instead of volenteering to fight the forces of darkness? Because she has to cope with all that added pressure, or is she worse because she really doesn't have that choice like her friends do. (because of her sense of responsibility, or destiny, or whatever?) Is it better to stay and fight by choice, for wahtever reason (friendship, love, atonement, adrenaline junky)

In Buffy's case you could argue either (as Buffy herself does) but she's still an admirable person for doing what she does (That's my opinion though, I've me people on these boards who think she's horrible, with a vast superiority complex)

I'm certainly not trying to imply that one person is better than another just because of their motivation. Overall you have to look at their actions over the entire show(s), how there struggle and overcome those difficulties set up by the drama, how strong they are in what they do, and even then its not as straight up as all that.

Otherwise there would a definitive list somewhere: Who's The Best? 😉

I seems to me (and some others clearly) Cordelia doesn't have an obvious 'I get this out of it/I have to do this' thing about her on Buffy. She just gets caught up in a lot of things and then finally decides to help (I'm talking about S2 here obviously, when she actually happens to help, but for no particular reason) that, to me, seems aultruistic.

I agree its not a constant thing with Cordelia, she rebels against it in S3 when she feels like she's betrayed (a nasty side-effect of betrayal that) but ultimately hangs around the group again because of her Wesley crush.
And in Angel she's very upfront about her own selfish motivations, but quickly comes to actually put her heart into the work, even before she's afflicted with the visions.

But I wouldn't really say 'Hey, Isn't Cordelia the bestest/most decent character on the show!' because I don't beleive that. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

Yes Cordy loves Angel, but that is later in her narrative, she does not love him in Buffy and she does not immediately love him when she starts in Angel.

If you've seen Friends, and learned from the infinite wisdom of Phoebe, then you know that there is no such thing as a truly altruistic action, which is why I'm asking who is motivated by more altrustic motivations, and that for me is Cordy, as most of the time she isn't fighting for any particular reason other than she feels it's the right thing to do - she gives up her own time and puts herself in the line of fire for no other reason than it being the right thing to do and I don't think there's anyone else who does that to the same extent that Cordy does.

Using your analogy, Cordy isn't like the mother giving the child the last bit of food, she's more like a stranger sat at the next table in a restaurant, who for no maternal reason, gives her food to a stranger's child.

That's cool. Cordy is an amazing woman. I don't see where is answer my larger question on the nature of altruism, but I already said I see Cordy as the person. No argument there.

But isn't it at all ironic that you mention Phoebe saying there is no such thing as a purely altruistic action and the same time say she is completely wrong?

 

[Xin Rong]

That's cool. Cordy is an amazing woman. I don't see where is answer my larger question on the nature of altruism, but I already said I see Cordy as the person. No argument there.

But isn't it at all ironic that you mention Phoebe saying there is no such thing as a purely altruistic action and the same time say she is completely wrong?

I see how it could seem that way, but what I'm saying is that Cordy does have some less than altruistic motivations that also contribute to her fighting the good fight, but generally speaking,she fights more for altruistic reasons than none-altruistic ones. She is not a saint though, and obviously the protection of Buffy, the wage that Angel pays her, and the self-worth that she recieves, are part of her motivation.

 

[thetopher]

We can see that there are degrees of altruism in all protagonist characters on both shows, but altruism isn't the be all and end all of character motivation.

It's admirable and worthy, but I understand other motivations more.
Doing something because its cool and you have superpowers, I get that.
Or doing it for love of somebody else, or because you feel so guilty that you screwed up so badly and want to try and make up for the things you did.

Perhaps its better to say that I find all these motivations more interesting than altruism.
Good thing that Cordelia's got all that other stuff that makes her interesting...and by that I totally mean her wit and personality. 😀

 

[Fuffy Baith]

The question is who accepts or makes the choice to fight for the good most altruistically. I guess the other question would be when they chose to fight evil? I agree that Anya at the end of S7 choses to fight because it's the right thing to do, but she doesn't start off that way. In 'Fear, Itself' she doesn't go to save everyone in the house, she says specifically 'we must save Xander'. She only hangs out with the Scoobies because of Xander, until S7.

Spike in S5 choses to do good things only to get closer to Buffy, S6 he gets his soul back not to save people but because he loves Buffy. It's not until he sacrifices himself in 'Chosen' that he does the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

Cordelia choses to help the Scoobies many times without ulterior motives, but sometimes she did it for protection and for Xander. On Angel she starts off helping people because she needs a job and then because she has the visions. But by the end of season 2 I think she realizes that she wants to help people because it's what she's meant to do.

At some point they all do things because it's the right thing to do. Does it matter that it may have taken them a while to get to that point? I'm not sure there is anyway who helps people at first just because it's the right thing to do.

It's a hard question to judge but I like hearing everyone's opinions and perspectives.

 

[Kana]

I think I struggle with this concept on a lot of levels, but I think the post above me more closely mirrors my own opinion.

One can judge and question many individuals motives for doing good. Is it innate? Is it out of a sense of duty etc?

I'm struggling to see how Cordy is more altruistic than the other Scoobies or Fang Gang. While she didn't ostensibly like the Scoobies, it's possible that her attraction to Xander played a part. I wasn't until the episode(two parter) when they kissed, that Cordy really started contributing in a real way to the Scooby Gang. Considering she she didn't really contribute that much after they split up, it's hard to argue that she was significantly if at all more altruistic.

For me, it's not something I care to quantify. I don't see how being 'called' or 'seeking redemption' somehow makes their intentions less pure. I mean even Cordy was doing good deeds partly because it was conducive to her sense of identity, such as feeling needed. However personally, I don't see a problem with this. Sometimes, we can be overly strict with our definition of 'good'. Sometimes it can be difficult to differentiate between doing something because it makes us feel good and doing it because it's right. As I think it's already been said, the two things are not always mutually exclusive.